Rail strikes discussion

[43066]

When I joined the railway less than 2 months ago, I knew strike action was brewing, I came into this with my eyes wide open. However the impact now is, my training has been extended by 2 weeks (I am on a training wage) and I will also loose nearly £150 for the 2 days I will not be attending work, I really really can't afford either. I know that my employer and others in this forum has said we must be kind, respect the wishes of those who choose not to strike, but when you see the vitriolic language of the last century used on here (scabs, strike breakers etc) and I know in my mess there are will be people who feel the same way... it makes for an uncomfortable situation.

I must ask, what exactly were you expecting? Ultimately you have chosen to join a heavily unionised industry at a time of industrial unrest. It would be wrong for anyone to suggest that strike breaking won’t cause many of your colleagues to loathe you. That is the simple reality of the situation. For that reason I would advise you to put your own thoughts to one side and go along with the strike.

If someone offered you extra money, and you needed it (or even if you didn’t) can you honestly say that you would turn it down? I don’t think many people would.

For strike breaking? Nope, not even if I was desperate. In the same way as I wouldn’t go and steal extra money. To me they’re morally equivalent.

It’s such a horrible situation. It won’t help with the sneers, but you should report any instances of intimidation to your line manager or HR department. TOCs will likely take a zero tolerance approach to any intimidation of workers.

Running into the office to complain about one’s colleagues is another way to find yourself with few friends on the operational railway. You also can’t report people for blanking you or wanting nothing to do with you.

We can debate the whys and wherefores on here until we’re blue in the face, but the best practical advice for someone working in that environment is to avoid the situation arising in the first place.

Not at all. They are still withdrawing their labour…unless I’ve missed something that says contingency guards are required to force all substantive guards to work trains rather than strike…

I can’t add anything to @windingroad ‘s excellent response to this really.

 

[Bluejays]

Not sure if it's actually come up yet. But what do people make of 'minimum service levels' . Personally I think it's a decent idea. Especially in areas where a significant proportion of workers, school students etc use the railway

 

[dk1]

Which makes you wonder why rail unions are so keen to see the industry totally nationalised when the better terms and conditions have come about because of rail franchises and more involved private sector operations.

I've said this all along. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[Iskra]

Your idiotic post didn't deserve a constructive response. Your suggestion that nobody wins if everyone gets a rise was idiotic. There are many factors that affect inflation, not just wages. The major factor at present of course is fuel.

So wage rises do cause inflation then…

Drop the insults.

 

[Starmill]

Awarding a slightly larger pay rise to the lowest paid quarter of workers is very very unlikely to be inflationary. They will spend the money on necessities whose supply chains usually exploit vast economies of scale, such as home electricity and food like bread and pasta. Obviously there's a little bit of risk with everything but it's just not that serious here. Loads of the price pressure is cost push rather than demand pull anyway, as the cheapest fossil fuel reserves dry up etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Government policy is to set the minimum wage at two thirds of the median, although disappointingly only for those who've reached their 23rd birthday. Over the next two years it will definitely hit £11 if the government stay on course. It is planned that then be uprated with CPI, RPI shouldn't be used for anything as it's been withdrawn.

Sounds positive, but I would agree there should not be any age split, it should be the same for everyone. Even kids doing paper rounds.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2022 ==

So wage rises do cause inflation then…

They do, but because wages are not the only cost to business (though the proportion varies) adding 10% to wages does not add 10% to inflation.

 

[Starmill]

Sounds positive, but I would agree there should not be any age split, it should be the same for everyone. Even kids doing paper rounds.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2022 ==



They do, but because wages are not the only cost to business (though the proportion varies) adding 10% to wages does not add 10% to inflation.

The Low Pay Commission have consulted on moving it down from 23 to 21, so this is likely to go ahead next year or the year after, but in my view it doesn't go far enough.

 

[Bluejays]

So wage rises do cause inflation then…

Drop the insults.

They are one of many factors in inflation. Your idiotic put down to the original poster made no note of this. It was patronising and factually lacking.

 

[Editrain2]

Is there a meeting today between RMT and gov?

Seems to be a thing in my work place today that there is

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I must ask, what exactly were you expecting? Ultimately you have chosen to join a heavily unionised industry at a time of industrial unrest. It would be wrong for anyone to suggest that strike breaking won’t cause many of your colleagues to loathe you. That is the simple reality of the situation. For that reason I would advise you to put your own thoughts to one side and go along with the strike.



For strike breaking? Nope, not even if I was desperate. In the same way as I wouldn’t go and steal extra money. To me they’re morally equivalent.



Running into the office to complain about one’s colleagues is another way to find yourself with few friends on the operational railway. You also can’t report people for blanking you or wanting nothing to do with you.

We can debate the whys and wherefores on here until we’re blue in the face, but the best practical advice for someone working in that environment is to avoid the situation arising in the first place.



I can’t add anything to @windingroad ‘s excellent response to this really.

I could not look my colleagues in the eye if I worked against my colleagues during industrial action. I would never abuse anyone that did but I certainly would have no interest in talking, helping or socialise with them.

 

[michael74]

I must ask, what exactly were you expecting? Ultimately you have chosen to join a heavily unionised industry at a time of industrial unrest. It would be wrong for anyone to suggest that strike breaking won’t cause many of your colleagues to loathe you. That is the simple reality of the situation. For that reason I would advise you to put your own thoughts to one side and go along with the strike.

If you had read my post you will note at no point did I say I was going to cross the picket line, your answer of don't have an opinion put up shut up or be loathed has validated my point.

Now where did I leave my donkey jacket and wood brazier....

 

[Iskra]

They are one of many factors in inflation. Your idiotic put down to the original poster made no note of this. It was patronising and factually lacking.

But the basic premise is factually correct, isn’t it?

I’ve just given you a current, real world example of inflation caused by giving lots of people cash for nothing.

If you want essays on economics, there are plenty out there without me providing them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2022 ==

I could not look my colleagues in the eye if I worked against my colleagues during industrial action. I would never abuse anyone that did but I certainly would have no interest in talking, helping or socialise with them.

Under any circumstances? What if someone was new and hadn’t joined a union yet?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

But the basic premise is factually correct, isn’t it?

I’ve just given you a current, real world example of inflation caused by giving lots of people cash for nothing.

If you want essays on economics, there are plenty out there without me providing them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2022 ==


Under any circumstances? What if someone was new and hadn’t joined a union yet?

New Colleagues know the benefits of a union no excuse. Same would apply. Its about knowing your colleagues have got your back. If some one is willing to go against a democratic vote I could never trust them again.

 

[Iskra]

New Colleagues know the benefits of a union no excuse. Same would apply. Its about knowing your colleagues have got your back. If some one is willing to go against a democratic vote I could never trust them again.

Okay, well I respect that you at least wouldn’t abuse someone for doing that.

 

[320320]

Why shouldn’t people take up the option to earn more money whilst keeping the railway moving?

You don’t know what these individuals’ personal circumstances are. Maybe they need the money, too.

If someone offered you extra money, and you needed it (or even if you didn’t) can you honestly say that you would turn it down? I don’t think many people would.


Not at all. They are still withdrawing their labour…unless I’ve missed something that says contingency guards are required to force all substantive guards to work trains rather than strike…


Surely you aren’t implying that people at your place of work are intimidating those that do not wish to strike?

If so, I’m sure the your company’s HR department might be interested to know who is doing the intimidating. They’ll be violating company policy and will likely face discipline.



It’s such a horrible situation. It won’t help with the sneers, but you should report any instances of intimidation to your line manager or HR department. TOCs will likely take a zero tolerance approach to any intimidation of workers.

I think some operators are offering those that do not wish to strike the option to work away from their usual place of work. Maybe see if this is an option, too?

Why shouldn’t people take up the option to earn more money whilst keeping the railway moving?

You don’t know what these individuals’ personal circumstances are. Maybe they need the money, too.

If someone offered you extra money, and you needed it (or even if you didn’t) can you honestly say that you would turn it down? I don’t think many people would.

I can safely say that I would not, under any circumstances break any strike action, especially that of my colleagues in order to feather my own nest. That is reprehensible and morally repugnant behaviour and would only be undertaken by people best described as parasites.

Surely you aren’t implying that people at your place of work are intimidating those that do not wish to strike?

I didn’t imply anything of the sort. I asked @yorkie a question regarding his reasons for leaving his previous union. He’s usually very prompt with his replies but maybe he’s missed that post.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Okay, well I respect that you at least wouldn’t abuse someone for doing that.

I wouldn't risk my career and certainly wouldn't abuse anyone and still would be professional but that would be it

 

[Gems]

And how precisely did their lower wages help them to eat, travel and find accommodation while they were in the UK? it certainly wasn't putting them on par with UK workers, as for your final worthless comment, you're on the wrong forum

Always worthless when you have lost the argument isn't it. The default position on these forums is go on the offensive when you are wrong. Not humility, no accepting another point of view, just go on the offensive.

 

[43066]

So wage rises do cause inflation then…

Drop the insults.

So do you turn down pay rises yourself due to your concerns about inflation? If the answer to that is “no”, it’s likely because your self interest isn’t necessarily aligned with wider economic considerations. In just the same way, unions are concerned with the interests of their members, not those of the wider economy.

In this case the pay “rise” will almost certainly still be loss in real terms earnings.

If you had read my post you will note at no point did I say I was going to cross the picket line, your answer of don't have an opinion put up shut up or be loathed has validated my point.

Fair enough.

I think that’s a sensible decision. I’m looking at it purely from the practical point of view for someone who is new to the industry. I appreciate the atmosphere on the railway is pretty toxic at the moment, hopefully it will improve in time.

Now where did I leave my donkey jacket and wood brazier....

It’s a bit hot for those!

I wouldn't risk my career and certainly wouldn't abuse anyone and still would be professional but that would be it

Same for me and for 99% of people I know in the industry.

 

[Bluejays]

But the basic premise is factually correct, isn’t it?

I’ve just given you a current, real world example of inflation caused by giving lots of people cash for nothing.

If you want essays on economics, there are plenty out there without me providing them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2022 ==


Under any circumstances? What if someone was new and hadn’t joined a union yet?

Your point was that a pay rise wouldn't make them any better off.,I disagree. Your delivery was also extremely patronising, didn't think the op deserved that.

Just as a small point. To save me trawling through too many papers. If you could signpost a few papers that suggest the current inflation problems are down to wage increases , I'd be very interested. I'd imagine most would be about fuel prices. Any papers than can attribute anything more than 2/3 % to wage increases would make for very interesting reading

 

[Gems]

I wouldn't risk my career and certainly wouldn't abuse anyone and still would be professional but that would be it

I really doubt it would matter to be honest. I mean I for one don't go to work to make friends, my friends are outside of the workplace. As long as the job is done, and done correctly, I couldn't care less if anyone spoke or didn't.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I really doubt it would matter to be honest. I mean I for one don't go to work to make friends, my friends are outside of the workplace. As long as the job is done, and done correctly, I couldn't care less if anyone spoke or didn't.

Even though we are a big depot there isn't many people who are disliked and there is a lot of social meetings trips etc. One of the reasons I love my job. I would be very surprised if anyone did go against the strikes but if they did I have already explained my reaction.

 

[Iskra]

So do you turn down pay rises yourself due to your concerns about inflation? If the answer to that is “no”, it’s likely because your self interest isn’t necessarily aligned with wider economic considerations. In just the same way, unions are concerned with the interests of their members, not those of the wider economy.

In this case the pay “rise” will almost certainly still be loss in real terms earnings.



Fair enough.

I think that’s a sensible decision. I’m looking at it purely from the practical point of view for someone who is new to the industry. I appreciate the atmosphere on the railway is pretty toxic at the moment, hopefully it will improve in time.



It’s a bit hot for those!



Same for me and for 99% of people I know in the industry.

I was originally replying to idealistic posts that advocated universal pay rises, which would contribute to inflation. I appreciate that may be hard to spot as it is now numerous posts ago.

 

[Gems]

Even though we are a big depot there isn't many people who are disliked and there is a lot of social meetings trips etc. One of the reasons I love my job. I would be very surprised if anyone did go against the strikes but if they did I have already explained my reaction.

I think you will find a lot of people will go against the strikes, and that number will increase the more it drags on. I think it was something like 20 days I lost in the DOO strike, at the end I was getting a bit desperate to be honest. If it hadn't been sorted when it did, I think I would have kaffled. So all I say to you is this. Don't be personal with people, don't take the bat and ball home if you see people not take the same line as you. You don't live in their shoes.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Awarding a slightly larger pay rise to the lowest paid quarter of workers is very very unlikely to be inflationary. They will spend the money on necessities whose supply chains usually exploit vast economies of scale, such as home electricity and food like bread and pasta. Obviously there's a little bit of risk with everything but it's just not that serious here. Loads of the price pressure is cost push rather than demand pull anyway, as the cheapest fossil fuel reserves dry up etc.

The problem is vast amounts of our economy are leveraged to low paid work because we have ended up with too much reliance on services. So if you bump up min wage (and it should be higher AFAIC) it feeds through quickly in the services arena. ie McDonalds are already on slim margins so £1 on min wage would have to be recovered through pricing of their products (yes they play around with offers but only to drive max income). Also low paid are nearly 20% of the workforce.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I think you will find a lot of people will go against the strikes, and that number will increase the more it drags on. I think it was something like 20 days I lost in the DOO strike, at the end I was getting a bit desperate to be honest. If it hadn't been sorted when it did, I think I would have kaffled. So all I say to you is this. Don't be personal with people, don't take the bat and ball home if you see people not take the same line as you. You don't live in their shoes.

In the whole of the Manchester depots out of 47 Strike Days ONE person came in and I wont be personal at all...They just wont exist a part from a Professional level. Just because I wont call people names does not change the fact I find Strike Breakers the lowest of the low.

 

[Iskra]

Your point was that a pay rise wouldn't make them any better off.,I disagree. Your delivery was also extremely patronising, didn't think the op deserved that.

Just as a small point. To save me trawling through too many papers. If you could signpost a few papers that suggest the current inflation problems are down to wage increases , I'd be very interested. I'd imagine most would be about fuel prices. Any papers than can attribute anything more than 2/3 % to wage increases would make for very interesting reading

If it was universal, it wouldn’t make anyone better off- was my original point. I’ve seen nothing since then to contest that and you have agreed that wage rises contribute to inflation. I’ve also given you a current example of widespread free cash hand outs causing inflation. I think you are just wasting my time.

I’m not interested in your opinion on how
I come across considering you can barely manage a post without an insult.

 

[43066]

I was originally replying to idealistic posts that advocated universal pay rises, which would contribute to inflation. I appreciate that may be hard to spot as it is now numerous posts ago.

Understood, in which case I’d agree with you.

 

[Gems]

In the whole of the Manchester depots out of 47 Strike Days ONE person came in and I wont be personal at all...They just wont exist a part from a Professional level. Just because I wont call people names does not mean I find Strike Breakers the lowest of the low.

Oh I can think of much lower people than someone who wants to feed his family and keep a roof over their heads. I wouldn't have issue with them either, and I never had issues with those who came in during the DOO strike.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Oh I can think of much lower people than someone who wants to feed his family and keep a roof over their heads.

Unions and colleagues provide support. Solidarity is strength. If people are severely struggling colleagues and the union will do our best to help as what was offered to the one person who broke the strike over the DOO Strikes. That person was offered extra hours and swaps by colleagues and management to not come in. He chose to come in and now to put it bluntly people see that person as a Pariah. Now as I have said I will not go name calling or abuse but Strike Breaking In my humble opinion is a morally bankrupt act.

 

[Bantamzen]

In the whole of the Manchester depots out of 47 Strike Days ONE person came in and I wont be personal at all...They just wont exist a part from a Professional level. Just because I wont call people names does not change the fact I find Strike Breakers the lowest of the low.

But you will still treat them differently as a result. We used to have this approach in our union, until we realised that positive discrimination in the workplace as a result of strike breaking was playing right into management hands. These days unions, reps and the members have to box a bit more clever than resort to the old tradition of playground politics.

But as I've said to others, just sit back and watch because this approach is exactly what the government wants.