£2 Price Cap on fares in England - Now extended beyond October 2023

[johncrossley]

I can see a case for the London approach to be to charge a Tube fare if connecting to a bus, but £2 would be for bus only journeys. Trouble is that would require tapping out. £1.65 is expensive as an add on in a supposedly integrated network but very low for a bus only fare.

I believe TfGM plan to charge the maximum of the bus and tram fare for combined bus/tram journeys after bus franchising starts. Touching out is done in other countries so I wouldn't rule it out.

 

[Megafuss]

How would any reimbursement scheme work for this? A £2 fare for a journey of 1 mile is not going to need the same support as £2 for 20 miles. By distance? Based on the current fare (which would disproportionately benefit operators perceived to offer poor value for money)? Get it wrong and a lot of routes are going to disappear (though that'll probably be the result anyway because the scheme will almost certainly be underfunded).

The other pitfall I can see is that the introduction of these "cheap" single fares will be used as an excuse either to withdraw or raise the price of period tickets, through which many regular users already pay less than £2 per journey.

This is all going to hinge on how operators are reimbursed for revenue lost because customers have switched from a weekly ticket to a £2 a trip ticket. God knows how that would be worked out. Somebody will have to build a very fancy spreadsheet to work it all out

 

[Andyh82]

I could see that happening. Bus operators have focussed on period tickets for years (how often do you see the single fare advertised on the side of a bus, it’s generally always ‘travel all day for X, travel all week for Y’

Politicians don’t think that way, they always look at single fares and always add them up individually to make a headline (Andy Burnham has regularly mentioned someone in GM who travels on two buses and a tram to work, so adds up three different fares x 2 x 5 days a week)

Like how on the railways they always look at the walk up fare, ignoring advances

 

[miklcct]

I can see a case for the London approach to be to charge a Tube fare if connecting to a bus, but £2 would be for bus only journeys. Trouble is that would require tapping out. £1.65 is expensive as an add on in a supposedly integrated network but very low for a bus only fare.

The bus only fare may be cheap, but overall transport in London is very expensive. If you change from a bus to a tube that is *really* expensive. Minimum £4.15 for any such journey including Zone 1. That might be possibly the most expensive in the world for the distance, comparing to other world cities. Taking the bus the whole way instead just takes too long and you shouldn't have to do that anyway if you have a properly integrated transport system.

The effect is that, I can always reach the day cap if I make such journey for a return, making the day cap the effective price for a return journey. Therefore I suggest that an integrated fare should be introduced while raising the day caps such that most passengers won't be capped unless they are making many journeys.

I could see that happening. Bus operators have focussed on period tickets for years (how often do you see the single fare advertised on the side of a bus, it’s generally always ‘travel all day for X, travel all week for Y’

Politicians don’t think that way, they always look at single fares and always add them up individually to make a headline (Andy Burnham has regularly mentioned someone in GM who travels on two buses and a tram to work, so adds up three different fares x 2 x 5 days a week)

Like how on the railways they always look at the walk up fare, ignoring advances

Period tickets are useless for me as I don't travel often. It's the carnet fare (if available) which is relevant for me.

 

[Wolfie]

The effect is that, I can always reach the day cap if I make such journey for a return, making the day cap the effective price for a return journey. Therefore I suggest that an integrated fare should be introduced while raising the day caps such that most passengers won't be capped unless they are making many journeys.


Period tickets are useless for me as I don't travel often. It's the carnet fare (if available) which is relevant for me.

Daily caps are set with reference to the Travelcard cost too. What your proposal in the first para would likely to is to encourage more people to buy a day Travelcard which would doubtless be cheaper.

Any proposal to change the price of Day Travelcards has a direct impact on all period Travelcards so would and should be opposed.

 

[miklcct]

Daily caps are set with reference to the Travelcard cost too. What your proposal in the first para would likely to is to encourage more people to buy a day Travelcard which would doubtless be cheaper.

Any proposal to change the price of Day Travelcards has a direct impact on all period Travelcards so would and should be opposed.

The multiplier of the period Travelcard compared to day Travelcard is too high in my opinion (I think about 4x is appropriate). Therefore I think the price of the day Travelcard should be increased but not the period Travelcard.

 

[Deerfold]

First in West Yorkshire moved to a £2 single fare a few months ago, but adjusted their ticket range so that a weekly ticket is £20 (the previous Leeds/Bradford/Halifax/Huddersfield only tickets were withdrawn at the same time).

At around the same time I started working one day a week at home, so it’s no longer worthwhile fo r me to buy a period ticket as I only need a single each way, so in a normal week I only pay £16 unless I know I’m going somewhere at the weekend. Quite a few of our local services are provided by Transdev so I tend to buy the £5.50 Metro ticket at the weekends instead anyway.

If you travel both days (and/or Friday evenings) don't forget the £8.50 Weekender, which can be an absolute bargain - valid from 1800 on Friday, for the next 54 hours.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2022 ==

I'm wondering how this will affect ENCTS pass reimbursement. Many schemes depend heavily on the value of single fares.

 

[Dai Corner]

I'm wondering how this will affect ENCTS pass reimbursement. Many schemes depend heavily on the value of single fares

I'd imagine it would stay the same as it is now. When Newport had a Welsh Government funded free travel month we were still supposed to scan our concessionary passes. Drivers counted other passengers via the ticket machines (and collected fares for dogs!). The reimbursement agreement has not been disclosed.

 

[robbob700]

the multiplier of the period Travelcard compared to day Travelcard is too high in my opinion (I think about 4x is appropriate). Therefore I think the price of the day Travelcard should be increased but not the period Travelcard.

The multiplier is deliberately 5X so that part-time workers do not pay proportionally more when they do not work 5 days a week.

 

[miklcct]

The multiplier is deliberately 5X so that part-time workers do not pay proportionally more when they do not work 5 days a week.

As the society moves away from 5-day commute such multiplier has become outdated.

 

[robbob700]

As the society moves away from 5-day commute such multiplier has become outdated.

What actually happened was that the daily price was reduced to one fifth of the weekly price for precisely that reason.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As the society moves away from 5-day commute such multiplier has become outdated.

Quite the opposite.

 

[JaJaWa]

That’s a fare price: bus trips will cost no more than £2​

April 19 2020, 12.01am BST

Stagecoach charges £10 for the 60-mile ride from Oxford to Bedford
ALAMY
The scheme for a single journey, which Downing Street has been working on since April, is intended to address a long-standing anomaly whereby bus services in England are more expensive and less frequent than in London, where pay-as-you-go fares are a flat rate of £1.65 if made within an hour.

Across Europe, governments are slashing the price of public transport. In Ireland fares have been cut by 20 per cent, while in Germany, a ticket costing €9 (£7.62) gives unlimited travel for a month in June, July or August on local or regional public transport.

A source familiar with the scheme said: “The value of an eye-catching initiative like a £2 flat fare is that the government can really get behind it and say, ‘We are helping you over the winter’.”

Its main purpose is to reduce the price of trips in rural areas and to city centres from outer suburbs, for commuting, shopping, leisure and education, but there will also be bargains on longer journeys.

People in Leeds can enjoy the seaside in Whitby 77 miles away for only £2
ALAMY
The price of the 80-mile trip from Peterborough to Norwich with First Excel is normally £12 for a day ticket and takes three hours 15 minutes but will be cut to £2. The 77-mile trip from Leeds to the coastal town of Whitby normally costs £19 for a day ticket on the Coastliner and takes more than three hours, while Stagecoach charges £10 for the 60-mile ride from Oxford to Bedford, which takes two hours and 20 minutes.

The price cap will not apply to long-distance scheduled coach services, and nor will it apply to Scotland or Wales.

Even before the surge in energy prices, reducing the cost of everyday public transport outside London was seen as a vote-winner. In the government’s Bus Back Better strategy, published in March 2021, Boris Johnson declared: “Better buses will be one of our major acts of levelling-up.” He added: “We want simple, cheap flat fares.”

City-wide price caps of £2 are being devised by Labour mayors, including Tracy Brabin in West Yorkshire, Andy Burnham in Greater Manchester and Steve Rotheram in Liverpool City Region. They will begin in the autumn and remain for three years.

Bus travel has been in long-term decline since the 1950s, and half the population take the bus less than once a year. The most regular passengers are those with concessionary tickets, such as those who have reached state pension age, or 60 if they live in London.

Some bus operators welcome the £2 cap but are worried that it will be difficult to wean passengers off low prices when the scheme comes to an end in April.

Stephen Joseph, a transport consultant and a visiting professor at Hertfordshire University, welcomed the £2 cap but warned that cuts in the bus network could undermine it. “The risk is that we’ll have cheap fares, but not enough buses for people to ride.”

The Department for Transport did not comment directly on the plans but said in a statement: “We’ve already committed to investing £3 billion in bus services by 2025, to improve fares, services and infrastructure, and given nearly £2 billion since March 2020 to bus operators and local authorities to mitigate the impacts of the pandemic.”

@NicholasHellen

The Times & The Sunday Times

News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times

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[PeterC]

The Times & The Sunday Times

News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times

www.thetimes.co.uk

I suspect that the Treasury will kick back over a single subsidy for what are technically multiple journeys where long routes are split for registration.

IIRC this is the paper that told us that HS2 would be reservation only so I will wait and see if those £2 trips to Whitby materialise.

 

[neilmc]

Look forward to seeing a forum recommending how to split long bus journeys into £2 segments!

 

[PeterC]

Look forward to seeing a forum recommending how to split long bus journeys into £2 segments!

What is a journey? Why should I pay one price if the operator lets me stay on a vehicle that switches between two registered routes but pay twice as much if I have to continue in a different vehicle?

 

[py_megapixel]

Look forward to seeing a forum recommending how to split long bus journeys into £2 segments!

That's the opposite of what you'd want to do. Surely the aim would be to get as much distance as possible into a single £2 segment!

 

[NorthOxonian]

What is a journey? Why should I pay one price if the operator lets me stay on a vehicle that switches between two registered routes but pay twice as much if I have to continue in a different vehicle?

To make matters worse, there's at least one route I'm aware of that's registered as a through service but is operated by two vehicles (with a change required halfway through)! Would that require one single or two?

 

[Busaholic]

It is an ill-thought-through soundbite masquerading as a policy, with absolutely no detail as to how it's to be put into practice. Grant Shapps needs to focus on doing the job he's being paid fabulously for and stop crawling round with his tongue out in the vicinity of the PM's nether regions.

 

[GusB]

Please remember that were discussing a £2 cap on fares. Anything else is off-topic.

 

[Goldfish62]

Given what's been happening in government since this was first mooted I assume it's dead in the water.

 

[WatcherZero]

How would any reimbursement scheme work for this? A £2 fare for a journey of 1 mile is not going to need the same support as £2 for 20 miles. By distance? Based on the current fare (which would disproportionately benefit operators perceived to offer poor value for money)? Get it wrong and a lot of routes are going to disappear (though that'll probably be the result anyway because the scheme will almost certainly be underfunded).

The other pitfall I can see is that the introduction of these "cheap" single fares will be used as an excuse either to withdraw or raise the price of period tickets, through which many regular users already pay less than £2 per journey.

Two ways of doing it really, either:
A. Government pays all Operator costs and keeps all the revenue (including bus passes and smaller tickets) as a subsidy deduction.
B. Government pays a flat mileage fee for every £2 journey e.g. 55p a mile. Passenger has to declare end point when they board, total passenger journey distance is worked out and subsidy paid with ticket revenue deducted.

 

[johncrossley]

It would be impossible for the TfL to require you to rebook before the time limit because the Oyster reader doesn't allow the same card to be touched in twice on the same journey. So you would have to get off the bus before the hour (62 minutes including grace) is up, and then wait until 62 minutes have elapsed since the original boarding before boarding the next bus.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Two ways of doing it really, either:
A. Government pays all Operator costs and keeps all the revenue (including bus passes and smaller tickets) as a subsidy deduction.
B. Government pays a flat mileage fee for every £2 journey e.g. 55p a mile. Passenger has to declare end point when they board, total passenger journey distance is worked out and subsidy paid with ticket revenue deducted.

I would have thought the most likely way is paying an increased figure for BSOG (Bus Service Operators' Grant, basically fuel duty rebate) as was done during COVID, as it doesn't require any extra reporting than is done already.

 

[RT4038]

I would have thought the most likely way is paying an increased figure for BSOG (Bus Service Operators' Grant, basically fuel duty rebate) as was done during COVID, as it doesn't require any extra reporting than is done already.

That isn't what was done during Covid.

 

[Deerfold]

It would be impossible for the TfL to require you to rebook before the time limit because the Oyster reader doesn't allow the same card to be touched in twice on the same journey. So you would have to get off the bus before the hour (62 minutes including grace) is up, and then wait until 62 minutes have elapsed since the original boarding before boarding the next bus.

What is this in response to?

 

[neilmc]

That's the opposite of what you'd want to do. Surely the aim would be to get as much distance as possible into a single £2 segment!

Well, if the intention is to let people make huge journeys (e.g. Leeds to Whitby for £2) fair enough, but I expect that operators of long inter-urban and rural services will kick back if like the ENCTS scheme they don't think they're been given adequate compensation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That isn't what was done during Covid.

What was, then? I genuinely thought it was via the BSOG mechanism.

 

[johncrossley]

What is this in response to?

There was some debate earlier in the thread as to whether you were allowed to stay on the bus more than 62 minutes after you boarded your first bus.

 

[Goldfish62]

Cue HMG taking the opportunity to insist on fares in London increasing to £2 no doubt.

Given that over 50% of England bus journeys are in London how would the messaging come across on that?

"Great news! Fares reduced to £2, except for over half of you we're increasing them by over 20%."