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Merseyrail 777 battery provision could see many extensions to the Merseyrail network?

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Skie

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All of the 777 units will now have batteries fitted, with funding provided by the City Region Sustainable Transport Settlement


Article said:
The Independently Powered Electric Multiple Unit project will be expanded to fit all Merseyrail trains with battery technology to enable services to run beyond the end of the existing network.

Good news, should mean extensions to non 3rd rail areas are much simpler and less complicated when you have a homogenous fleet.

Edit: This isn’t quite true sadly, but there will be battery units and they have a decent range so the thread continues
 
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Bletchleyite

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Yeah, that's good news and should if nothing else prevent random cancellations at Kirkby when a non battery unit got onto the wrong diagram!

Helsby anyone?
 

Nicholas Lewis

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All of the 777 units will now have batteries fitted, with funding provided by the City Region Sustainable Transport Settlement


Good news, should mean extensions to non 3rd rail areas are much simpler and less complicated when you have a homogenous fleet.
Maybe but how long will they be karting around batteries without them being used - i would suggest 5+ years. Might be a bit more useful actually making them available for the communities that are paying for them through their council taxes.
 

Bletchleyite

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Maybe but how long will they be karting around batteries without them being used - i would suggest 5+ years. Might be a bit more useful actually making them available for the communities that are paying for them through their council taxes.

At least all the Northern Line ones will likely visit Headbolt Lane at some point to ensure they're used.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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At least all the Northern Line ones will likely visit Headbolt Lane at some point to ensure they're used.
Fair enough but your karting around several tonnes of extra weight that has to be accelerated after every stop using up additional energy.
 

dm1

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I suspect the idea is to use the batteries while on electrified sections as well to reduce substation load and total power consumption. In terms of energy the additional mass is less of a problem, since the energy used to accelerate the battery can be regenerated and stored upon braking. There might be some additional track wear, but given that they would be going where the transformer was going to be for 25kV it's possible there was a ballast weight there already.

In theory it also significantly simplifies depot and maintenance arrangements, since much less redundancy would be required, although I suspect it's probably too late to make use of this in the upgrades completed already.
 

Skie

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During the trials the benefits of using the batteries to store the power from regenerative braking was significant and was expected to help reduce the overall electricity usage for battery fitted trains significantly, so they’ll find a way to use battery power more frequently to enable regen to be stored rather than put back into the network.

Network side regen power usage is limited to there being a receptive load (an accelerating train) otherwise it would normally be shed as waste heat, so the batteries help maximise that energy saving by ensuring it has somewhere to go at all times.
 

507020

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During the trials the benefits of using the batteries to store the power from regenerative braking was significant and was expected to help reduce the overall electricity usage for battery fitted trains significantly, so they’ll find a way to use battery power more frequently to enable regen to be stored rather than put back into the network.

Network side regen power usage is limited to there being a receptive load (an accelerating train) otherwise it would normally be shed as waste heat, so the batteries help maximise that energy saving by ensuring it has somewhere to go at all times.
The issue with this is that the battery needs to be empty to accept regenerative braking energy, but “full” to reach Headbolt Lane, although this won’t require as much energy from the same capacity battery as any of the longer potential battery routes. If a service is extended beyond Hunts Cross, the batteries will also need replacing with transformers for 25kV capability once the CLC line is electrified.
 

XAM2175

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Network side regen power usage is limited to there being a receptive load (an accelerating train) otherwise it would normally be shed as waste heat, so the batteries help maximise that energy saving by ensuring it has somewhere to go at all times.
Yes, this is excellent news for both this reason and also operational simplicity.
 

Mollman

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If a service is extended beyond Hunts Cross, the batteries will also need replacing with transformers for 25kV capability once the CLC line is electrified.
Unfortunately I can see the 100% battery fleet to be another excuse for not electrifying the CLC
 

Skie

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Would they make wrexham ?
Not on a single charge. I think the calculation was add charging infrastructure to Wrexham and 2 intermediate stops. Dwell times at those intermediate stops would be about 2 minutes to ensure a sufficient charge.
 

Bletchleyite

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Unfortunately I can see the 100% battery fleet to be another excuse for not electrifying the CLC

If they can run on the CLC to Warrington on battery just fine, why does that matter? Though wires are probably still desirable for the other end unless it's being trammed.

I'd be more concerned about running to Warrington knackering the punctuality of the Northern Line, to be honest, unless there is a set of buffers put in at Warrington C. The CLC isn't known for timeliness.
 

TheSel

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If a service is extended beyond Hunts Cross, the batteries will also need replacing with transformers for 25kV capability once the CLC line is electrified.
Why? Is it not possible to run under (but not connected to) wires whilst using battery power? Surely a line either has third rail, or it doesn't. I can't see why the presence or absence of 25kV overhead makes a difference..
 

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If they can run on the CLC to Warrington on battery just fine, why does that matter? Though wires are probably still desirable for the other end unless it's being trammed.

I'd be more concerned about running to Warrington knackering the punctuality of the Northern Line, to be honest, unless there is a set of buffers put in at Warrington C. The CLC isn't known for timeliness.

As for trains to Warrington Central, that is going to be a tad tricky where buffers are concerned as only two tracks (Westbound and Eastbound) run through the station.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Maybe but how long will they be karting around batteries without them being used - i would suggest 5+ years. Might be a bit more useful actually making them available for the communities that are paying for them through their council taxes.
Must admit I'm somewhat sceptical about the wisdom of the "batteries will solve all problems" approach. They're heavy, expensive, not particularly sustainable to produce, and more often than not an excuse to not use the established technology that we already know works.
 

8A Rail

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As for trains to Warrington Central, that is going to be a tad tricky where buffers are concerned as only two tracks (Westbound and Eastbound) run through the station.

I meant splitting it completely Ormskirk style.

There are sidings east of the station by the ex CLC Warehouse which could be used for that purpose, so no need to split ala Ormskirk style and trains will still be required to operate through Central station which currently operated by Northern, EMT and TP Express (or what ever names they be in the future under GB Railways). You just cannot transfer these trains to another line (i.e. L&M line / Runcorn LNWR line) without affecting exisiting trains on those lines because of buffer stops at Warrington Central. Likewise it would stop the direct service connections to / from Liverpool or is that some people's aspirations for wanting that to happen? :s
 

L+Y

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Apologies if this has been covered upthread, but what's the theoretical range of these batteries?

And is there enough slack in the fleet to allow for, say, hourly extensions to Wrexham, Helsby, Wallgate and Preston, or would more units need to be ordered?
 

507020

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Unfortunately I can see the 100% battery fleet to be another excuse for not electrifying the CLC
CLC and Rochdale 25kV electrification has already been announced.
Why? Is it not possible to run under (but not connected to) wires whilst using battery power? Surely a line either has third rail, or it doesn't. I can't see why the presence or absence of 25kV overhead makes a difference..
Running on battery under the wires will be much less efficient and therefore much more expensive. Such a waste of energy and money is to be avoided. Even worse if the battery is only charged on the less efficient 3rd rail with the new wires just sitting there.
I meant splitting it completely Ormskirk style.
That would be unacceptable. Kirkby is already being reconnected due to the back to back layout being unsafe. A better option would be to reverse at Birchwood, thus providing increased frequency Warrington West - Birchwood.
Apologies if this has been covered upthread, but what's the theoretical range of these batteries?

And is there enough slack in the fleet to allow for, say, hourly extensions to Wrexham, Helsby, Wallgate and Preston, or would more units need to be ordered?
The range of the batteries should be sufficient for the places you suggest with minimal infrastructure intervention, but 52 777s replace 59 507s and 508s, of which 56 survive, with 777053 extra for Headbolt Lane. There isn’t really enough slack in the fleet to run enough 6/8 cars to meet demand as it is and more would definitely need to be ordered for any extensions given that even Headbolt Lane was considered too much of a stretch.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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The range of the batteries should be sufficient for the places you suggest with minimal infrastructure intervention, but 52 777s replace 59 507s and 508s, of which 56 survive, with 777053 extra for Headbolt Lane. There isn’t really enough slack in the fleet to run enough 6/8 cars to meet demand as it is and more would definitely need to be ordered for any extensions given that even Headbolt Lane was considered too much of a stretch.
Much point fitting all the units with batteries then!
 

Bletchleyite

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There are sidings east of the station by the ex CLC Warehouse which could be used for that purpose, so no need to split ala Ormskirk style and trains will still be required to operate through Central station which currently operated by Northern, EMT and TP Express (or what ever names they be in the future under GB Railways). You just cannot transfer these trains to another line (i.e. L&M line / Runcorn LNWR line) without affecting exisiting trains on those lines because of buffer stops at Warrington Central. Likewise it would stop the direct service connections to / from Liverpool or is that some people's aspirations for wanting that to happen? :s

Then it shouldn't go past Hunts Cross. My point is simply that importing Castlefield delays onto the most punctual TOC in the country is unacceptable.

Much point fitting all the units with batteries then!

One key benefit is more effective regen, as has already been said above.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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One key benefit is more effective regen, as has already been said above.
Yup thats a fair point but you need a discharged battery in the first place to benefit from energy recuperation. You aint going to use very much tootling down to Headbolt Lane and back and its only going to be a few units everyday doing that cycle vs the extra energy costs of accelerating the mass of the batteries from every station.
 

Bletchleyite

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Yup thats a fair point but you need a discharged battery in the first place to benefit from energy recuperation. You aint going to use very much tootling down to Headbolt Lane and back and its only going to be a few units everyday doing that cycle vs the extra energy costs of accelerating the mass of the batteries from every station.

I suspect the software will do something like aim to hold the charge at about 80 to 90% which would allow regen to be put in and used but keep more than enough for Headbolt Lane and back.

It is noted above that the added regen more than offsets the extra weight.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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I suspect the software will do something like aim to hold the charge at about 80 to 90% which would allow regen to be put in and used but keep more than enough for Headbolt Lane and back.

It is noted above that the added regen more than offsets the extra weight.
Not between Kirby and Headbolt lane it won't but if the battery is used to support acceleration under ordinary running then it will be part discharged after every station start so battery can be recuperated under braking. That would expose the battery to a lot more cycles of course but even if batteries degrade quicker given the price of leccy its a sensible operating regime. The above press brief doesn't give enough technical info for the rationale for adding batteries now but if the above operating regime is going to be adopted then it would.
 

507020

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Not between Kirby and Headbolt lane it won't but if the battery is used to support acceleration under ordinary running then it will be part discharged after every station start so battery can be recuperated under braking. That would expose the battery to a lot more cycles of course but even if batteries degrade quicker given the price of leccy its a sensible operating regime. The above press brief doesn't give enough technical info for the rationale for adding batteries now but if the above operating regime is going to be adopted then it would.
The 3rd rail, or rather DC transmission is significantly less efficient than the high voltage AC overhead wires. Charging a battery from either source and then discharging it is less efficient than using energy directly. Recovering braking energy using the battery which would otherwise be lost either by friction brakes or rheostatic if the 3rd rail was not able to accept it increases efficiency from 0% so there is some benefit and as well as potentially improving acceleration, it will also reduce the load on the 3rd rail, which has recently had its maximum current increased above anything implemented on the SR.

Conversely, charging the battery from the 3rd rail purely to run on it under the wires puts a significant extra load on the 3rd rail and introduces multiple layers of inefficiency which are not beneficial. Perhaps if Warrington/Birchwood is an early battery extension and additional battery units are ordered beyond 53, further battery extensions could be authorised to coincide with CLC electrification, with existing battery units cascaded to those routes and new AC fitted units ordered instead. Bear in mind the impending need for Sprinter replacements, which battery 777s will relieve on “low priority” routes in close proximity to Merseyrail while also providing vastly improved service.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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The 3rd rail, or rather DC transmission is significantly less efficient than the high voltage AC overhead wires. Charging a battery from either source and then discharging it is less efficient than using energy directly. Recovering braking energy using the battery which would otherwise be lost either by friction brakes or rheostatic if the 3rd rail was not able to accept it increases efficiency from 0% so there is some benefit and as well as potentially improving acceleration, it will also reduce the load on the 3rd rail, which has recently had its maximum current increased above anything implemented on the SR.
As i say if the operating mode is going to be to always use the batteries for acceleration, even when on 3rd rail, then overall energy efficiency will be improved as your guaranteed to have somewhere to recover the energy lost in braking especially as regen is really only effective where traffic is high density. Also the problem with DC systems is when they are beefed up they come become less receptive as average voltage at the shoegear will be higher. Im not aware of technicalities of the PS upgrade but i'd be surprised if its higher than the "high current" standard on SR which was 6.8kA as that was designed to support a class 373 Eurostar (it was gutless mind you [on 750V DC of course]).
Conversely, charging the battery from the 3rd rail purely to run on it under the wires puts a significant extra load on the 3rd rail and introduces multiple layers of inefficiency which are not beneficial.
Conceptually it doesn't make sense to run under the wires but then lots of things don't on todays railway. The additional load on the traction system depends on the state of charge of the battery and how quickly you want to recharge it. The trains are nominally rated at 1.5MW with 2.1MW quoted as peak power so whenever the train isn't motoring that capacity can be diverted to charging along with whatever you get back when regening. Well designed software can easily managed the situation.
Perhaps if Warrington/Birchwood is an early battery extension and additional battery units are ordered beyond 53, further battery extensions could be authorised to coincide with CLC electrification, with existing battery units cascaded to those routes and new AC fitted units ordered instead. Bear in mind the impending need for Sprinter replacements, which battery 777s will relieve on “low priority” routes in close proximity to Merseyrail while also providing vastly improved service.
I actually believe Merseryrail have some vision here about what could be done with these units but with the way things are currently not sure we will see it realised anytime soon unfortunately.
 

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I don't think you need much vision to work out what could be done with them, as it's fairly obvious - Preston, Wigan, Helsby, Wrexham and Warrington are basically the options, plus the less likely one of Southport via Burscough South Curve. There aren't enough units to do them all, though, and Warrington (unless it was segregated and the other side Metrolink) would have the serious disadvantage of importing Castlefield unpunctuality, so politically we will have to see.
 

507020

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As i say if the operating mode is going to be to always use the batteries for acceleration, even when on 3rd rail, then overall energy efficiency will be improved as your guaranteed to have somewhere to recover the energy lost in braking especially as regen is really only effective where traffic is high density. Also the problem with DC systems is when they are beefed up they come become less receptive as average voltage at the shoegear will be higher. Im not aware of technicalities of the PS upgrade but i'd be surprised if its higher than the "high current" standard on SR which was 6.8kA as that was designed to support a class 373 Eurostar (it was gutless mind you [on 750V DC of course]).
If only the battery was used for acceleration and only charged from the third rail, not braking and if no power was drawn directly from the third rail for acceleration, the system would be hugely inefficient. Only if the battery is predominantly charged by regenerative braking, with charging from the third rail only used to improve acceleration while reducing the load on the third rail, or when the unit needs to run off the third rail, but not under the wires, except to Preston where this requires running over unelectrified infrastructure to reach the overhead wires, is it possible for overall efficiency to be improved.

The full technical standard for the third rail on the SR allows for a certain amount of current at 750V, but nowhere on the SR is it actually implemented. The Merseyrail upgrade still does not exceed this SR standard but the installed current capability is now higher than anywhere on the SR. I forget the exact values but they are in a nearly 2 hour long video with David Powell.
Conceptually it doesn't make sense to run under the wires but then lots of things don't on todays railway. The additional load on the traction system depends on the state of charge of the battery and how quickly you want to recharge it. The trains are nominally rated at 1.5MW with 2.1MW quoted as peak power so whenever the train isn't motoring that capacity can be diverted to charging along with whatever you get back when regening. Well designed software can easily managed the situation.
The hardware may well be able to deal with the additional load, but if the purpose of the batteries is to reduce the load on the traction system, running on battery under the wires doesn’t make sense unless you have to run over unelectrified infrastructure to reach them, in which case the battery is more efficient than Diesel. I’m sure the battery charge rate can be controlled in software to ensure that the battery isn’t too full to accept regenerative braking energy but is always full enough not to strand the train when running off the third rail. 1.5kW and 2.1kW should be the input power to the motor. A single train should be able to draw more power than that to power auxiliaries including battery charging but you wouldn’t be able to sustain many doing that at once.
I actually believe Merseryrail have some vision here about what could be done with these units but with the way things are currently not sure we will see it realised anytime soon unfortunately.
The main priority does remain being able to replace the virtually 45 year old 507/508 fleet with what should be much more capable modern units that have already been built, but this has so far proved impossible.
I don't think you need much vision to work out what could be done with them, as it's fairly obvious - Preston, Wigan, Helsby, Wrexham and Warrington are basically the options, plus the less likely one of Southport via Burscough South Curve. There aren't enough units to do them all, though, and Warrington (unless it was segregated and the other side Metrolink) would have the serious disadvantage of importing Castlefield unpunctuality, so politically we will have to see.
There are questions of going beyond Preston, Helsby and Warrington, but the problem with the CLC is the number of additional non-stations other than Irlam east of Birchwood. Liverpool - Ormskirk - Southport is currently looking one of the most likely, following its inclusion in Steve Rotheram’s map. The reality is that there aren’t enough units ordered to run any extensions at all and that 52 wasn’t considered enough even to run Headbolt Lane, so any potential extensions will warrant the procurement of further units.
 

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I don't think you need much vision to work out what could be done with them, as it's fairly obvious - Preston, Wigan, Helsby, Wrexham and Warrington are basically the options, plus the less likely one of Southport via Burscough South Curve. There aren't enough units to do them all, though, and Warrington (unless it was segregated and the other side Metrolink) would have the serious disadvantage of importing Castlefield unpunctuality, so politically we will have to see.
Todays railway doesn't do obvious
 
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