SWR being not very ‘south west’: your thoughts?

[dorsetdesiro]

Back on topic, franchise names are affected by history. There's no logical reason why the 'Great West' extends further west than the 'South West' but in railway terms it always has been.

Absolutely agree. Hence today's GWR is a homage to the old GWR which was famous for Brunel etc. Also the old GWR and L&SWR were competitors in their day, weren't they? Also they both couldn't be called SWR at the same time so it has be one name for one rival and another name for the other.

Modern examples would be London Midland (referring to LMS), LNR (referring to L&NWR) and LNER.

Today's SWR could have been called LSWR (or London Southwestern Railway (LSR) if Abellio run it like LNR) then this question may not have been raised as it would point strongly to its historical namesake rather than the specific region it would be serving.

Anyone remember that fake GWR style LSWR logo going round online just before SWR launched, it looked better as I really liked the idea of a dark red/burgundy version of GWR instead of the dreary blueish grey currently in use!

 

[Starmill]

The number of services that ran west of Exeter in the 00s was absolutely tiny. A handful per day. Compared with several hundred east of Exeter. I don't really understand how it makes any difference to anything.

Transport for Wales run many services that are entirely in England. Northern run frequently to Nottingham and Stoke-on-Trent, which aren't Northern places. TransPennine Express run many services which don't go near the Pennine Hills. Central trains ran lots of services that weren't in the centre of England. Silverlink wasn't a geographical name at all. It just really doesn't matter.

 

[Basil Jet]

I've always thought Thameslink would be a great name for c2c, or Crossrail... terrible name for a railway from Brighton to Cambridge, where the passengers from the north are highly unlikely to reach the Thames, and the passengers from the south will nearly all cross the Thames by a shorter distance than when they get the Southern to Victoria.

 

[VimFuego]

The service they run west of Bournemouth is ran as a 2nd rate service. They regularly compromise that part of the line.

Last time I travelled, they booted everyone off the train that wanted to get off at smaller stations and told us they were converting to a fast non-stop service to make up lost time.

They dumped at least 2 vulnerable people off the train with no thought or consideration.

We had to explain to an elderly lady what happened and had to phone her son and sort out a taxi for her. Nobody from SWR on hand to help.

I can only assume the reason they do this is to game the system when it comes to fines, ditching passengers at the cheaper end of the line to limit fines at the London end.

It's a shocking service, and I'm frankly done with trains in Dorset, you can't rely on them at all, even when the staff aren't on strike.

 

[contrex]

Alternatively the Southwestern division of the Southern Railway set up at grouping.

Roughly:
LSWR -> Southern Railway Western Section -> BR Southern Region South Western Division.
LBSCR - > Southern Railway Central Section -> BR Southern Region Central Division.
SECR -> Southern Railway Eastern Section -> BR Southern Region South Eastern Division.

 

[Master29]

South Western Railway, or South West Trains before it, may not serve the entire region of South West England - I feel the "proper" South West operator really would be GWR, or Wessex Trains before it, that it could be argued that GWR or Wessex Trains should be SWR and today's SWR merged with GTR Southern to form SR (Southern Railway) - if TOCs are to be re-assigned for geographical reasons.

However, as others have pointed out, SWR does make sense because:

- It's the SW part of the old Network South East & Southern Region
- Also historically refers to the L&SWR
- Most of its stations and network are in the SW of London Waterloo also most trains travel in SW direction of Waterloo
- It runs SW London commuter services
- Also refers to the South Western Main Line all the way to Weymouth
- Waterloo is the SW located terminus in Central London
- It serves four counties which are in the SW England region
- Its south western terminuses of Exeter & Weymouth are in the SW England region


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Slightly off topic here,

Agree about Great Northern - makes less sense than SWR, I reckon the Moorgate services should go to Thameslink and some King Cross commuter services should go to Thameslink too as 700s and 717s are used extensively as Thameslink branded 700s would rock up at KGX operating Great Northern services. Then Thameslink would become an exclusive Desiro City fleet operator.
The longer distance services to Cambridge etc should go to LNER or Greater Anglia.

The London and South western Railway also served Devon and Cornwall pre Marples carve up. I think it has largely been down to more recent route allocations rather than geographical.

 

[Joe Paxton]

The SWR name, as many posters have pointed out, has its roots in history.

In a way what the OP is objecting to is the London centric nature of the name. As others have pointed out, it's not the only example of London centricity when it comes to railway naming. However, stepping back from looking at things through the railway lens, it's a fair enough point to make.

I'm just trying to think of a decent alternative... the London, Surrey, Hampshire and Dorset Railway is a bit of a mouthful!

 

[Snow1964]

The London and South western Railway also served Devon and Cornwall pre Marples carve up. I think it has largely been down to more recent route allocations rather than geographical.

Yes the counties used to be listed in the stonework either side of the central arch at Waterloo (that part was rebuilt about 1913-20), don’t know if they are still visible since balcony was added and roadway closed

Historically the London and Southampton Railway changed its name to London & South Western so as not to upset the citizens of Portsmouth when it opened the branch from Bishopstoke (now Eastleigh) to Gosport, with other branches soon following

 

[swt_passenger]

I think to avoid confusion we should just use the 1/16 compass points. So obviously SWR’s area would become the London and South South West to West South West Railway, and the GWR would be the London and West South West to West North West. Southern would obviously have to become the London and South South East to South South West.

I should put my compass back in the cupboard now…

 

[Basil Jet]

They could call it the Solent Wessex Railway, and not even have to change the initials.

 

[Irascible]

I think to avoid confusion we should just use the 1/16 compass points. So obviously SWR’s area would become the London and South South West to West South West Railway, and the GWR would be the London and West South West to West North West. Southern would obviously have to become the London and South South East to South South West.

I should put my compass back in the cupboard now…

The L&WSWWNW is big enough to need divisions though, it'd probably be the SW div of the L&SWWNW, and the WSW division of the L&SSWWSW. That sounds like something a civil servant would actually like ( I can hear Sir Humphrey explaining it... )

--

The LSWR tried to combat the GWR in D&C but really they gave up trying to be the primary operator very early - the west-of-Exeter operation must have been an absolute nightmare to organise.

Absolutely agree. Hence today's GWR is a homage to the old GWR which was famous for Brunel etc. Also the old GWR and L&SWR were competitors in their day, weren't they? Also they both couldn't be called SWR at the same time so it has be one name for one rival and another name for the other.

The first Western region franchise was Great Western Trains, the Great Western name has survived the entire privatisation period ( South West trains almost managed it, but I guess didn't really try too hard ). Arguably some of the GW identity surivived the entirety of BR anyway... it was a very long running institution.

I wonder if anyone considered folding the WoE line operation into Wessex - it's a very standalone part of SWT/R.

 

[JonathanH]

I wonder if anyone considered folding the WoE line operation into Wessex - it's a very standalone part of SWT/R.

It was considered at one point. In a way, it would make more sense if Cardiff to Portsmouth terminated at Salisbury (and Bristol to Weymouth at Westbury) with South Western Railway having everything further south to itself.

Then, there could be two trains an hour from Bristol to Salisbury, Westbury to Weymouth could be a branch and SWR could plan an integrated timetable for Salisbury to Southampton and Southampton to Portsmouth.

 

[tbtc]

Just wait until some people on here find out which route the London Underground decided to call the “northern” line…

(Clue, it’s not the one that goes furthest north of the city centre, but it is the one that goes furthest south of the city centre)

I can appreciate some of the pedantry, but where do we draw the line?

If you’re Welsh, the fast route out of London Euston would be better called the North Coast Main Line (what with it serving the line from Holyhead to Prestatyn), but I’ve never seen anyone from Wales complain that the WCML and Avanti West Coast are cruel English names that fail to reflect the geography of the principality. Yet.

 

[RobShipway]

In the thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ns-into-other-tocs-areas.236380/#post-5822727 I do suggest the following maybe possible:

It maybe me, but I can see a time when perhaps the Portsmouth - Cardiff services are no longer operated by GWR throughout. It is perhaps a service that should be operated by SWR, to Romsey and GWR provide a service from Romsey to Cardiff?

 

[JonathanH]

In the thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ns-into-other-tocs-areas.236380/#post-5822727 I do suggest the following maybe possible:

It maybe me, but I can see a time when perhaps the Portsmouth - Cardiff services are no longer operated by GWR throughout. It is perhaps a service that should be operated by SWR, to Romsey and GWR provide a service from Romsey to Cardiff?

Westbury, Salisbury or Southampton would be more appropriate split points than Romsey, which wouldn't be suitable at all.

 

[Andyh82]

Maybe they should have called it London South Western Railway (LSWR)

 

[miklcct]

It was considered at one point. In a way, it would make more sense if Cardiff to Portsmouth terminated at Salisbury (and Bristol to Weymouth at Westbury) with South Western Railway having everything further south to itself.

Then, there could be two trains an hour from Bristol to Salisbury, Westbury to Weymouth could be a branch and SWR could plan an integrated timetable for Salisbury to Southampton and Southampton to Portsmouth.

I can't imagine breaking up the Southampton - Bristol route. It is an important corridor in SW England.

I think that the Salisbury - Romsey, and Southampton - Portsmouth services should be given to GWR to be operated in conjunction with the Portsmouth - Cardiff route, which overlaps with these two routes, making GWR the exclusive operator on the Wessex Main Line and reducing the number of operators between Fareham and Southampton from 3 to 2 (GWR and Southern), and SWR will receive Reading - Gatwick Airport in return as the service runs totally within the SWR-land except the end points.

 

[Irascible]

Maybe they should have called it London South Western Railway (LSWR)

Most of it isn't in the south-west! the original L&SWR was a case of wishful thinking & then well-sort-of.

Just to really annoy people with a historical fetish, call it the London, Southanpton & South Coast Railway.

Someone with a sense of humour in marketing needs to brand the Weymouth line the "Jurassic Line"

 

[Dai Corner]

Most of it isn't in the south-west! the original L&SWR was a case of wishful thinking & then well-sort-of.

Just to really annoy people with a historical fetish, call it the London, Southanpton & South Coast Railway.

Someone with a sense of humour in marketing needs to brand the Weymouth line the "Jurassic Line"

The original L&SWR certainly reached many parts of Devon and Cornwall, though BR closed most of their branches ('the withered arm').

The Poole-Axminster bus service is called the 'Jurassic Coaster'

BR (or at least the announcers at Bristol Temple Meads) used to call anywhere past Taunton the 'West of England'. Now, First West of England buses serve Bristol, Bath, Weston-super-Mare and Wells and First South West the rest of Somerset and Cornwall.

 

[Irascible]

BR (or at least the announcers at Bristol Temple Meads) used to call anywhere past Taunton the 'West of England'. Now, First West of England buses serve Bristol, Bath, Weston-super-Mare and Wells and First South West the rest of Somerset and Cornwall.

Yeah, it was much the same on the London-Plymouth services, although "West of England" covered everything west of Berkshire. There's definitely more idea of South-West down here now, which might be coincidental with Exeter getting more of an identity. Axminster/Lyme/Bridport area does have a bit of a frontier feel

 

[BluePenguin]

There is an awful lot of things wrong with SWR, but the name isn't one of them......

What might those things be?

 

[zwk500]

I can't imagine breaking up the Southampton - Bristol route. It is an important corridor in SW England.

Agreed

I think that the Salisbury - Romsey, and Southampton - Portsmouth services should be given to GWR to be operated in conjunction with the Portsmouth - Cardiff route, which overlaps with these two routes, making GWR the exclusive operator on the Wessex Main Line and reducing the number of operators between Fareham and Southampton from 3 to 2 (GWR and Southern), and SWR will receive Reading - Gatwick Airport in return as the service runs totally within the SWR-land except the end points.

So in one post you want to take a line wholly within SWR and give it to GWR because it'll improve operational reliability and take another line from GWR and give it to SWR purely to tidy up the map?

The Portsmouth-Southampton local services should stay with Electric units, either SWR or Southern. They stop so regularly you want to the acceleration. GWR taking over the line in isolation would probably incur lots of depot overheads. Better is to let SWR operate Southampton-Portsmouth all stations locals with Southern running connections to Brighton. GWR stopping short at Southampton is probably a reasonable compromise.
The North Downs Line is a diesel island in otherwise electrified territory, and it makes sense for GWR with a large diesel operation to keep that line as they're based at one end.

 

[Dai Corner]

Yeah, it was much the same on the London-Plymouth services, although "West of England" covered everything west of Berkshire. There's definitely more idea of South-West down here now, which might be coincidental with Exeter getting more of an identity. Axminster/Lyme/Bridport area does have a bit of a frontier feel

I know what you mean, my Mum lives in Bridport and both Exeter and Bournemouth/Poole seem equally remote, but the places to go to for shopping, major hospitals etc. Having trains run by what I think of as London commuter TOC but without the frequency seems strange too.

 

[Irascible]

I know what you mean, my Mum lives in Bridport and both Exeter and Bournemouth/Poole seem equally remote, but the places to go to for shopping, major hospitals etc. Having trains run by what I think of as London commuter TOC but without the frequency seems strange too.

West Dorset always felt pretty empty even by East Devon/West Somerset standards... Dorchester & Yeovil felt as remote as well, pretty much anywhere honestly Most of Devon ( barring possibly the south-east corner ) is as near in travel terms to Birmingham as London, so London-centric companies do feel a bit wierd ( nothing quite beats Network SouthEast though ). I wonder if the lines west of Bournemouth felt like a bit of an afterthought to the SR.

 

[JonathanH]

I wonder if the lines west of Bournemouth felt like a bit of an afterthought to the SR.

I dont really understand the point. The fact is that if there are only so many lines into London, the routes further out have to use the SR lines into London. What other way would it all be organised? A different railway company West of Southampton and no through running?

There were proposals a few years ago for a separate operator for Devon and Cornwall services, but it would have been organised with the London services also passing to that operator. Operationally, politically and financially, it just didn't make sense to split them off from the rest of GWR.

 

[BayPaul]

I've never understood why almost every TOC name has a compass point or similar in it. I think that more generic names, especially for complex areas would be better. Virgin Trains, Avanti (without the West Coast suffix), Horizon Trains and C2C all strike me as better.

 

[Irascible]

I dont really understand the point. The fact is that if there are only so many lines into London, the routes further out have to use the SR lines into London. What other way would it all be organised? A different railway company West of Southampton and no through running?

Bournemouth was definitely LSWR country - Weymouth was where the fight with the GWR began & past Exeter was where it was lost. There was no point, it was a muse / idle enquiry - germinated by the discussion about how standalone the route is today & it's comparison to the rest of SWR - for someone who knows their history, how important the WoE line was to the SR compared with the Solent area and the Bournemouth route. It is a little relevant given the disruption at the moment because it'd affect how much they invested in it.

 

[miklcct]

The Portsmouth-Southampton local services should stay with Electric units, either SWR or Southern. They stop so regularly you want to the acceleration. GWR taking over the line in isolation would probably incur lots of depot overheads. Better is to let SWR operate Southampton-Portsmouth all stations locals with Southern running connections to Brighton. GWR stopping short at Southampton is probably a reasonable compromise.
The North Downs Line is a diesel island in otherwise electrified territory, and it makes sense for GWR with a large diesel operation to keep that line as they're based at one end.

You are arguing that the choice of TOC on a route should be decided if the route is diesel / electric, right? So because Portsmouth - Southampton is 3rd rail electrified it should stay with Southern / SWR, and North Downs is diesel-hauled so it should stay with GWR?!

Using the same argument the Waterloo - Exeter, and Salisbury - Southampton service should be given to GWR as well to make SWR fully electrified!

There were proposals a few years ago for a separate operator for Devon and Cornwall services, but it would have been organised with the London services also passing to that operator. Operationally, politically and financially, it just didn't make sense to split them off from the rest of GWR.

I think a better choice will be a separate operator for all non-London-mainline services in the South West, including Devon & Cornwall services, Dorset & Somerset services, etc. i.e. Wessex Trains.

I've never understood why almost every TOC name has a compass point or similar in it. I think that more generic names, especially for complex areas would be better. Virgin Trains, Avanti (without the West Coast suffix), Horizon Trains and C2C all strike me as better.

Using geographic names make the name instantly recognisable no matter which company operates the franchise. Under the newest instructions TOCs are no longer allowed to have their brand names in their trading name, for example, First Great Western has become Great Western Railway, Arriva CrossCountry has become simply CrossCountry, etc.

As long as the words "South West" remain, it doesn't matter which company operates the franchise at all and passengers won't be confused like the past when Virgin Trains became Avanti West Coast. It would be confusing if one holding a "Virgin Trains Only" ticket when the company became Avanti West Coast, but not when South West Trains became South Western Railway.

 

[zwk500]

You are arguing that the choice of TOC on a route should be decided if the route is diesel / electric, right? So because Portsmouth - Southampton is 3rd rail electrified it should stay with Southern / SWR, and North Downs is diesel-hauled so it should stay with GWR?!

Using the same argument the Waterloo - Exeter, and Salisbury - Southampton service should be given to GWR as well to make SWR fully electrified!

Nope, I'm suggesting that operational practicalities are considered above map-tidying. If GWR took over Southampton-Portsmouth, which depot and trains would they use? Do SWR have a diesel depot with drivers capable of covering the North Downs Line?

I think a better choice will be a separate operator for all non-London-mainline services in the South West, including Devon & Cornwall services, Dorset & Somerset services, etc. i.e. Wessex Trains.

Why is splitting up operations further better for the passenger?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I've never understood why almost every TOC name has a compass point or similar in it. I think that more generic names, especially for complex areas would be better. Virgin Trains, Avanti (without the West Coast suffix), Horizon Trains and C2C all strike me as better.

I'm the exact opposite. I can't abide the corporate nonsense that "branding consultants" come up with. If you have to have a paragraph on your website and in your launch materials explaining what your name means, it's a crap name.