Avanti in crisis talks to consider OLR

[Sebastian O]

I’ve heard on twitter and from a few friends inside Avanti that they are in talks, possibly running to the wire, to move into control of the OLR.

Has anyone heard about this, or can shed any further light?

OLR - operator of last resort.

 

[zwk500]

If its as tight as you say, anybody who can shed actual light is presumably in the room negotiating!

 

[Vespa]

I have to say it was only a matter of time, the writings was on the wall since Avanti started dropping service standards, cancelling trains and running down services.

 

[Peter0124]

Don't mind if I ask what OLR actually means?

 

[WizCastro197]

Operator of Last Resort

DfT Holdings or some company owned by the department of transport takes over a franchise and reverts back into public hands.

 

[Geeves]

Operator of last resort.

 

[Signal_Box]

What will change even with OLR? You’ll still have 96% of the current management team, you’ll still have a serious crew shortage, you’ll still have industrial unrest and moral so low it’s freezing.

Just another drain on the ever decreasing industry bank account.

 

[Backroom_boy]

What will change even with OLR? You’ll still have 96% of the current management team, you’ll still have a serious crew shortage, you’ll still have industrial unrest and moral so low it’s freezing.

Just another drain on the ever decreasing industry bank account.

Did Northern under OLR change for the better, or were the improvements coming anyway?

 

[thedbdiboy]

What will change even with OLR? You’ll still have 96% of the current management team, you’ll still have a serious crew shortage, you’ll still have industrial unrest and moral so low it’s freezing.

Just another drain on the ever decreasing industry bank account.

Bizarrely, OLR TOCs actually get more freedom to make decisions and try things out. All the time there is an owning group plc in the mix, decisions and negotiations have an extra layer of directors and lawyers to go through. So whilst it wouldn't transform the TOC overnight, it should remove some of the stages needed to agree what needs to happen and how it will be funded.

 

[DanNCL]

The issue that Avanti has which no other TOC has is that they've gone to the media to slag off their employees. There's been a breakdown in trust between management and employees and I think it's become clear that it's now irreparable with the current management.

 

[WizCastro197]

Did Northern under OLR change for the better, or were the improvements coming anyway?

I think Northern switched to OLR because the extreme volume of cancellations. Please correct me if wrong I am not from the north at all!!

 

[Clarence Yard]

The improvements in Northern were coming anyway but being cynical about it, the DfT could use the money saved in not having to pay the management fee for Avanti to put right some of the issues they have caused in the first place! And they can show they are being “hard” in the process. Moving to OLR can sometimes be more political than anything else - Northern was a good example of this.

Having said that, the current management have not helped matters at all. Losing the messroom in the way they have done is pretty terminal.

But the NRC negotiations are meant to be ongoing at the moment and moving into OLR is always the alternative in those negotiations so OLR will be in dialogue with Avanti as part of that process. Whatever the way forward, we shall shortly see what happens to Avanti as the ERMA runs out in a (relatively) few weeks time.

 

[DanNCL]

I think Northern switched to OLR because the extreme volume of cancellations. Please correct me if wrong I am not from the north at all!!

That may be the offical reason, but I think we all know the real reason was to make the Tories look like they'd done something good for the north, considering they'd just won a lot of "red wall" seats.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

We’re unlikely to notice a difference. They’ll slap some paint the same colour as the bodyside underneath over “Avanti” and we’ll be left with “West Coast”



Something like that (excuse the blurriness)
Is it confirmed that Avanti may go to the OLR, or is this Speculative? If so, you might want to consider asking the mods to move the thread

 

[3141]

If this happened, it would have important implications for HS2. Bidders for the West Coast franchise were required to include a partner with experience in running high speed services. Hence First partnered with Trenitalia. Avanti is not just running the West Coast route as it is, but planning for the development of future high speed services and the rolling stock. Finding OLR personnel able to take over these responsibilities wouldn't be easy.

 

[Signal_Box]

Did Northern under OLR change for the better, or were the improvements coming anyway?

No idea to be honest, no my part of the world.

In simple terms a rebrand would probably be required like northern, even that costs money even if it is just to remove any legacy first logos etc.

 

[DanNCL]

Is it confirmed that Avanti may go to the OLR, or is this Speculative? If so, you might want to consider asking the mods to move the thread

As is the nature with these things there's unlikely to be any sort of confirmation until it's already happening.

If this happened, it would have important implications for HS2. Bidders for the West Coast franchise were required to include a partner with experience in running high speed services. Hence First partnered with Trenitalia. Avanti is not just running the West Coast route as it is, but planning for the development of future high speed services and the rolling stock. Finding OLR personnel able to take over these responsibilities wouldn't be easy.

The OLR technically meets the DFT imposed 'experienced' high speed operator requirement because of their operation of Southeastern since last October. Although that would be pushing the definition somewhat.

 

[Signal_Box]

Bizarrely, OLR TOCs actually get more freedom to make decisions and try things out. All the time there is an owning group plc in the mix, decisions and negotiations have an extra layer of directors and lawyers to go through. So whilst it wouldn't transform the TOC overnight, it should remove some of the stages needed to agree what needs to happen and how it will be funded.

Even with the new national rail contracts?
I’m all for improvements, and quickly but I’m sceptical if OLR will actually improve matters which are running so deep.

 

[TUC]

Did Northern under OLR change for the better, or were the improvements coming anyway?

The improvements were coming anyway. No increases in competence or creativity could be detected.

 

[JamieL]

If this happened, it would have important implications for HS2. Bidders for the West Coast franchise were required to include a partner with experience in running high speed services. Hence First partnered with Trenitalia. Avanti is not just running the West Coast route as it is, but planning for the development of future high speed services and the rolling stock. Finding OLR personnel able to take over these responsibilities wouldn't be easy.

Even more reason to bin Avanti now before the current mess gets entrenched many decades into the future.

 

[Agent_Squash]

That may be the offical reason, but I think we all know the real reason was to make the Tories look like they'd done something good for the north, considering they'd just won a lot of "red wall" seats.

This. Northern was largely recovering with the arrival of the 195s/331s - OLR really hasn't made much difference other than to make the Government look good.

The OLR technically meets the DFT imposed 'experienced' high speed operator requirement because of their operation of Southeastern since last October. Although that would be pushing the definition somewhat.

Wasn't the requirement operation of services +250km/h (thus excluding OLR)?

SNCF would've made a much better partner anyway, but obviously were bought down in the Stagecoach pension fiasco.

Branson must be grinning that they got lost.

 

[paul1609]

Pretty sure when OLR took over Southeastern, Roger Ford was saying that was all the capacity taken and that an alternative vehicle would be required in the event of another franchise being handed back.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Perhaps First Group have become complacent? They operate six TOCs after all. Maybe they got too confident.

 

[DanNCL]

Wasn't the requirement operation of services +250km/h (thus excluding OLR)?

I can't remember to be honest!

Perhaps First Group have become complacent? They operate six TOCs after all. Maybe they got too confident.

All bar one (GWR) of their 'franchised' TOCs are failing too.

 

[WizCastro197]

I have read that Labour has Contacted Grant whatever and has asked for the complete restoration of the timetable or the stripping of avantis franchise?

Wish they'd do the same for Thameslink but we all live in a conservative area so we have to sit tight and watch our area get considerably worse

 

[Bletchleyite]

We’re unlikely to notice a difference. They’ll slap some paint the same colour as the bodyside underneath over “Avanti” and we’ll be left with “West Coast”

View attachment 119355

Something like that (excuse the blurriness)
Is it confirmed that Avanti may go to the OLR, or is this Speculative? If so, you might want to consider asking the mods to move the thread

Avanti is a generic brand so there would be no need to rebrand it, though they may well choose to to distance themselves from the debacle once it is sorted out. It is a shame, though, that LNWR has already gone. Though you could perhaps, without being totally historically accurate, use LMS (with the M meaning both Manchester and Midlands), though sadly that wouldn't allow for the "N" flash of LNER to be used here too.

 

[WizCastro197]

I can't remember to be honest!


All bar one (GWR) of their 'franchised' TOCs are failing too.

SWR isn't too bad but then again I dont think it fits the accurate criteria as it has another shareholder but First is majority?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I can't remember to be honest!


All bar one (GWR) of their 'franchised' TOCs are failing too.

It’s really quite odd how Great Western Railway continues to perform well (apart from short forms) while the others continue to sink lower and lower.

TransPennine Express doesn’t seem to get as much negative coverage as SWR and Avanti West Coast, but it ought to. It seems more of their trains are cancelled than run these days.

 

[Agent_Squash]

TransPennine Express doesn’t seem to get as much negative coverage as SWR and Avanti West Coast, but it ought to. It seems more of their trains are cancelled than run these days.

TPE doesn't serve a London terminus. That's the main reason why.

 

[Backroom_boy]

The improvements in Northern were coming anyway but being cynical about it, the DfT could use the money saved in not having to pay the management fee for Avanti to put right some of the issues they have caused in the first place!

Pretty sure the management fee for OLR will be at least as much