Declassification of First Class on busy long distance services

[JamieL]

Over the last twelve months I have become a regular train user commuting between work places in Bristol, London and Glasgow. With the extent of roadworks these days driving is miserable and flying often takes 5 hours door-to-door - in any event both means of transport are dead time where it is impossible to do any work. Mid-Winter I was using the Caledonian Sleeper service as my main means of transport which was okay albeit the "glide through the night" description on the website is, in my experience, not quite the reality. More recently I have been using Avanti where their First Class compartments has provided the opportunity to get work done on the train and seemed to be the optimum solution. The First Class carriages are reasonably well staffed and whenever there has been an issue (crying children), the staff have always offered to move me to a quieter seat. However, having done the London-Glasgow journey about 20 times times now, I have had First declassified twice - a 10% hit rate. One occasion was okay - the carriage filled up but remained reasonably quiet - but the second occasion it effectively became a party carriage as some very loud and drunk individuals came onboard.

So, first, a few quick question for the regular rail users.
1. Is the 10% declassified rate I have witnessed typical on Avanti?
2. Has anyone any experience of Cross Country First Class? Does it get declassified much? The Bristol to Glasgow journey is long (8+hrs) and slower than train hopping but could provide a better option rather than risking the Avanti?

Second, is a more general question, who is First Class actually aimed at? I normally travel in Standard when commuting for leisure but opt for First for business travel as I can work. I sort of assumed it was the same for most mid-week First travelers but this seems entirely at odds with declassifying. If the First Class service - and by that I mean table, power sockets, quieter coach, basic refreshments - isn't offered in a reliable form, what value is it for it business users? If there is a likelihood of dead time where no work can be done, flying is probably the better option in order to minimise it.

 

[Bill57p9]

What I have picked up is that frequency of declassification has increased on Avanti due to the number of cancellations they are making - itself due to drivers declining rest day working.

Avanti have just introduced a reduced timetable - designed to be achievable. Therefore a reasonable estimate would be for the frequency of declassification on Avanti to remain until the number of services increases.

Personally I found Premium Standard the sweet spot: not much more to pay (if they even bother to collect) but a lot easier to work.

It doesn't fix the service, however you are entitled to a refund on your first class ticket (the difference between standard and first) in the event of declassification.

 

[Birmingham]

2. Has anyone any experience of Cross Country First Class? Does it get declassified much? The Bristol to Glasgow journey is long (8+hrs) and slower than train hopping but could provide a better option rather than risking the Avanti?

I find it is very rare indeed that First Class is declassified on CrossCountry. They seem to wish very much to maintain the premium environment for their highest-paying customers (which makes sense when you look at the pricing!).

 

[Re 4/4]

I did Edinburgh to Bristol on a very cheap first class advance on XC once before the pandemic. Seats were comfortable, coach more than half empty, food was ok and staff very friendly. I don't think it'd be worth the full price upgrade for me, but I have only positive things to say about the experience.

 

[DelayRepay]

2. Has anyone any experience of Cross Country First Class? Does it get declassified much? The Bristol to Glasgow journey is long (8+hrs) and slower than train hopping but could provide a better option rather than risking the Avanti?

I've not done this journey, but personally I would find it difficult to spend eight hours on a train, irrespective of the quality of the first class accommodation/catering etc (with the exception, obviously, of the sleeper).

 

[Bald Rick]

I use Avanti about once a week on average, and have never seen first class declassified. It does happen of course, and will be more likely to happen currently, but is a fairly rare event.

 

[mike57]

Second, is a more general question, who is First Class actually aimed at? I normally travel in Standard when commuting for leisure but opt for First for business travel as I can work. I sort of assumed it was the same for most mid-week First travelers but this seems entirely at odds with declassifying. If the First Class service - and by that I mean table, power sockets, quieter coach, basic refreshments - isn't offered in a reliable form, what value is it for it business users? If there is a likelihood of dead time where no work can be done, flying is probably the better option in order to minimise it.

We normally use First Class advance ticket on Hull Trains (and some other TOCs) for leisure journeys. If you book reasonably well in advance, and we have railcards, we think the more pleasant environment, more comfortable seating, food and drink is worth the extra outlay. Looking at the passenger profile in 1st class on Hull Trains I would say its an even split between leisure and business travellers. However I couldnt justify full price 1st class for leisure travel. (And a lot of our leisure journeys are midweek)

On work journeys 1st class is available if its a long journey, but we are expected to get the best deal by using the cheapest ticket that meets the journey needs.

On our journeys I have never experienced Hull Trains 1st being declassified and LNER on one occasion a few years back. I think you can claim comp if you have a first class ticket and its declassified, but I dont know what the mechanism is.

 

[Falcon1200]

The only occasion I have experienced First Class on Avanti declassified was last year, during massive disruption caused by a train failure, although I did see another service advertised at Glasgow Central last week as having no First Class. I agree that First on XC is good, even in a Voyager, better again if you are lucky enough to be on one of their HST-formed services, however they operate hardly any trains to Glasgow now so a change to Scotrail at Edinburgh is usually required. I have never seen First on XC declassified.

 

[modernrail]

I use Avanti about once a week on average, and have never seen first class declassified. It does happen of course, and will be more likely to happen currently, but is a fairly rare event.

It is definitely happening more, on the last 3 Avanti services I have been on for instance.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I think Avanti probably declassify more than anyone else. I've only known XC declassified once and that was simply overcrowding and people had nowhere else to go. The TM did consider making everyone move, but as that would involve throwing off around 80 people it wasn't going to happen & it wasn't for long before First Class was restored. Avanti tend to keep it declassified once they've done it.

 

[DarloRich]

I wish more companies would declassify first class. Permanently. Vive la révolution

Seriously, if a train is ram packed then first should be declassified in part or in whole.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wish more companies would declassify first class. Permanently. Vive la révolution

First Class is just a means of paying a bit more for a bigger seat. I'd like it to move to just that, not it being an arbitrary social class divide. That's why I like Standard Premium.

I would get rid of it on all short distance and commuter TOCs - for instance on LNR only the Crewes should have it.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I wish more companies would declassify first class. Permanently. Vive la révolution

I've often though XC would be better with no 1st. They'd be able to ram even more people on

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've often though XC would be better with no 1st. They'd be able to ram even more people on

XC has the strongest case for 1st of any TOC (bar Caledonian Sleeper) as they have the longest distance trains. However it should cost 1.5 times Standard (reflecting the extra space taken up) and not include freebies other than maybe very basic stuff like tea/coffee. Oh, and the trains should be long enough.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I would get rid of it on all short distance and commuter TOCs - for instance on LNR only the Crewes should have it.

To be honest, I'm not even sure they should.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be honest, I'm not even sure they should.

They provide the main long-distance service to a number of stations, so yes, I'd say they should. But not any other LNR services which are primarily local services.

That they're run by the local TOC is a bit of a quirk - they're really analogous to the LNER York semifasts (xx06 off the Cross).

 

[Deafdoggie]

XC has the strongest case for 1st of any TOC (bar Caledonian Sleeper) as they have the longest distance trains. However it should cost 1.5 times Standard (reflecting the extra space taken up) and not include freebies other than maybe very basic stuff like tea/coffee. Oh, and the trains should be long enough.

But I guess the highest leisure and lowest business travellers. But I'm guessing. It's always very lightly loaded in there.

 

[DarloRich]

I've often though XC would be better with no 1st. They'd be able to ram even more people on

on a 4 couch train it cant make enough money to be worth it, surely.

it boils my pizzle to be on a rammed XC mobile lavatory and see 1 person in first. Just chuck them off and let us in. I bet they are on a railcard and paying less than me. it is enough to make you support Jeremy Corbyn!

Virgin in the good old days: 3 coaches of FC on a 9 car train. Loads of space in FC while I am sat in a luggage rack ( on a good day!) I bet their yearly FC ticket spend wasn't as much as my season ticket.

 

[Deafdoggie]

on a 4 couch train it cant make enough money to be worth it, surely.

it boils my pizzle to be on a rammed XC mobile lavatory and see 1 person in first. Just chuck them off and let us in.

I quite agree. Even the extra they're paying can't be worth it.

 

[LowLevel]

I find it is very rare indeed that First Class is declassified on CrossCountry. They seem to wish very much to maintain the premium environment for their highest-paying customers (which makes sense when you look at the pricing!).

I see quite a lot of Cross Country trains and there's hardly ever more than a handful in it outside weekends, and I suspect a reasonable number of those are pass holders

 

[Bletchleyite]

But I guess the highest leisure and lowest business travellers. But I'm guessing. It's always very lightly loaded in there.

1st is now a leisure and self-upgrade product. The vast majority of businesses will no longer pay it.

One reason XC 1st is so empty is because their pricing model dissuades self-upgrade by refusing to do Weekend First on an Advance, and by not having a weekday product.

 

[AlterEgo]

I see quite a lot of Cross Country trains and there's hardly ever more than a handful in it outside weekends, and I suspect a reasonable number of those are pass holders

Try being in 1st on an XC 170 and spot the pass holders!

 

[higthomas]

Strange. I think I've travelled on Avanti 6 times this summer, and I think 3 were declassified.

 

[station_road]

At the weekends, Avanti only have 18 First Class seats on a Pendolino (out of up to 588 seats on a refurbished 11 coach train) - declassifying is going to make no difference except to annoy the small number of people who have paid more for their journey.

 

[Bald Rick]

… on a 4 couch train …

Now that’s luxury!

 

[alistairlees]

Now that’s luxury!

Unfortunately the overnight trains with couches (four of them!) on no longer have the couches...

 

[LowLevel]

Try being in 1st on an XC 170 and spot the pass holders!

Bar the odd long distance advance on the Stansteds and Cardiffs, I'd assume that it's basically all of them. Who would pay first class on a Leicester stopper Just a shame it's the only part of the train with any kind of charging socket.

 

[Starmill]

It is definitely happening more, on the last 3 Avanti services I have been on for instance.

Disruption is now so serious that it is inevitable that both Standard Premium and First Class will be declassified when the train is full and standing.

What do people think that the train manager is going to do once all of their standard seats are taken and all of the vestibules are full, just force people to leave the train and be left behind? It doesn't really matter if Avanti choose to declassify the two spaces or not, people will stand in them regardless when the train is so busy. There is no possibility of an onboard ticket inspection in such a crowded train. Doing it formally at least means there's a suitable log of what has happened though, which can be referred to when customers with Premium or First tickets write in to claim their partial refund.

 

[43066]

it boils my pizzle to be on a rammed XC mobile lavatory and see 1 person in first. Just chuck them off and let us in. I bet they are on a railcard and paying less than me. it is enough to make you support Jeremy Corbyn!

I expect that one person enjoys sitting in first and seeing you glowering in at them from the crowded vestibule. It’s probably worth every penny .

Choice is a good thing. You also have the choice to book advanced first? Or ask the TM nicely, tell them you work on the railway, and they might just let you in too.

 

[Nova1]

I’ve travelled in XC first class a few times and enjoyed it. Often when standard is packed, first will only have a few people in which is nice.

If you’re not using an advance ticket then on weekends (and some holidays) it’s just £15 to get into first which is a good deal imo, there’s not always food and drinks available but when there is it is appreciated. I find the seats to be comfy and a sturdy table a plus.