Avanti West Coast cancellations

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Government aren’t ‘privatising’ the blame at all.

A transport minister (Baroness Vere) told the Lords before the Recess that Avanti services were "terrible".
She also said that a long-term National Rail Contract was not yet agreed with First/FS (the current ERMA expires in October).
That sounded like privatising the blame to me, and raising the spectre of OLR operation.
No hint there of DfT owning any of the current problems.

 

[duncanp]

How can a train be reinstated if a member of the train crew is unavailable

08:07 London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street due 10:19 will be reinstated.
It will call additionally at Crewe.
This is due to a member of train crew being unavailable.

And how can a train which is cancelled, make extra stops because a train is cancelled

07:35 London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly due 09:46 has been cancelled.
This is due to the train making extra stops because a train was cancelled.

And how can Avanti manage to find enough staff to operate a train between London and Preston, but there is no-one to take the train the short additional distance to Blackpool.

04/08/22 13:43 London Euston to Blackpool North due 17:16 will be terminated at Preston.
It will no longer call at Blackpool North.
This is due to a member of train crew being unavailable.

It seems to me as if Avanti are taking the public for fools, and regard operating train services as an inconvenience they would rather not have to put up with.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And with rumours that "double tripping" is imminent, depots like a Liverpool, Wolverhampton and Manchester will seem even less desirable.

There is so much demand for railway jobs I can't see this being an actual issue. This is caused by management incompetence, not a lack of applicants. Not that I am suggesting it, but you could take £10K off driver pay and still get several applicants per post.

What is wrong with double tripping? A bus driver will do the same route lots of times in a day. And, crikey, what would they think of working the Stourbridge town car?

 

[DarloRich]

It seems to me as if Avanti are taking the public for fools, and regard operating train services as an inconvenience they would rather not have to put up with.

It seems to me you have an axe to grid. Virgin aren't coming back.

The other issues you highlight look like:

• a poorly worded communication,
• a train off route ( running via Crewe rather than Stoke - perhaps route singing issues)
• the London > Preston crew don't sign Blackpool and no one is available at Preston who does.

 

[Agent_Squash]

the London > Preston crew don't sign Blackpool and no one is available at Preston who does.

Is there any reason why Euston drivers haven’t been given this knowledge? Especially considering Blackpool is basically a reversing siding for Avanti.

 

[DarloRich]

Is there any reason why Euston drivers haven’t been given this knowledge? Especially considering Blackpool is basically a reversing siding for Avanti.

no idea - perhaps just to upset passengers

( I did miss the word "perhaps" out of that sentence. I know nothing about how these things work. I guess you could ask the same question about why no X or Y. There must be a change over point somewhere)

 

[800001]

How can a train be reinstated if a member of the train crew is unavailable



And how can a train which is cancelled, make extra stops because a train is cancelled



And how can Avanti manage to find enough staff to operate a train between London and Preston, but there is no-one to take the train the short additional distance to Blackpool.



It seems to me as if Avanti are taking the public for fools, and regard operating train services as an inconvenience they would rather not have to put up with.

At train can be reinstated if they find someone to work it. Someone may of volunteered as a RDW, or a manager may work it.

 

[duncanp]

It seems to me you have an axe to grid. Virgin aren't coming back.

The other issues you highlight look like:

• a poorly worded communication,
• a train off route ( running via Crewe rather than Stoke - perhaps route singing issues)
• the London > Preston crew don't sign Blackpool and no one is available at Preston who does.

I don't have an axe to grind, and I am very well aware that Virgin aren't coming back, and also that Virgin weren't perfect when they did run.

All I would like is for Avanti to operate a reliable train service.

That is not too much to ask, is it?

I am supposed to be going from Birmingham to London next Tuesday, and I have no idea whether my outward or return trains are going to be running.

That is hardly a satisfactory situation, and the customer doesn't give a fig whether the management, unions or the government are to blame.

 

[Robertj21a]

I don't have an axe to grind, and I am very well aware that Virgin aren't coming back.

All I would like is for Avanti to operate a reliable train service.

That is not too much to ask, is it?

I am supposed to be going from Birmingham to London next Tuesday, and I have no idea whether my outward or return trains are going to be running.

That is hardly a satisfactory situation, and the customer doesn't give a fig whether the management, unions or the government are to blame.

Surely, you don't have to rely on just Avanti ?

 

[James90012]

A fair few of these trains end up running ECS when I've spot checked on Realtimetrains, so it's clear that Avanti have problems at all staffing levels and not one particular grade.

 

[DarloRich]

All I would like is for Avanti to operate a reliable train service.

They do, at least from where I live.

That is hardly a satisfactory situation, and the customer doesn't give a fig whether the management, unions or the government are to blame.

It is not, but it wont get any better until the government allow a deal to be done. That, of course, requires intelligence so we will be waiting a while!

 

[43066]

It’s rather ambiguous how it’s worded in the first place. There’s not much that could be double tripped anyway as it it would go over 10 hours.

What could you realistically do, other than a double Birmingham?

 

[duncanp]

They do, at least from where I live.

Well they don't operate a reliable service from Birmingham New Street, in either direction.

I am going to London next Tuesday, and the train I am booked on (the 05:50) was cancelled today.

Yesterday, three successive trains from Birmingham to London were cancelled, right in the middle of the Commonwealth Games when there are more people travelling.

The trains which are cancelled seem to change from day to day, and even if Avanti do condescend to operate my Southbound train next Tuesday, I have no idea whether I am going to be stuck at Euston, or for how long, on the way back.

And I am travelling on an Advance ticket, so I can't use LNW or Chiltern either.

 

[DarloRich]

The trains which are cancelled seem to change from day to day, and even if Avanti do condescend to operate my Southbound train next Tuesday, I have no idea whether I am going to be stuck at Euston, or for how long, on the way back.

And I am travelling on an Advance ticket, so I can't use LNW or Chiltern either.

Like I said it isn't going to get better until your man Johnson and his gang allow it to. They are the ones making your life harder than it should be. Be angry at them. I know that is hard for some people to acknowledge but try to focus on those to blame for the issues.

As for Avanti they aren't going to leave you stranded or send you home. They will let you travel on the next train and/or on alternative company trains and provide you with compensation. CLEARLY it isn't ideal but Avanti are not the first and wont be the last to face these issues. We all know trains run on voluntary overtime and when people are unhappy they wont go the extra mile that companies rely on to deliver what they promise.

 

[43066]

There is so much demand for railway jobs I can't see this being an actual issue. This is caused by management incompetence, not a lack of applicants. Not that I am suggesting it, but you could take £10K off driver pay and still get several applicants per post.

What is wrong with double tripping? A bus driver will do the same route lots of times in a day. And, crikey, what would they think of working the Stourbridge town car?

When qualified drivers see their colleagues joining and promptly leaving again, yes, they will have a problem getting more applicants.

As for the second paragraph, it’s hardly relevant, is it? They also have 12 hour movements of spare and work five day weeks with a week off every four weeks - so a good deal more flexible than other TOCs in other ways.

 

[The Planner]

How can a train be reinstated if a member of the train crew is unavailable



And how can a train which is cancelled, make extra stops because a train is cancelled



And how can Avanti manage to find enough staff to operate a train between London and Preston, but there is no-one to take the train the short additional distance to Blackpool.



It seems to me as if Avanti are taking the public for fools, and regard operating train services as an inconvenience they would rather not have to put up with.

Not sure why you are looking so minutely at the reasoning given, they are clearly something that have been whacked in quickly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They do, at least from where I live.

Wha? Have you even looked at RTT the past couple of weeks?

No, Avanti are definitely not operating a reliable service from MKC at present, and it's a bit silly to suggest that they are.

Well they don't operate a reliable service from Birmingham New Street, in either direction.

I am going to London next Tuesday, and the train I am booked on (the 05:50) was cancelled today.

Yesterday, three successive trains from Birmingham to London were cancelled, right in the middle of the Commonwealth Games when there are more people travelling.

The trains which are cancelled seem to change from day to day, and even if Avanti do condescend to operate my Southbound train next Tuesday, I have no idea whether I am going to be stuck at Euston, or for how long, on the way back.

And I am travelling on an Advance ticket, so I can't use LNW or Chiltern either.

If I were you I'd "book with confidence" refund it and use Chiltern instead. You might actually get there.

 

[DarloRich]

No, Avanti are definitely not operating a reliable service from MKC at present, and it's a bit silly to suggest that they are.

perhaps I have been lucky but every time I have aimed for an Avanti train to/from London it has turned up. That has been a couple of times a week for the last few weeks. I can only speak as I find.

There are cancellations but I havent been impacted by them. That's not to suggest others aren't impacted but from my point of view the service has been acceptable. I also have the option of the LNWR services which I concede many on the WCML wont have.

 

[Moonshot]

What could you realistically do, other than a double Birmingham?

Is it actually possible to do a double Manchester to Euston and not breach hidden regs etc?

 

[MP393]

But a quick glance at RTT shows a 0907,10.07,1107,1207 are running to Liverpool today.. nothing at xx47 as per the theme of this thread. If the xx07s were cancelled - wouldn't they be showing up on RTT by now ?

The xx47 refers to the time of trains departing FROM Liverpool - Euston, to which plenty of are cancelled today

Realtime Trains | Departures from Liverpool Lime Street all day on 04/08/2022

Train information at Liverpool Lime Street all day on 04/08/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it actually possible to do a double Manchester to Euston and not breach hidden regs etc?

It's about 2h10, isn't it? Would be tight.

No reason they shouldn't do two Birminghams though.

 

[43066]

Is it actually possible to do a double Manchester to Euston and not breach hidden regs etc?

Likely difficult for a lot of their work, I’d have thought? Even if they don’t strictly breach hidden there can be fatigue index considerations + needing to accommodate breaks etc.

We can do double trips but they’re quite tricky to roster for that reason (and we don’t go quite as far as they go!)

 

[Moonshot]

Likely difficult for a lot of their work, I’d have thought? Even if they don’t strictly breach hidden there can be fatigue index considerations + needing to accommodate breaks etc.

We can do double trips but they’re quite tricky to roster for that reason (and we don’t go quite as far as they go!)

We do have a fair few ourselves, but we ain't going that sort of distance in one hit anyway.

 

[pemma]

Nothing really changed about VTEC moving to LNER apart from the removal of 'optimistic' revenue targets and the halting of cost cutting to meet those targets.

Yes. I don't get the impression the main issues with LNER were things visible to passengers but a problem with the contract terms.

LNWR service is hardly an adequate replacement, considering that's hourly 8 car service too (when LNWR was 30 minutes, it was only 4 car service), AWC Liverpool services can often be heaving, plus the outcry would be tenfold if AWC pulled out of Liverpool

Agreed. Let's also remember for stations between Runcorn and Crewe, the Liverpool-Birmingham is the only service so if it's rammed from Liverpool, then it might be an issue for people wanting to get on at Winsford.

 

[liamf656]

It's about 2h10, isn't it? Would be tight.

No reason they shouldn't do two Birminghams though.

A lot of double trips happen on the MML. Most Sheffield based crew go to London (2h), then a round trip to Nottingham, then back to Sheffield with an hours break in London thrown in. I can’t speak for Avanti because I know nothing about route knowledge but would it be possible for, say, Manchester to London, then a round trip to Birmingham, then back up to Manchester, or vice versa?

 

[pemma]

perhaps I have been lucky but every time I have aimed for an Avanti train to/from London it has turned up. That has been a couple of times a week for the last few weeks. I can only speak as I find.

The Monday services from Manchester certainly weren't running to schedule. I was at Stockport and most of the announcements I heard were delays/cancellations to Avanti services due to staffing issues or a Northern cancellation due to staffing issues.

The 13:22 Stockport to London left at 14:03 and the stopper to Stoke had to be delayed by 10 minutes to allow it through. Avanti's own following service was delayed because their previous service was occupying platform 2 at Stockport and the station announcer did a good job at ensuring it was clear which train was which. So hopefully no one with an advance ticket boarded the wrong train or someone wanting Crewe ended up in Stoke.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A lot of double trips happen on the MML. Most Sheffield based crew go to London (2h), then a round trip to Nottingham, then back to Sheffield with an hours break in London thrown in. I can’t speak for Avanti because I know nothing about route knowledge but would it be possible for, say, Manchester to London, then a round trip to Birmingham, then back up to Manchester, or vice versa?

I think the thing that's banned is double tripping the same route, isn't it? That would only be possible time-wise for Brum.

 

[43066]

We do have a fair few ourselves, but we ain't going that sort of distance in one hit anyway.

We have a couple of diagrams covering over 500 miles driving which, fair to say, is a long day out!

I’d imagine Avanti’s max driving mileage is slightly less than that due to no double tripping, albeit they will do things like drive London - Birmingham, pass Birmingham - Manchester, drive Manchester - London, so no less time wise.

 

[MattRat]

How can a train be reinstated if a member of the train crew is unavailable

And how can a train which is cancelled, make extra stops because a train is cancelled

And how can Avanti manage to find enough staff to operate a train between London and Preston, but there is no-one to take the train the short additional distance to Blackpool.

It seems to me as if Avanti are taking the public for fools, and regard operating train services as an inconvenience they would rather not have to put up with.

It also seems to me like there are a lot of loopholes in contracts that mean staff don't have to work and still get paid. Now, maybe working conditions are so bad that they see it as reasonable to abuse their contracts, but I'd prefer them striking. Loopholes should be closed, and things like work conditions sorted through proper channels.

 

[Dieseldriver]

With this double tripping thing, can there not be an agreement reached that says (for example) the diagrams with double tripping can only represent a total of 50% of the long term diagrams for that particular depot?