Speed limiters on new build cars

[CBlue]

but most people will care about fuel economy because that equals money!

Surprisingly not. You only have to commute by car regularly at peak times to spot that a fair proportion of drivers have a rather "on/off" approach to throttle and brake operation with resultant poor fuel economy. Figures provided by car manufacturers are achievable but only with a fair bit of awareness on the road.

Driving in a very economical manner also requires a lot of planning ahead and reading the road, which certainly wasn't commonly taught when I learned to drive almost 15 years ago - although my instructor didn't just teach me to pass the test unlike others I'd come across.

 

[gg1]

Surprisingly not. You only have to commute by car regularly at peak times to spot that a fair proportion of drivers have a rather "on/off" approach to throttle and brake operation with resultant poor fuel economy. Figures provided by car manufacturers are achievable but only with a fair bit of awareness on the road.

Some drivers do but they're in the minority (admittedly a significant minority), miklcct's comment was that most drivers care about fuel econony which I completely agree with.

Driving in a very economical manner also requires a lot of planning ahead and reading the road, which certainly wasn't commonly taught when I learned to drive almost 15 years ago - although my instructor didn't just teach me to pass the test unlike others I'd come across.

I don't recall being taught that by my driving instructor when I learnt to drive in the early 90s either, not sure if the same's true today but I suspect it is.

Thankfully my dad drilled that in to me as teenage learner, along with defensive driving (aka assume everyone else on the road is an idiot).

 

[typefish]

hahaha! Didn't think of that!
But they did some years ago trial a 80mph speed limit in some outside lanes of motorways in Kent.

There has never been a trial of a 80mph speed limit in the UK, and addition there is no provision for speed limits per lane in UK legislation (let's ignore demarcated slip roads for a moment)

There were plans for a 80mph limit however these were shelved after a bonfire that was consequential to adverse weather conditions that ultimately resulted in some fatalities on the M5.

I suspect you may be getting confused with the previous tolerances that were in place in the UK, which suggested to police forces that a road user shouldn't be prosecuted for speeding if their speed was less than 10% + 5mph in excess of a speed limit, which would suggest that prosecutions would begin at 82mph instead of the current 79mph.

 

[philthetube]

And anyone taking advantage of this could be subject to a ban.

I think they should be introduced though my reasons are different to any other mentions on here. They would cause reductions in crime as capturing criminals would be much easier.

We discussed the pros and cons of this in your previous thread and I think we came to the view that the technology was nowhere near foolproof enough at the moment

Speed limiters in cars

Incidents like this make me wonder if speed restrictors in cars, h=to hold cars to sp0eed limits should be introduced. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ecml-level-crossing-incident-13-06-21.218643/ This would greatly reduce car crime and save lives on British roads. My instincts are...

www.railforums.co.uk

But this thread is about them being introduced, and if they are then that would be a consequence, reliable or not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There has never been a trial of a 80mph speed limit in the UK, and addition there is no provision for speed limits per lane in UK legislation (let's ignore demarcated slip roads for a moment)

I have seen it on a smart motorway. It was probably a (dangerous) bug, though. The lane was not a sliproad but was adjacent to one, so I suspect it may have been wrongly configured.

 

[87 027]

But this thread is about them being introduced, and if they are then that would be a consequence, reliable or not.

See this post in a different thread

Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

All new cars require that by law now as a prelude to enforcing speed limits! One would hope that they were capable of recognising a black number on a white background (or vice versa, for a smart motorway one) in a red circle, as against a bus number which has none of those features. If not...

www.railforums.co.uk

There is already an EU requirement for intelligent speed assistance to be fitted in new cars and in the same breath the legislation also requires that the facility must be capable of being deactivated by the driver!

 

[Lockwood]

Discussion at the start of this about emergency vehicles...
Some ARE limited, when not on the lights. Having done a routine transfer half way up the country at 58mph, with the very occasional 59... Not fun.
And some behave nicely when turning the lights off and will let you stay above the limiter until you drop below the trigger speed. Others will chuck an anchor out and pull you down to the trigger speed as quickly as possible. (I've found car manual limiters seem to have these two options as well if you turn them on when going above the trigger - either beeping and warning you the limiter can't do its thing yet, or going for maximum braking)

And to the poster who said about drivers seeing/hearing you when you're on lights and sirens? That's funny, I needed a laugh today!

 

[Trackman]

There has never been a trial of a 80mph speed limit in the UK, and addition there is no provision for speed limits per lane in UK legislation (let's ignore demarcated slip roads for a moment)

There was going to be a trial at 80mph in some outside lanes on motorways in Kent, I've just google it, I suppose it never went ahead.

 

[Irascible]

There are occasions when breaking the speed limit might save your life, ie, getting out of the way of an out of control vehicle, or a little more unlikely, a tidal surge or some other disaster. No thanks to hard limits - it's far more likely the car will report you for speeding at some point, i'd imagine.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are occasions when breaking the speed limit might save your life, ie, getting out of the way of an out of control vehicle, or a little more unlikely, a tidal surge or some other disaster. No thanks to hard limits - it's far more likely the car will report you for speeding at some point, i'd imagine.

Such scenarios are so rare and niche (unless you are a dangerous driver and so make poorly planned overtakes regularly, in which case just pack it in before you kill somebody) that the lives saved by having the limiter will be much greater than those saved by not.

 

[LOL The Irony]

that the lives saved by having the limiter will be much greater than those saved by not.

I don't get how you can come to this conclusion, when in 2019, 57% of road deaths were on rural roads, with only 6% taking place on motorways.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't get how you can come to this conclusion, when in 2019, 57% of road deaths were on rural roads, with only 6% taking place on motorways.

Because hardly any lives are saved by accelerating out of trouble when you know you can't so drive accordingly.

Anyway 6% of a large number is still large.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Because hardly any lives are saved by accelerating out of trouble when you know you can't so drive accordingly.

Anyway 6% of a large number is still large.

But a total of 94% are happening on roads where an 80mph limiter won't be of much, if any, help.

 

[Domh245]

But a total of 94% are happening on roads where an 80mph limiter won't be of much, if any, help.

That still means that there are 6% of accidents that could be prevented at effectively zero cost. I was interested so looked up the numbers (ras50003), and there are ~80-100 accidents per year on a motorway (not including motorway-esque 70mph dual carraigeway A-Roads) where exceeding the speed limit is identified as a contributory factor - why do you think it is ok to keep letting this happen despite a technical solution being readily achievable.

Sure there are other causes of accidents that are causing more accidents and injuries, but just because we can't solve those ones doesn't mean we shouldn't solve the ones that we can

 

[Bletchleyite]

But a total of 94% are happening on roads where an 80mph limiter won't be of much, if any, help.

You totally missed my point.

In 2020-2021 there were[1] 24530 killed or serious injury accidents on the UK roads. 6% of those is 1,472 (rounded). Still worth preventing, no? (Of course not all will be due to excessive speed, but some certainly will).

With regard to country lanes, I retain my view, expressed above, that single carriageways should be NSL 50 rather than 60, and "normal" duals 60. This would include country lanes unless signed down, and would considerably (remember energy is the square of speed) reduce the severity of such collisions if obeyed.

[1] https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...n-provisional-estimates-year-ending-june-2021

 

[Ken H]

With smart motorways who goes faster than 80 these days. Are the speed cameras working when there is no speed limit displayed? With so much motorway now 'smart' speeding on them is not like it was.
I see speeding in motorway roadworks more of a problem. But many of them have average speed cameras now.

 

[LOL The Irony]

In 2020-2021 there were[1] 24530 killed or serious injury accidents on the UK roads. 6% of those is 1,472 (rounded).

Why are you using the 2021 figures when I was using the 2019 figures?

With regard to country lanes, I retain my view, expressed above, that single carriageways should be NSL 50 rather than 60, and "normal" duals 60. This would include country lanes unless signed down, and would considerably (remember energy is the square of speed) reduce the severity of such collisions if obeyed.

That would solve more than any speed limiter would.

 

[Bald Rick]

With smart motorways who goes faster than 80 these days.

Plenty of people. And, of course, only a small percentage of motorways are ‘Smart’.

Are the speed cameras working when there is no speed limit displayed?

Yes.

 

[Ken H]

Plenty of people. And, of course, only a small percentage of motorways are ‘Smart’.

Most of the M1 and M6 are.
When regularly went from N Yorks to leicester there was a short bit at Barnsley, and the bit south of the M42 that werent. The rest was. Much of the M62 in Yorkshire is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why are you using the 2021 figures when I was using the 2019 figures?

Because that was what I got when I Googled the figures.

That would solve more than any speed limiter would.

As the two things are totally independent there is no reason not to do both.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Mar 2022 ==

Plenty of people. And, of course, only a small percentage of motorways are ‘Smart’.

Yes.

I seem to recall, but may be wrong, that there are two sets of cameras. The ones on the gantries are active only when a limit or red X is showing, and the picture they take includes a fibre optic view of what the signs show, so people aren't penalised for a faulty gantry. There is then a second set of cameras which can be seen to the left of the road which are permanently set to whatever margin above 70 it is they use.

Originally only the gantry ones existed and so 70 wasn't enforced.

 

[LOL The Irony]

As the two things are totally independent there is no reason not to do both.

We already went over why limiters won't work but I'll repeat what's been said already;
1. They're easily defeated by someone with the correct knowledge
2. They'll have to be set at a speed of at least 90mph anyways, to account for the limits in foreign countries

Lowering the limit on unsuitable roads from 60 to 50 and increasing the NCAP test speeds from 70kmh (43mph) to 80kmh (50mph) would have more of an effect on road deaths than limiters ever would.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We already went over why limiters won't work but I'll repeat what's been said already;
1. They're easily defeated by someone with the correct knowledge

Who would have committed a criminal offence. Penalties for defeating a limiter could be much higher than simple speeding.

2. They'll have to be set at a speed of at least 90mph anyways, to account for the limits in foreign countries

It appears to be only Poland which has a limit or recommended limit over 130km/h, so I would go with that. The EU is likely to pressure Poland and Germany to standardise on 130 anyway for environmental reasons.

There is no place for people doing over 90mph on any public road. If you want to do that book a track day, and provision could be made for temporarily disabling limiters for that purpose, which of course could be spot checked that they were re-enabled before leaving again at a hefty penalty for not doing.

Lowering the limit on unsuitable roads from 60 to 50 and increasing the NCAP test speeds from 70kmh (43mph) to 80kmh (50mph) would have more of an effect on road deaths than limiters ever would.

Do both.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Who would have committed a criminal offence. Penalties for defeating a limiter could be much higher than simple speeding.

Requires getting caught first.

It appears to be only Poland which has a limit or recommended limit over 130km/h, so I would go with that. The EU is likely to pressure Poland and Germany to standardise on 130 anyway for environmental reasons.

That still doesn't guarantee that they'll lower the limit. Also, the limiter is set at 112mph (like Japan, come to think of it) and therefore, will serve no purpose except for preventing cars from being out run the police in 40 RA* style.

There is no place for people doing over 90mph on any public road. If you want to do that book a track day, and provision could be made for temporarily disabling limiters for that purpose, which of course could be spot checked that they were re-enabled before leaving again at a hefty penalty for not doing.

The Nissan GT-R (at least in Japan) does this automatically using its GPS system. Once again, they'd have to catch you first though.

*40 RA was a Lotus Carlton that was stolen by a smash & grab gang and outran the WM police helicopter.

 

[Bald Rick]

I seem to recall, but may be wrong, that there are two sets of cameras. The ones on the gantries are active only when a limit or red X is showing, and the picture they take includes a fibre optic view of what the signs show, so people aren't penalised for a faulty gantry. There is then a second set of cameras which can be seen to the left of the road which are permanently set to whatever margin above 70 it is they use.

Originally only the gantry ones existed and so 70 wasn't enforced.

the overhead gantry cameras work at 70+ margin. Mrs BR has the (now expired) points to prove it.

the cameras to the left of the gantry - in the yellow rectangular box - work at all speeds; there is a second set of cameras about 100 metres in rear of the Speed camera to prove the speed limit shown. If you are nabbed you get a picture of the car going under the gantry with the speed limit (or not) displayed, and a separate picture of the car beyond the gantry. Mrs BR has the (still current) points to prove that Too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks, I sit corrected.

 

[Cloud Strife]

It's 140 km/h in Poland and possibly others.

In practice, the 140km/h limit is 160km/h in reality. There are quite a few roads where it's normal to do this kind of speed, for instance the A4 between Bolesławiec and the German border where there's never much traffic except on Friday/Sunday evenings in one direction. '

In terms of speed limiters - how exactly are they supposed to work when some countries have insanely complicated rules for the cancellation of a given speed limit? For instance, you need a PhD in road engineering to understand exactly when a speed limit is cancelled in PL, as some junctions (but not all) cancel an imposed lower limit.

 

[Cowley]

Reading through the events being discussed in this thread I’m starting to come to the conclusion myself that it’s time to introduce something to restrict vehicles from being able to be driven like that.

It’s obviously going to happen eventually isn’t it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Eventually yes, but thus far GPS isn't quite good enough yet.

Give it 10 years.

 

[Hans]

A comment of mine on the other thread was stated as not being a clever one, of course I disagree with that point of view otherwise I wouldn't have made it! I stand by by opinion that kneejerk reactions are never a good idea - smart motorways were, imo, a kneejerk reaction to not enough motorway capacity, we all know the consequences of that decision. An accident possibly caused by high speed straight away see the calls for speed limiters, that may or may not be the right course of action but decisions should not be made following a social media or main stream media sensational headlines or comments.

Seat belt laws were introduced and the majority of people abide by them, as I said on the other thread, if a person chooses not to wear a seatbelt and dies, what other option is there to stop people dying from not wearing a seatbelt, other than banning the people driving in the first place.

Life nowdays is becoming a whirlwind of people saying "something must be done" my view is sometime the correct decision is not doing anything. By all means ascertain whether there may be changes made which may help certain events happening again but unless the gain is considerable then instigating change is not always for the best.

The issue I have with mandating upper speed limits on cars is control is taken away from the individual. A mandatory upper limit of 70mph would soon become 50mph and so on. With technology will it then become due to "climate change" all cars will now be limited to 20mph and the technology is there to ensure they do.

People must take responsibility for their own actions, they must make their own risk assessments, there is a place for laws and restrictions, but there is also over interference in peoples lives which many government bodies are very reluctant to take away once it is implemented.

 

[Iskra]

We don’t need anymore nannying. Just enforce the current rules properly. And what if I want to take my roadcar onto a track? Or take it abroad where the speed limits are higher?

Japanese imports would suddenly become very popular if limiters were introduced…

*although that said, my current car is limited to 130mph, but that has never caused me any problems….