Rail strikes discussion

[TPO]

Simple question if anyone can answer. Im using the 23rd strike day for an example: If a freight is due to leave on the 22nd later in the day, and is subsequently delayed on its run would the service end up getting pulled at first possible location? Just curiosity thinking of caped freights turning up in odd locations/sidings as not to encroach into a strike day

The FOC would reschedule it in the same way they respond to any other event causing a train to be delayed or diverted. Typically if a freight train is going to be over 2 hours leaving (perhaps because a loading terminal has a problem) the FOC would put in a VSTP request for a new path. Which the NR VSTP desk will only grant if it's possible. So a delay before departure in the scenario you ask about would likely result in not departing as NR wouldn't give a VSTP path. There's a lot going on behind the scenes......

TPO

 

[GRALISTAIR]

To be fair good breaks are an essential to keeping an attentive and productive workforce. Too many office workers scoff a sandwich at their desk and are then dozing off by 3pm. A full lunch hour for time to get food and go for a walk round the block improve productivity no end. Personally, if very busy, I prefer to work late than give up my lunch break.

I totally agree. Reasonable holidays too. You would be appalled at the situation in the USA.

 

[windingroad]

Wikipedia is described as a consensus, but of whom?

A consensus reached by a range of Wikipedia editors who come from all sorts of political perspectives. If this was a left-wing conspiracy against the Daily Mail (as I am certain you are implying), the Telegraph would be banned too. It isn't!

I wouldn't use Wikipedia as a source for anything but you are concerned with ad hominem and not facts.

Wikipedia isn't supposed to be used as a source itself. It collects information from trusted sources, something the Daily Mail is emphatically not. Your entire argument is based on an unreliable source, which is why everyone is criticising it. That is not an ad hominem.

 

[SJN]

That argument is thoroughly debunked in the article. Not sure if you read it.

Are you aware from the article that not all stations have a 17 min walking time? Some have 5 mins, some 10, some 8. The walking time is usually to the mess room as that is where our facilities like toilets, hot and cold water dispensers and fridges/microwaves are kept. Of course we don’t have to take our break in the mess room but some breaks are very early or very late so there may not be much choice available. Also not all mess rooms are on the station premises themselves and depending on how busy the station is, it can take a while to exit.

 

[Wolfie]

Plenty of nonsense on Wikipedia too.


If you read it you might understand why.

Your sheer arrogance in assuming that anyone who doesn't agree with your source must not have read it is frightening. I did read it. I don't work in the railway industry. I thought that it was 90+% crap.

 

[jayah]

How is it obvious? Are you a railway insider?

Because I can read and the level of detail is well beyond the usual standard of uninformed journalism.

You may wish to rant about DM etc.. but the whole piece has been spoon fed to them by railway management and article even says so.

Are you aware from the article that not all stations have a 17 min walking time? Some have 5 mins, some 10, some 8. The walking time is usually to the mess room as that is where our facilities like toilets, hot and cold water dispensers and fridges/microwaves are kept. Of course we don’t have to take our break in the mess room but some breaks are very early or very late so there may not be much choice available. Also not all mess rooms are on the station premises themselves and depending on how busy the station is, it can take a while to exit.

I am thank you, but those who haven't read the article, remain in ignorance.

 

[43066]

What I read in the Mail comes from your own railway management, who are rather more illuminating about what goes on behind closed doors than 'closed minds' like yourself.

Your first message was fire and fury about the Mail so I shall be leaving it there.

If you want to argue contrary to anything that was in the article you didn't read, the forum is yours.


Reading the first few words is a start, further than many who went off on potty mouth rants about the The Sun and whatever.

Just that laughable headline - I can assure you it’s complete and utter nonsense.

It isn’t from “railway management” it’s a few paragraphs of inaccurate bile churned out by some hack, artfully written to trigger people such as yourself. That newspaper is everything wrong with modern Britain distilled into one (extremely bitter) place. It appeals mostly to curtain twitching bigots who briefly feel better about their own unsatisfactory lives when others are vilified. Everything that’s bad in the world is down to those awful railway unions, and in other news immigrants are coming for your job. As you clearly can’t see that there’s little to discuss. As I said before, closed minds cannot be changed.

For once l agree with you.

You have your moments but you’re alright .

I totally agree. Reasonable holidays too. You would be appalled at the situation in the USA.

Isn’t it something like two weeks unpaid?

In a former life I worked with an American lawyer who prided herself on not having taken a single day off work. For three years. Utter madness.

 

[Need2]

Says someone who doesn't understand the artificially inflated walking allowances they have spent their career manufacturing, actually make their members poorer.

As per the careers devoted to campaigning to have a monopoly buyer of their labour...

Unions vs economics vs reality.

As I said earlier, bitter.

 

[SJN]

Because I can read and the level of detail is well beyond the usual standard of uninformed journalism.

You may wish to rant about DM etc.. but the whole piece has been spoon fed to them by railway management and article even says so.


I am thank you, but those who haven't read the article, remain in ignorance.

Well if you are aware, why are you having a rant about us getting walking time to where we have our break?

 

[northwichcat]

Ironic, given the employers have pretty much zero revenue exposure?

Legally a strike can only be against your current employer. Didn't Abellio successfully get a court order preventing a RMT strike at Northern as the RMT wanted to strike over what may happen under future franchises, not what Abellio planned to do the current franchise?

If they mean the government, they would be better off exposing cake eating during lockdowns.

Boris isn't going to resign if the most hard left trade union in existence start claiming he broke lockdown laws. He wasn't fazed by independent journalists uncovering evidence.

 

[windingroad]

You may wish to rant about DM etc.. but the whole piece has been spoon fed to them by railway management and article even says so.

Even if that's the case, you don't have to be a supporter of the strikes to see that "railway management" has a vested interest in briefing to the media in such a way that the strike is seen in negative terms. Engage some critical thinking.

 

[High Dyke]

The map I have seen published in the media over the last few days, depicting the routes still operating on strike days certainly tells a story.
With my taxpayers hat on, I’m beginning to think these are the routes that should remain open for passenger traffic, with the remainder closing permanently and replaced by alternative transport.
With working from home, teleconferencing and electric road vehicles we certainly won’t need a passenger network even remotely the size it currently is going forward.
I think the unions should think very carefully if they would like to see on-going employment for their members. Remember, the NUM today now has fewer than 100 members!

That map does say "indicative" at the top. However, if Whitehall took that map as a future plan then the majority of Lincolnshire would be decimated even worse than it was in the 1970's. It would only retain one station on a busy main line route and a handful of stations in the northern part of the county. I'm sure other areas would also suffer. Even the 'bean-counters' can't be that merciless? If nothing else it would make a mockery of the "levelling-up" promises made by the current Government. Mind you that probably doesn't count for much when the Prime Minister fails to attend a conference of MP's and party activists/supporters in Doncaster recently.

Boris Johnson accused of 'contempt for the North' after snubbing Doncaster appearance

Boris Johnson has been accused of showing “contempt for the North” after cancelling a planned levelling up talk to Conservative MPs and supporters in Yorkshire to visit Ukraine.

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk

The Prime Minister had been due to be the star speaker at the first conference of the Northern Research Group of Tory MPs at Doncaster Racecourse today.
Around 30 MPs were in attendance, along with hundreds of Conservative supporters and local business executives in what had been billed as a chance for Mr Johnson to win back support after last week’s confidence vote.

 

[newtownmgr]

Wikipedia is described as a consensus, but of whom? I wouldn't use Wikipedia as a source for anything but you are concerned with ad hominem and not facts.

DM regularly breaks political scoops and in this case it is obvious the sources are railway management insiders.

You won’t use Wikipedia as a reliable source, yet you are prepared to believe a very one sided story in a very biased rag! That story is utter rubbish. Would love to know which ‘manager’ they spoke to if indeed they did!!

Not going to enter into a pointless debate with you as you have obviously made your mind up & are going to be right whatever is said in response.

 

[Efini92]

Because I can read and the level of detail is well beyond the usual standard of uninformed journalism.

I congratulate you on being able to read. It’s a skill everyone should have.

It still doesn’t change the fact you’re quoting someone who has made up lots of stuff.
Can you give me one example of any depot that has 17 minutes walking time?
Or these members of staff that are able to walk slowly and claim a longer break? Which grade in which company has that in their t&c’s?

 

[windingroad]

That map does say "indicative" at the top. However, if Whitehall took that map as a future plan then the majority of Lincolnshire would be decimated even worse than it was in the 1970's.

Not to mention Scotland, which would see almost the entire railway "replaced". It's an absurd suggestion.

 

[Need2]

Breaks from driving are also necessary and need to be more substantial. However, a break from driving doesn't have to be a break from working altogether.

What shall a driver do then in this instance?

 

[ComUtoR]

Can you give me one example of any depot that has 17 minutes walking time?

I can give you one with exactly 17mins and I can give you one with 25mins....

 

[HST274]

Surely the main (if not whole) issue is pay and/or striking? So why is there so much argument about breaks etc.? That is irrelevant to a pay rise Surely or whether someone should be striking or pensions etc. Etc.?

Your sheer arrogance in assuming that anyone who doesn't agree with your source must not have read it is frightening. I did read it. I don't work in the railway industry. I thought that it was 90+% crap.

Completely same position. Read it all, not a railway worker, think its crap

 

[Efini92]

I can give you one with exactly 17mins and I can give you one with 25mins....

I know you can because you’re traincrew.

I’m asking our resident daily mail spokesperson.

 

[ComUtoR]

So why is there so much argument about breaks etc.? That is irrelevant to a pay rise

Breaks, walking times etc. Form part of the overall terms and conditions. Walking times could be updated as part of a productivity package. Increased breaks, removal of PC/TC breaks, infrastructure changes to mess room locations , all form part of what can go into a pay deal. 2% but a 1hr in the room break would be tempting.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Isn’t it something like two weeks unpaid?

In a former life I worked with an American lawyer who prided herself on not having taken a single day off work. For three years. Utter madness.

not to stray too far OT but not quite that bad. 2 weeks paid is about it plus some public/bank holidays. I refuse and take nearly 4 weeks and some Friday afternoon. If they want to fire me - great. I admit I am in a fortunate situation.

Back OT at least RMT members should get reasonable holidays.

 

[HST274]

Breaks, walking times etc. Form part of the overall terms and conditions. Walking times could be updated as part of a productivity package. Increased breaks, removal of PC/TC breaks, infrastructure changes to mess room locations , all form part of what can go into a pay deal. 2% but a 1hr in the room break would be tempting.

Ah that makes sense.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Even if that's the case, you don't have to be a supporter of the strikes to see that "railway management" has a vested interest in briefing to the media in such a way that the strike is seen in negative terms. Engage some critical thinking.

Absolutely

 

[northwichcat]

Surely the main (if not whole) issue is pay and/or striking? So why is there so much argument about breaks etc.? That is irrelevant to a pay rise

Not necessarily. If you're paid by the hour then whether or not you get paid for an hour's lunch break is very relevant. If an employer does a 9 hour shift including a one hour unpaid break and the employer offers payment for the break then they're offering an 11% pay rise!

you don't have to be a supporter of the strikes to see that "railway management" has a vested interest in briefing to the media in such a way that the strike is seen in negative terms.

And you don't need to read any article to know that 3 days of striking in a single week will have a devastating effect on the people who rely on the trains.

 

[windingroad]

And you don't need to read any article to know that 3 days of striking in a single week will have a devastating effect on the people who rely on the trains.

This is absolutely irrelevant to my message. We're discussing the validity of the article.

 

[newtownmgr]

Ironically it’s the Tory privatisation that’s driven wages. With the fragmentation of the railway. Many TOC’s struggle to keep drivers if the work is seen as boring or intensive with drivers transferring to the longer distance companies such as XC/LNER etc. this means the regional TOC’s have to offer an attractive wage to get drivers. Maybe if the Tories hadn’t have privatised the railway they wouldn’t be in this situation. They’ve created the problem.

With regards to an earlier comment about a drivers break not having to be a break from work. That’s ridiculous!
A driver books on. 10/15 mins allowance before getting on the train, he then drives for 4h45 before having a a 45 min break before driving an 4 hours. Booking off on arrival at his home station with no walking time allowed at the end of the shift. That’s a 9h45 shift, what does the poster suggest we do if it’s not a break from work! Clean the train,sell tickets,work in the Station buffet!! Would you want to be on a train with a driver that’s not had a break in a nearly 10 hour shift. You wouldn’t get on a coach if the driver hadn’t had a break would you!!

 

[43066]

not to stray too far OT but not quite that bad. 2 weeks paid is about it plus some public/bank holidays. I refuse and take nearly 4 weeks and some Friday afternoon. If they want to fire me - great. I admit I am in a fortunate situation.

Back OT at least RMT members should get reasonable holidays.

I don’t blame you. It’s madness, having worked with quite a few Americans over the years. The corporate culture there is very different, with absolutely no regard for work life balance. In my experience time management was also something they didn’t really do. I can remember doing conference calls with the NY office of the firm I worked for, they’d spend 30 mins just introducing themselves! The U.K. is going the same way.

On topic, my TM colleagues get reasonable holidays, but are expected to do 12 hour shifts with breaks to be taken on the train. I’ll also regularly walk past the same gateline person when I’m starting and leaving work. There are far worse industries, but the railway isn’t the land of milk and honey some would have you believe.

 

[northwichcat]

What shall a driver do then in this instance?

Check the calling pattern and time of their next service? Walk to the platform where the next service will depart from? Unlock doors? Set the information display with the right destination? None of those involve actually driving the train.

This is absolutely irrelevant to my message. We're discussing the validity of the article.

You were discussing how management briefs the media. That's not the same as what's published on a webpage or in an article. Journalists and website editors quote the bits that fit with their spin of the topic, especially so in the case of the Daily Mail, Daily Express and the Socialist Worker which are all bias.

 

[LOL The Irony]

The Daily Mail is such a poor excuse for a newspaper that Wikipedia bans it from being used as source because of "poor fact checking, sensationalism, and flat-out fabrication". Strange that.

The daily mail is a poor source, but it should also be noted wikipedia isn't free from bias and poor form itself.

 

[DanNCL]

Is it true that the RMT are demanding an 11% rise?