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Rail strikes discussion

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TPO

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The concern is having an incompetent member of staff on the train will put passengers at risk. Safer to not run the service. Especially if you got two on a red. That could cause a SPAD.

Unless you want Guards who can't dispatch correctly ?

We tend to watch out for each other and understand how small mistakes happen. When I've got a bat on a red, the platform staff member is very grateful that I've just given them a quick prompt to check the signal. They are instantly remorseful and glad that we are watching each others backs.

It's hard to drop someone in the brown stuff so yes, many people will let something like that slide.

Should that happen ? Well, no. That should be reported and potentially someone is out of a job.

A question that is often asked in an interview is how you deal with someone who has just made a mistake. Do yo work as a team and help each other or do you report it and not care ?

It would be difficult to prove you reported it purely because that person was someone you disliked.

Hmmm, the thing is, either way it should be reported. Covering up for a "mate" in the first instance may feel right, but may not actually be doing either the person or the railway a favour at all. For all you know, that person may have something going on in their life which is effecting their concentration and that's the third time this shift they've done that; by reporting it they are relieved and hopefully get the break/support they need. And of course assuming the "mate" is in their TU, then their local rep should ensure they get dealt fairly with. It's also possible that they are a really nice decent person but they are just not cut out for the role and keep making mistakes, or their training was deficient. It's only when you see an accurate record you can identify this.

I've seen situations where a person who made a significant (safety critical) mistake appeared to have a clean record (i.e. what was reported) but anecdotally had "a record as long as your arm" so there was discomfort with their colleagues when the situation was treated as a first mistake (which from the point of view of the management/investigators, it was).


The NR dispute is also about and more importantly staff cuts in maintainance, (and we know what the result of that would be) if you are happy for maintainance to be cut back even further....fair enough !

that might be your perspective of matters. The inside story is very very different!




I need to call that out, sorry. The changes in maintenance are to adopt more modern working practices and make better use of technology, which results in fewer staff needed. Like has happened in almost every realm of industrial production. There’s an easy way of doing it, and a hard way. personally I don’t understand why the union won’t accept the easy way, but perhaps they will come round to it, loke they have before.

It is absolutely not about compromising the standard of maintenance, or safety, which I think was your implication.

I am not wholly convinced. I remember the 2b/c reorganisation. The reality is that a whole lot of infrastructure maintenance tasks don't lend themself to "efficient production" methods. NR has experimented with "lean" for years but the problem is that "lean" doesn't really work when you don't have control of your system boundaries, and NR will never have control of their system boundaries as they are broken by stuff like weather events, public behaviour etc- which cannot be controlled by NR. Also difficult to have a robust system which is also "lean" as the 2 things tend to work against each other (contingency resource is inefficient, and it's difficult to achieve a sufficiently reliable asset not to need contingency resource when the asset is a heritage as NR's infrastructure, even where the track and signalling is new most of the earthworks, structures and drainage are not, nor are all structures controlled by NR- e.g. road bridges over the railway).

What NR senior management is not mentioning is that there is an inherent inefficiency in the way maintenance is done due to the fact that safe access in many locations is difficult/impossible with trains running. An investment in safe cess paths and signal-operated warning systems over the past 10-15 years would have made it possible to make maintenance much more efficient, as it would have enabled immediate safe access at all hours for a large proportion of the asset- but a lack of "not invented here" and short-term outlook at senior level prevented that (and I remember; a decade ago I worked with an IMDU to try push for some of these things in an area being resignaled but the senior and strategic bods blocked them and said no. Would have been a game-changer for the IMDU and over 10 years was highly affordable and also highly doable technically- but we just couldn't make it happen).

It's never efficient to be fixing a fault on a set of points if you need to wait 45 minutes to get a 10-minute line blockage to do the initial inspection to find out what is wrong. Then wait another 45 minutes or more to get the longer 30 minutes of access you need to fix the asset. You could be on site for 3 or 4 hours to do a job which takes less than an hour overall due to waiting for line blockages (not the Signallers' fault, they can only work within the permitted rules for their location and/or what Control allows). The team sent to that fault may be a "faulting and maintenance" team which is pulled off preventative maintenance to go to that fault so half a days preventative maintenance is lost too. [An alternative is to wait until the end of service with delays building, building and a LOT of unhappy passengers/FOCs- probably what will happen if NR get their way about cutting maintenance and response staff.]

A lot of railway maintenance is done at night- between 00:30 and 04:30 in some places, although a late-running passenger train with one/no persons on could delay that by half an hour or more. The roads (m-ways) close between 20:00 and 06:00 but the railways only get 00:30 to 04:30.............. 10 hrs vs 4 hours. Plus, the m-way closures go on at 20:00 ON THE DOT no matter what, none of this waiting for a late train to go through!

The beancounters tend to look at the shiny technological toys and forget about real life. The shineys can do a certain amount, but may miss other things.... so where a Patroller was not just checking the track but also the fence-line, when you send the inspection train out instead of a Patroller to check the track, you then still need to send someone to check the fence-line. Maybe not as often, but still not much of a saving in the big scheme of things especially if a couple of curious cows find the fence gap before the less-frequent inspection does [cow within boundary fence = caution trains].

As for multiskilling: well there's been joint points teams for years. But again the reality is that it's not so simple to have one team that does everything due to the diversity of work on the infrastructure; e.g. it's unlikely that the team fault-finding a track-circuit failure will have much in common skills (and inherent capability) with the team dealing with a wet-bed.

The easy way to cut costs in NR is to point to "The Technology" and then slash maintenance. It's been going on for years. It tends to not end well.

The idea that NR maintenance is full of throw-backs who are dead against technology is also untrue. The front-line maintenance teams have been accepting new technology and work methods for years- albeit with skepticism at times because they remember the last time the same idea was tried in the same way and failed when it came up against real life.

A look at the infrastructure tells you Maintenance is stretched. Off-track has been the least well looked after section for over a decade now, as it's not as "important" as other more "safety critical" things; plus they are prioritised to level crossing sighting. So we get a railway where signal aspects are becoming obscured by trees and vegetation brushing against the side of trains. We also get a railway where drains may not be cleared before the winter storms- increasing the likelihood of floods or landslips.

So, I can see why the maintenance and signalling parts of NR are taking the view they do; they are the people on the sharp end at all times of day and night, seeing the actual reality rather than the slide-deck viewed on a sunny day in a comfortable office with coffee and biscuits on the table.

Whilst the senior people I am sure do not intend to compromise safety, I'm not convinced they have the depth of understanding of the real world and the fundamentals of what keeps the railway safe to be making the decisions they are. I therefore have a great deal of sympathy for the RMT-NR action, and pray that people on the front line are listened to; otherwise we'll be back on the road to Hatfield.

The thing with the railway is the various unions, and I'm sure some will attend duty as normal next week as they are in a different union (ie not RMT). I hope you are aware of this and don't hold it against those colleagues.

Indeed, and TSSA have issued guidance to members about what they should and should not do to avoid putting themself in a position where they might get into trouble with their employer. (I am sure ASLEF will have done the same).

HMG could easily let the TOCs and TUs talk. HMT would, of course, state that they will not provide one additional penny piece.

And you've hit the mail on the head as to why this is going to be a difficult one; HMT now regards the railway as being part of the public sector hence subject to the "usual" public sector (non LA) pay controls. They care not a jot about real life or fairness, just about maintaining their policy and boundaries on pay. Plus HMT may believe that being hard with the rail sector even in the face of strikes (which the public has not a great deal of sympathy for) will also discourage other more "cuddly" parts of the public sector such as nurses getting a bigger pay-rise (which the public would support) which would be much more expensive. It's when the public get annoyed and Ministers worry about their seats that HMT officials are reigned in.

Only time will tell how this plays out.

TPO
 
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Wolfie

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Neither I nor the articles (which many people obviously haven't read) had anything against breaks, just inflated allowances for fictitious activity.

If it doesn't take 17mins to walk there, you shouldn't be paid 17mins to do so.

Not sure why that is proving difficult to get across?

I will argue that anyone contracted to just 35hr a week does not need the actual break to be paid.
Has it occurred to you that many stations have multiple platforms with consequentially different walktimes? Having one set time is significantly less bureaucratic than different times for every platform. Not to mention that people walk at different speeds.
 
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ComUtoR

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Neither I nor the articles (which many people obviously haven't read) had anything against breaks, just inflated allowances for fictitious activity.

But never mentions what is fictitious.
If it doesn't take 17mins to walk there, you shouldn't be paid 17mins to do so.

Are you aware, or does the article mention (Ive read it so not it doesn't) how the time is calculated ?
 

windingroad

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The map I have seen published in the media over the last few days, depicting the routes still operating on strike days certainly tells a story.
With my taxpayers hat on, I’m beginning to think these are the routes that should remain open for passenger traffic, with the remainder closing permanently and replaced by alternative transport.
Sorry, what? My line is closed and is an important route between three cities, and which is very well used. If you close it, the only "alternative transport" you can replace it with will be...another railway. But do go on.
 

43066

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Nothing funnier than the ramblings of a bitter person with limited knowledge of what they are rambling about.

Yeah that’s about the size of it. “I read it in the mail so it must be true”. Still not told us what he does for a living …
 

HST274

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The map I have seen published in the media over the last few days, depicting the routes still operating on strike days certainly tells a story.
With my taxpayers hat on, I’m beginning to think these are the routes that should remain open for passenger traffic, with the remainder closing permanently and replaced by alternative transport.
With working from home, teleconferencing and electric road vehicles we certainly won’t need a passenger network even remotely the size it currently is going forward.
I think the unions should think very carefully if they would like to see on-going employment for their members. Remember, the NUM today now has fewer than 100 members!
Are you joking?
 

jayah

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Has it occurred to you that many stations have multiple platforms with consequentially different walktimes? Having one set time is significantly less bureaucratic than different times for every platform.
That argument is thoroughly debunked in the article. Not sure if you read it.
 

northwichcat

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Oh come on, this is nonsense. I'm sure most conservatives oppose it, but I imagine people from the centre leftwards have a more nuanced view in many cases (though not all). The strike has completely obliterated a long standing trip I had planned, and while that's annoying, I support the rights of workers.

I disagree. Most people support good working rights for workers but this is a political dispute between the RMT and the government. As the RMT can't a strike against the government they have decided to cause as much harm to the general public as they possibly can, in the hope the government will cave in. If they wanted the support of the general public they could actually talk to passengers to come up with a way of taking in industrial action without hitting millions of people in the cross fire.
 

eldomtom2

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The map I have seen published in the media over the last few days, depicting the routes still operating on strike days certainly tells a story.
With my taxpayers hat on, I’m beginning to think these are the routes that should remain open for passenger traffic, with the remainder closing permanently and replaced by alternative transport.
With working from home, teleconferencing and electric road vehicles we certainly won’t need a passenger network even remotely the size it currently is going forward.
I think the unions should think very carefully if they would like to see on-going employment for their members. Remember, the NUM today now has fewer than 100 members!
From what I have heard what lines are running is not an indication of what lines are prioritised.
 

windingroad

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If they wanted the support of the general public they could actually talk to passengers to come up with a way of taking in industrial action without hitting millions of people in the cross fire.
This sounds very nice, but what does it actually mean in practice? The entire premise of industrial action is that it causes disruption.
 

HST274

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The NUM were more interested in dragging down Thatcher than doing anything for their members.

Scargill didn't do badly out of it though?
I was asking whether they were joking about wanting to close down all the railways that's would be shut next week on strike days.
 

northwichcat

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When do you think a break should start ?

When the train is booked to arrive When it actually arrives
When the driver takes the key off
When the train ianshut down fully
When the Driver arrives at the crew room
When the Driver is off the platform

How long should the break be ?

30 mins paid
1hr unpaid
20 minutes cab environment

Am I allowed to work through that break ? Is it fixed or flexible ?

As already stated. That article is VERY misleading.

Legally you are allowed at least a 20 minute (unpaid) break for every 6 hours of working. During that time you can't do any work but you don't have to be somewhere where you can do anything exciting. Bus drivers often sit in their vehicles on a bus station bench for their breaks. While, many people work at industrial sites in the middle of nowhere, so can't exactly go anywhere interesting at lunchtime! Virtually all employees get more than a 20 minute meal break, the legal minimum. But being paid while you're eating or resting is rare.

Breaks from driving are also necessary and need to be more substantial. However, a break from driving doesn't have to be a break from working altogether. Ticket sellers are also entitled to screen breaks but again a screen break doesn't have to mean a break from working, just a break from working at the screen.
 

windingroad

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That argument is thoroughly debunked in the article. Not sure if you read it.
Yes, the article with this headline:

The mad militant gravy train: Services cancelled because staff won't work when it's sunny, breaks that restart if a boss says 'hello'. As they boast of bringing the network to a halt, GUY ADAMS reveals how union rules are stuck in the steam age​

Agenda? What agenda? All seems totally objective to me! Imagine taking an article like that seriously, no matter your perspective.
 

Wolfie

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That argument is thoroughly debunked in the article. Not sure if you read it.
Thoroughly debunked and the Daily Heil are not two things often seen in the same sentence. Perhaps if their proprietor wasn't a nob-dom who pays no UK taxes l might consider giving their rants more credence.
 

jayah

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Yeah that’s about the size of it. “I read it in the mail so it must be true”. Still not told us what he does for a living …
What I read in the Mail comes from your own railway management, who are rather more illuminating about what goes on behind closed doors than 'closed minds' like yourself.

Your first message was fire and fury about the Mail so I shall be leaving it there.

If you want to argue contrary to anything that was in the article you didn't read, the forum is yours.

Yes, the article with this headline:

The mad militant gravy train: Services cancelled because staff won't work when it's sunny, breaks that restart if a boss says 'hello'. As they boast of bringing the network to a halt, GUY ADAMS reveals how union rules are stuck in the steam age​

Agenda? What agenda? All seems totally objective to me!
Reading the first few words is a start, further than many who went off on potty mouth rants about the The Sun and whatever.

I was asking whether they were joking about wanting to close down all the railways that's would be shut next week on strike days.
The government spent £16bn paying for ticket offices nobody used before, during or after COVID, so contrary to what you read here, the evidence suggests not.
 

86206

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Simple question if anyone can answer. Im using the 23rd strike day for an example: If a freight is due to leave on the 22nd later in the day, and is subsequently delayed on its run would the service end up getting pulled at first possible location? Just curiosity thinking of caped freights turning up in odd locations/sidings as not to encroach into a strike day
 

northwichcat

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This sounds very nice, but what does it actually mean in practice? The entire premise of industrial action is that it causes disruption.

The disruption is supposed to primarily against the employer. If a strike against TransPennine causes the sale of Northern only tickets to increased then the union have achieved their aim. Wanting all operators to strike at the same time will make operators financially better off. They don't pay staff for striking and they'll be more passengers per service on the non-strike days.
 

Wolfie

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Thanks for confirming you didn't read it then.
It's ironic you posting that when your post is you confirming that you didn't actually read the post (though it wasn't the clearest) that you replied to.
 

jayah

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The Daily Mail is such a poor excuse for a newspaper that Wikipedia bans it from being used as source because of "poor fact checking, sensationalism, and flat-out fabrication". Strange that.
Wikipedia is described as a consensus, but of whom? I wouldn't use Wikipedia as a source for anything but you are concerned with ad hominem and not facts.

DM regularly breaks political scoops and in this case it is obvious the sources are railway management insiders.
 

Efini92

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Wikipedia is described as a consensus, but of whom? I wouldn't use Wikipedia as a source for anything but you are concerned with ad hominem and not facts.

DM regularly breaks political scoops and in this case it is obvious the sources are railway management insiders.
How is it obvious? Are you a railway insider?
 

jayah

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The disruption is supposed to primarily against the employer.
Ironic, given the employers have pretty much zero revenue exposure?

If they mean the government, they would be better off exposing cake eating during lockdowns.
 

Wolfie

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Wikipedia is described as a consensus, but of whom? I wouldn't use Wikipedia as a source for anything but you are concerned with ad hominem and not facts.

DM regularly breaks political scoops and in this case it is obvious the sources are railway management insiders.
Re your last para it's so unbiased too... Just like Pravda was about the Soviet Union!
 
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