Headingley - Harrogate Day Return

[parkender102]

My son starts a new job in Harrogate this week and is confused regarding train fares (as I am too!).

He lives in Headingley and will take the train direct Northern Service 08:08 arriving Harrogate 08:35. Probably returning Northern Service 17:16 arriving Headingley 17:42. He has a 16-25 Railcard and the price on the National Rail Website is £10.40 Anytime Return (No Advance or other fares available at the times he's travelling).

However the Advance Single Leeds - Harrogate and Harrogate - Leeds each way purchased today with Railcard is only £3.30 each way! Is it OK to use this ticket boarding and returning to Headingley? It's exactly the same train and calling points and I can't fathom why there is such a difference in price considering Leeds - Harrogate is a longer journey? Also why no Advance Fares available from Headingley?

 

[realemil]

He has a 16-25 Railcard and the price on the National Rail Website is £10.40 Anytime

The price will be £12 due to minimum price requirement prior to 10:30.

Is it OK to use this ticket boarding and returning to Headingley?

While it’s not allowed on advance tickets, most people wouldn’t mind. However, I’d be careful in case of revenue protection inspecting the train and whatnot. Not sure it’s a risk I’d take honestly. But I’m not too experienced with this line, so I wouldn’t be able to tell you.

 

[ainsworth74]

The price will be £12 due to minimum price requirement prior to 10:30.

Apart from July/August when the restriction is lifted of course

My son starts a new job in Harrogate this week and is confused regarding train fares (as I am too!).

How many days per week is he working in Harrogate? A season ticket might make sense. For instance a Seven Day Season costs £43.50 so if he's going to go to Harrogate five days in one week this will be cheaper. Actually a seven day season between Leeds and Harrogate is £45.50 so if he's likely to go to Leeds by train on a the weekend it might be worth getting it between Leeds and Harrogate. A season ticket is valid for unlimited journeys between the two stations so no concern with getting on or off at station other than those named on the ticket (or doing multiple journeys in various combinations in one day, say Headingly to Harrogate, Harrogate to Horsforth, Horsforth to Leeds and then Leeds to Headingly in one day would be perfectly fine). Longer versions are available as well of course up to an annual (£1,820 for Leeds - Harrogate or £1,740 for Headingly - Harrogate, again probably worth getting to the Leeds version if there ever likely to get the train to Leeds!).

Obviously if it's only one or two per week then seasons wouldn't make sense!

 

[Watershed]

However the Advance Single Leeds - Harrogate and Harrogate - Leeds each way purchased today with Railcard is only £3.30 each way! Is it OK to use this ticket boarding and returning to Headingley?

Advance tickets don't permit break of journey. That means you're not allowed to use a Leeds-Harrogate ticket starting at Headingley.

In theory the penalty for starting late on an Advance is simply to have to pay the difference ("excess") to the cheapest valid fare that permits break of journey, i.e. an Anytime/Off-Peak Day Single. However, it's worth noting that failing to (proactively) pay this excess means you are failing to pay the correct fare for your journey. And if you have intent to avoid payment of this excess then you are committing an offence under section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

Whilst previously Northern has given standing permission for people to use Advance tickets in this way, it's unclear whether this is still their policy. We have also heard of some cases where Northern have demanded that passengers repay the difference going back some months. With e-tickets, it's very easy to see where (and whether) these have been scanned; whilst you might be able to explain away an absence of scans at the Leeds barriers if it happened once in a while, if you never scanned your ticket then it could arouse suspicions.

So before doing this, your son should absolutely contact Northern to see if they will give permission for him to use an Advance from Leeds, starting at Headingley. And if not, he would be well advised to consider his options and the potential consequences of them...

It's exactly the same train and calling points and I can't fathom why there is such a difference in price considering Leeds - Harrogate is a longer journey? Also why no Advance Fares available from Headingley?

The reason is because Northern have only specifically set Advances from Leeds. Perhaps correctly, they are assuming that there is a bigger market from Leeds than from Headingley, and that those travelling from Leeds likely have a greater choice of alternatives. From Headingley, the train makes a lot more sense and so you are, in a sense, a 'captive market' for whom they can charge a higher price (or rather, not offer the discount of an Advance).

The price will be £12 due to minimum price requirement prior to 10:30.

£10.40 is the undiscounted Anytime fare. The Railcard is (correctly) disregarded, as the fare would be less than £12 for travel before 10am, which is less than the minimum fare for a 16-25 Railcard. It's worth noting that the minimum fare doesn't apply to Advance tickets, or during the months of July and August.

 

[_toommm_]

Whilst previously Northern has given standing permission for people to use Advance tickets in this way, it's unclear whether this is still their policy. We have also heard of some cases where Northern have demanded that passengers repay the difference going back some months. With e-tickets, it's very easy to see where (and whether) these have been scanned; whilst you might be able to explain away an absence of scans at the Leeds barriers if it happened once in a while, if you never scanned your ticket then it could arouse suspicions.

Northern seem to be cracking down on it, as on their screens on the newer/refurb trains, there’s messaging about advances needing to be used between the start and end stations, and starting short/finishing early being explicitly banned.

To the OP, having that as my local line, and indeed Headingley station as my local station, for nearly three years, the chance of a ticket inspection between Leeds and Headingley is very small.

 

[skyhigh]

Northern seem to be cracking down on it, as on their screens on the newer/refurb trains, there’s messaging about advances needing to be used between the start and end stations, and starting short/finishing early being explicitly banned.

Yes, particularly on trains originating from Leeds if the ticket is not marked as scanned by the barriers RPIs are told to pick up on it.

To the OP, having that as my local line, and indeed Headingley station as my local station, for nearly three years, the chance of a ticket inspection between Leeds and Headingley is very small.

It very much depends on time of day. There are now RPIs based at Harrogate who almost exclusively work the Harrogate line. You may not get checked between Leeds and Headingley, but there's plenty of time for you to have your ticket checked between Headingley and Harrogate, and as I mentioned above RPIs (and guards) are now told to look at scan history for tickets starting from Leeds. Of course, there are also fairly regular spot deployments of RPIs at Headingley (particularly around September) who would likely report a passenger who alighted there with an Advance from Harrogate to Leeds.

Whilst previously Northern has given standing permission for people to use Advance tickets in this way, it's unclear whether this is still their policy.

It is not.

 

[_toommm_]

It very much depends on time of day. There are now RPIs based at Harrogate who almost exclusively work the Harrogate line. You may not get checked between Leeds and Headingley, but there's plenty of time for you to have your ticket checked between Headingley and Harrogate, and as I mentioned above RPIs (and guards) are now told to look at scan history for tickets starting from Leeds. Of course, there are also fairly regular spot deployments of RPIs at Headingley (particularly around September) who would likely report a passenger who alighted there with an Advance from Harrogate to Leeds.

In light of the RPIs now at Harrogate, I’d probably draw the same conclusion that I imagine you’re drawing that it wouldn’t be worth it to the OP’s son.

 

[Kite159]

If you want to try and save money by buying advances from Leeds, then it will be far safer to get them as paper tickets. At least they won't have a scan history which RPIs can pick up on, although it will still be a very grey area regarding starting short/finishing early on advance tickets (and I for one won't want to run into a revenue block at Headingley trying to exit with an advance to Leeds, or board with an advance from Leeds)

As for the availability of advance fares for Leeds - Harrogate and none for the shorter Headingley - Harrogate flow, I suspect it is part of the old ORCAT scheme as Northern could keep 100% of an advance fare rather than a percentage of a flexible Leeds - Harrogate ticket sharing it with LNER who increased the number of services they ran from a token daily service.

 

[IanXC]

Apart from July/August when the restriction is lifted of course


How many days per week is he working in Harrogate? A season ticket might make sense. For instance a Seven Day Season costs £43.50 so if he's going to go to Harrogate five days in one week this will be cheaper. Actually a seven day season between Leeds and Harrogate is £45.50 so if he's likely to go to Leeds by train on a the weekend it might be worth getting it between Leeds and Harrogate. A season ticket is valid for unlimited journeys between the two stations so no concern with getting on or off at station other than those named on the ticket (or doing multiple journeys in various combinations in one day, say Headingly to Harrogate, Harrogate to Horsforth, Horsforth to Leeds and then Leeds to Headingly in one day would be perfectly fine). Longer versions are available as well of course up to an annual (£1,820 for Leeds - Harrogate or £1,740 for Headingly - Harrogate, again probably worth getting to the Leeds version if there ever likely to get the train to Leeds!).

Obviously if it's only one or two per week then seasons wouldn't make sense!

There are also Flexi Seasons (if everyday for seven days isn't worth it) for Headingley to Harrogate, £76.40 for 8 days in 28 - once activated the ticket is valid for unlimited journeys between the two stations.

 

[wellhouse]

Starting Short - Advanced (Northern)

Good Morning, I had an issue with my train journey yesterday and was wondering what will likely be the outcome. After being told by a ticket inspector earlier this year that it would be cheaper for me to get a ticket from Leeds to York and het on at Micklefield, I have recently been doing...

railforums.co.uk

This thread indicates that while Northern may once have accepted starting short on Advance tickets from Leeds, they are now most certainly taking action against passengers who do so.