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Should Elizabeth line take over the Thames Valley branches and also Romford - Upminster branch?

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JonathanH

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Don't you think the inability to access West Ealing / Acton Main Line with a single change from intercity services an issue?
I dont think it is the primary consideration in stopping patterns on the relief line, no, not to the detriment of other users.

Ultimately, stopping patterns are a matter of trying to do the best for the majority of passengers, and it isntbpossible to make all journeys possible.
 
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cactustwirly

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Don't you think the inability to access West Ealing / Acton Main Line with a single change from intercity services an issue?

No it's a handful of passengers, and a single change is available via Paddington.
Not worth sacrificing services at far more busier stations.
 

JonathanH

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I am thinking about converting the off-peak GWR relief line service onto the fast line east of Slough if there are additional fast line capacity, such that only all station stoppers will run east of Hayes & Harlington to maximise relief line capacity.
There appears to be an application with the ORR for just this to be introduced from May 2023.

Oxford / Cotswolds get a stop at Didcot instead of Slough and GWR run Paddington to Didcot stopping Slough / Maidenhead.

As I noted above, Slough stops in Oxford trains and the 'fast weave' not possible.
 

JonathanH

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Is the bigger question not why TfL should have priority, or exclusive, use of any part of the Reliefs, overriding other operators who were there before them to their detriment ?
It seems to be happening though, based on this download - note link is to pdf download from Network Rail website
2: to incorporate changes to Schedule 5 to facilitate timetable changes proposed for introduction on SCD 2023:
a: essential ESG London area changes to introduce the fast Slough and Maidenhead service (“the Weave”) vice GWR’s Relief Line services to free space for Crossrail and to improve the offer for key nodes. This uses the overlay fast London - Bristol path which is therefore withdrawn;
b: aligned with (a) the swapping of the Slough call in fast Oxford / North Cotswolds services with a Didcot Parkway call; and This is all led by the need to facilitate Crossrail and the agreement to relinquish Relief Line services
(apart from times of the day and night that Crossrail does not operate) and instead use the Paddington - Bristol overlay fast path to run all day and all week the Main Line Paddington then Relief Line fast London - Slough, Maidenhead and Twyford service that currently runs only in the peaks.
 
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cactustwirly

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I would be against this idea, Bristol services are extremely busy at the moment, the fast Bristol path is needed!

Slough also loses their direct service to Oxford, which I'm aware is a very useful service that quite a few people use.

I think the status quo is better
 

Non Multi

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Is the bigger question not why TfL should have priority, or exclusive, use of any part of the Reliefs, overriding other operators who were there before them to their detriment ?
If TfL want to run long trains that are lightly loaded beyond West London at high frequency off peak, that's their choice. It's not a rational one, but there we go. That's pretty much what happens on the Amersham Met branch.

It's a shame the freights aren't going too, would be quite entertaining to see London's construction works run out of aggregates.

TfL get what they want and everyone else can get stuffed (again!).
 

Watershed

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Don't you think the inability to access West Ealing / Acton Main Line with a single change from intercity services an issue?
Has Paddington station been closed since the last time I visited it? :lol:
 

miklcct

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Has Paddington station been closed since the last time I visited it? :lol:
How is Paddington relevant for those coming from the West on an intercity service? If one wanting Acton Main Line ends up at Paddington he would already have gone too far!
 

cactustwirly

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How is Paddington relevant for those coming from the West on an intercity service? If one wanting Acton Main Line ends up at Paddington he would already have gone too far!

Because they can change at Paddington?
 

JonathanH

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How is Paddington relevant for those coming from the West on an intercity service? If one wanting Acton Main Line ends up at Paddington he would already have gone too far!
Getting to Acton Main Line via Paddington is always going to be quicker than sitting on a stopping train all the way from Reading, particularly if it has to stop at Hanwell and West Ealing as well.
 

cactustwirly

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If TfL want to run long trains that are lightly loaded beyond West London at high frequency off peak, that's their choice. It's not a rational one, but there we go. That's pretty much what happens on the Amersham Met branch.

It's a shame the freights aren't going too, would be quite entertaining to see London's construction works run out of aggregates.

TfL get what they want and everyone else can get stuffed (again!).

I fully expect Twyford and Maidenhead passengers to gravitate towards the faster GWR, this is exactly what happens during the peak times.

Wouldn't this also mean that TfL would get a reduced share of the ORCATs revenue. Isn't it weighted towards speed and passenger surveys of share?
 

Bald Rick

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How is Paddington relevant for those coming from the West on an intercity service? If one wanting Acton Main Line ends up at Paddington he would already have gone too far!

the same way Euston is relevant for those coming from the North West but travelling to South Hampstead, or from the North East and travelling to Finsbury Park.

or for that matter, those coming from Hong Kong and travelling to Central London.
 

Jamiescott1

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Great news. The stopping off peak services to maidenhead are painfully slow and actually alot of people alight at maidenhead, fast services are definitely needed.
 

JonathanH

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Isn't changing at Harrow & Wealdstone (or Watford Junction if the train doesn't call there) the best most of the times?
No, because many of the long distance trains have their last stop a long way away from London - for example at Warrington Bank Quay in the case of Glasgow, Stafford in the case of Liverpool. The fastest route even to Harrow & Wealdstone is likely to be via Euston.

The Great Western line is a bit different in that a greater percentage of trains call at Reading but it is then 25 minutes into Paddington staying on the same train or an hour plus using a hypothetical stopping service calling at all stations.
 

miklcct

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No, because many of the long distance trains have their last stop a long way away from London - for example at Warrington Bank Quay in the case of Glasgow, Stafford in the case of Liverpool. The fastest route even to Harrow & Wealdstone is likely to be via Euston.

The Great Western line is a bit different in that a greater percentage of trains call at Reading but it is then 25 minutes into Paddington staying on the same train or an hour plus using a hypothetical stopping service calling at all stations.
I have just searched for some journeys between Kilburn High Road and Milton Keynes and I am surprised that the fastest journeys all involve doubling-back through Euston.

Is the timetable written badly here? I am expecting that most fastest journeys should involve changing at Harrow & Wealdstone or Watford Junction.
 

JonathanH

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Is the timetable written badly here? I am expecting that most fastest journeys should involve changing at Harrow & Wealdstone or Watford Junction.
I doubt it is a poorly written timetable, more just that trains that stop everywhere take longer. A Pendolino takes about 30 minutes to get from Milton Keynes to Euston. It takes about 50 minutes to travel from Watford to Euston on the DC lines.

Kilburn High Road is 24 minutes from Harrow & Wealdstone and 9 minutes from Euston. Unless there were to be specific fast services from Milton Keynes non stop to Harrow & Wealdstone it is a practical impossibility for most of the fastest connections to be at Harrow & Wealdstone rather than at Euston.

Translating that back to the Great Western route, every fast train could stop at Slough for a frequent Elizabeth Line service for the 'local' stops but it wouldn't give people quicker journeys. It would both slow down the long distance journeys and not make the shorter ones better either.
 
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Watershed

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I have just searched for some journeys between Kilburn High Road and Milton Keynes and I am surprised that the fastest journeys all involve double-backing through Euston.

Is the timetable written badly here? I am expecting that most fastest journeys should involve changing at Harrow & Wealdstone or Watford Junction.
I have no idea why you think the timetable is bad, just because most non-overtaken Milton Keynes-London services run non-stop? Even if they stopped at Watford Junction it would still be quicker to travel via London, and you would increase the journey time for the vast majority of passengers onboard, who are heading to central London.
 

Acton1991

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I would be against this idea, Bristol services are extremely busy at the moment, the fast Bristol path is needed!

Slough also loses their direct service to Oxford, which I'm aware is a very useful service that quite a few people use.

I think the status quo is better
So is the proposal a fast service to calling at Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford and Reading using the mains between Paddington and Slough? And this would then give up relief line running to Crossrail?

This would then also replaced the Slough call on the Oxfords as this would be swapped with a Didcot Parkway stop allowing them to retain a direct London service?
 

JonathanH

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So is the proposal a fast service to calling at Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford and Reading using the mains between Paddington and Slough? And this would then give up relief line running to Crossrail?

This would then also replaced the Slough call on the Oxfords as this would be swapped with a Didcot Parkway stop allowing them to retain a direct London service?
Yes, that is what the document linked above says. GWR would only serve stations between Slough and Paddington early morning and late night when Elizabeth Line isn't running. Slough's fast service to London would be provided by the train that calls at Maidenhead and Slough.
 

Acton1991

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Yes, that is what the document linked above says. GWR would only serve stations between Slough and Paddington early morning and late night when Elizabeth Line isn't running. Slough's fast service to London would be provided by the train that calls at Maidenhead and Slough.
Ah right. Seems to be a happy medium and provides Didcot with a direct train still, as well as faster options for those further out
 

MarkyT

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So is the proposal a fast service to calling at Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford and Reading using the mains between Paddington and Slough? And this would then give up relief line running to Crossrail?

This would then also replaced the Slough call on the Oxfords as this would be swapped with a Didcot Parkway stop allowing them to retain a direct London service?
A grade separated junction between main and reliefs east of Slough would be very useful for this pattern. Perhaps the future connection to Heathrow for Western rail access could be modified to incorporate such a facility, something like: http://www.townend.me/files/richingspark.pdf
 

JonathanH

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A grade separated junction between main and reliefs east of Slough would be very useful for this pattern. Perhaps the future connection to Heathrow for Western rail access could be modified to incorporate such a facility, something like: http://www.townend.me/files/richingspark.pdf
That bit of line where the down services from Paddington to the relief line and up services from the relief to Heathrow looks like an awkward conflict in that plan.

Is there any scope to burrow the down main to down relief crossover underneath the running lines (or move it further west). After all, that crossover can be nearer Slough even if everything else is east of Langley.
 

MarkyT

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That bit of line where the down services from Paddington to the relief line and up services from the relief to Heathrow looks like an awkward conflict in that plan.
4TPH Reading (Rlf) to Heathrow conflicting with (say) 4TPH Paddington (Mn) to Reading (Rlf) is not ideal I agree, but seems far more manageable than all the Relief-Main weaves taking place on the level.
Is there any scope to burrow the down main to down relief crossover underneath the running lines (or move it further west). After all, that crossover can be nearer Slough even if everything else is east of Langley.
That might be a possibility, at a greater cost probably, say with a second flyover deck structure at a different site. You could end up with a set of interlaced flyovers nearly as complex as those west of Hayes and Harlington! I was trying to illustrate an outline concept; detailed configuration of a firmer proposal would need to be developed by engineers and operators.
 

cle

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So 2tph London - Slough (fast then switch) - Maidenhead - Twyford - Reading and various stations to Didcot/Oxford when wired?
And 2tph London - Reading - Didcot - Oxford - Cotswolds 1tph ?

For Slough-London, it's fine but definitely a downgrade for getting to Reading and especially Oxford. It's good for Didcot, and will mean much better Oxford connections from the west.

Bristol Parkway-TM fasts going - does that mean the deferred wires project will be downgraded? The Bath route will be even more important now. I'd hope some peaks would still operate that faster route.
 

Falcon1200

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It's good for Didcot, and will mean much better Oxford connections from the west.

Will it not also mean slower journeys between the Cotswold Line/Oxford and Reading/Paddington, given the slow trundle between Didcot North Jc and Didcot station ?
Hopefully XC will at some point reinstate their half-hourly non-stops between Oxford and Reading......
 

cle

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It might do. I would think that 1tph could call, and one pass - as does happen sometimes/in peaks.

Will this lead to two additional Crossrail paths in those relief slots? If so, do we know what for? Would seem that stations beyond Hayes (towards Reading) would be the main ones missing out.
 
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