December 2022 Timetable Changes

[70014IronDuke]

All this SE Division stuff is doing my head in (as I have never mastered the maze of routes).

But I have, perhaps, noticed a change to the morning Norwich - Cromer -Sheringham service which may not have been mentioned upthread, and will, presumably be welcomed by those living in such outer outposts of the realm.

It would appear that the weekday ECS 5S01, which provides the stock for the first Cromer - Norwich service (2S01), is to become a limited stop passenger 2S04 to Sheringham.

En route it would appear to split at Cromer, to provide the stock for 2S01 (as in current TT) and to continue to Cromer to form the 06.18 to Norwich (2S03), which will dep Sheringham at 06.18, 13 minutes earlier than currently.

But if I've read the TT correctly, this only allows 1 min at Cromer to uncouple the units and change ends, as 2S04 is only due into Cromer at 05.50 - which seems pretty unrealistic.

Perhaps others know more about this?

 

[dk1]

All this SE Division stuff is doing my head in (as I have never mastered the maze of routes).

But I have, perhaps, noticed a change to the morning Norwich - Cromer -Sheringham service which may not have been mentioned upthread, and will, presumably be welcomed by those living in such outer outposts of the realm.

It would appear that the weekday ECS 5S01, which provides the stock for the first Cromer - Norwich service (2S01), is to become a limited stop passenger 2S04 to Sheringham.

En route it would appear to split at Cromer, to provide the stock for 2S01 (as in current TT) and to continue to Cromer to form the 06.18 to Norwich (2S03), which will dep Sheringham at 06.18, 13 minutes earlier than currently.

But if I've read the TT correctly, this only allows 1 min at Cromer to uncouple the units and change ends, as 2S04 is only due into Cromer at 05.50 - which seems pretty unrealistic.

Perhaps others know more about this?

2S03 now provides a connection into the 07:26 Norwich-Liverpool St (runs into London in the path of the old 07:40 East Anglian) rather than wait for the 08:03.

I would imagine 2S01 is formed by the 04:57 ECS from Norwich followed closely by the first passenger train as now. Only 2x3-car 755s can be accommodated at Cromer which could prove problematic to diagram. As both trains need a crew there’s no point in this really.

 

[70014IronDuke]

2S03 now provides a connection into the 07:26 Norwich-Liverpool St (runs into London in the path of the old 07:40 East Anglian) rather than wait for the 08:03.

I would imagine 2S01 is formed by the 04:57 ECS from Norwich followed closely by the first passenger train as now. Only 2x3-car 755s can be accommodated at Cromer which could prove problematic to diagram. As both trains need a crew there’s no point in this really.

Ah. Thanks for explanation. As is patently obvious by now, it's not a route I know (or indeed, have ever been on).

 

[cle]

Bank isn’t Charing Cross though, and not everyone wants to switch to a cramped tube either

Nope but still have more options than most routes do, so they can suck it up!

 

[NorthKent1989]

Nope but still have more options than most routes do, so they can suck it up!

I don’t think anyone should “suck anything up” if they feel they’re going to have a worse traveling experience to be quite frank

 

[cle]

Unlike many others they will still have two terminus stations with a ton of onward options by foot and tube/bus/anything (LB and Cannon St) - and as I mentioned, New Cross gives them the ELL and Lewisham the DLR. Far more options than many radial routes - for example, if you lived on the line out of Marylebone. Plenty there to moot any grumbles.

Move with the times - much as employment patterns (and thus transport devts) - and the nexus of London has shifted/stretched in their favour too.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Unlike many others they will still have two terminus stations with a ton of onward options by foot and tube/bus/anything (LB and Cannon St) - and as I mentioned, New Cross gives them the ELL and Lewisham the DLR. Far more options than many radial routes - for example, if you lived on the line out of Marylebone. Plenty there to moot any grumbles.

Move with the times - much as employment patterns (and thus transport devts) - and the nexus of London has shifted/stretched in their favour too.

This change is about performance. I would not describe it as moving with the times.

 

[brad465]

Unlike many others they will still have two terminus stations with a ton of onward options by foot and tube/bus/anything (LB and Cannon St) - and as I mentioned, New Cross gives them the ELL and Lewisham the DLR. Far more options than many radial routes - for example, if you lived on the line out of Marylebone. Plenty there to moot any grumbles.

Move with the times - much as employment patterns (and thus transport devts) - and the nexus of London has shifted/stretched in their favour too.

I'm so sorry but this can be debunked for most places: the Metropolitan line exists as an alternative for a large area, to the point they're literally sharing tracks with the Chiltern route, with the Met going through to the City of London and providing easy interchange with other LUL lines in places. On the mainline, Ruislip residents have the Central and Piccadilly lines in the area; High Wycombe residents could in theory opt for Bourne End and go into Paddington (although Marylebone would be easier here arguably), or change at Maidenhead and Reading to go further West, avoiding London fares and hassle; Oxford has GWR vs Chiltern, as does Banbury, sometimes direct, sometimes involving XC and 1 change. Then of course the Birmingham end has alternative routes for Euston. Yes there are some locations that don't really have any other choice besides Marylebone, but more than you appear to be implying.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Unlike many others they will still have two terminus stations with a ton of onward options by foot and tube/bus/anything (LB and Cannon St) - and as I mentioned, New Cross gives them the ELL and Lewisham the DLR. Far more options than many radial routes - for example, if you lived on the line out of Marylebone. Plenty there to moot any grumbles.

Move with the times - much as employment patterns (and thus transport devts) - and the nexus of London has shifted/stretched in their favour too.

Sorry what? The Aylesbury line is paralleled by the Metropolitan line for a large stretch of its route which technically gives that corridor Marylebone, Baker Street and Aldgate as options.

Harrow on the Hill isn’t far from Harrow and Wealdstone therefore giving Harrow a choice between Euston-Fasts/Bakerloo/Overground or Chiltern/Metropolitan, there’s very few areas in London these days that are that remote or have few options.

In fact ironically the South East London/North Kent areas were the last areas that were largely unconnected until the 1990s/2000s, where until then, outside of Zone 1 the only tube connection in those days was New Cross for the ELL.

Furthermore the West End is still the centre of things, that hasn’t changed.

 

[Starmill]

One small but meaningful change, the Fridays Only 1849 London Euston to Crewe via Northampton is retimed to match the Monday - Thursday service, departing London 3 minutes earlier, no longer calling at Northampton, and arriving at stations from Rugby to Crewe approximately 20 minutes earlier. The Avanti West Coast Fridays only 1846 London Euston to Preston (previously Blackpool North) is withdrawn.

The change means that on Fridays only passengers for Northampton will arrive 8 minutes later at 1949 and those for Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western and Preston will need to depart London with the 1830 or 1930.

 

[danorak]

For Southeastern passengers, changing to the Tube attracts an additional fare.

The 'suck it up' attitude on this thread on this thread is a little odd. It's as if passengers are getting in the way of running the railway. Charing Cross is the preferred off-peak destination for North Kent passengers: take a look at any train at London Bridge. I've had some surprisingly long off peak waits at London Bridge for a Charing X connection.

 

[cle]

This change is about performance. I would not describe it as moving with the times.

I was referring to the predicted reaction, vs the motivation by the railway to make said changes.

As for the rest, Marylebone was but one example and yes the Met line is present. But that isn't its mainline by any stretch. Nobody from High Wycombe would go to Bourne End for London (with another change) - although I'd be curious to know if Crossrail makes this more compelling.

My overall argument is lessened of late, with Thameslink giving previously single terminus routes more choice, and so many of the same East London developments ensuring that Stratford and West Ham (and Limehouse) all provide more dispersal options. And one off places like Tottenham Hale play this role more and more.

The SE region always had three London stations to choose from on a Charing Cross anyway. And London Bridge is much more of a destination than it ever was. Everything stops there now too. I don't think we need to compare anything to the 90s, irrelevant. Today matters, and connectivity in that 'region' has never been better, regardless of terminus.

What I do think, is that if folks are only getting Cannon St, it should be way more metro to compensate. Grumbles over 2tph an hour will dissipate over time if they have a proper metro service and can ditch timetable living. Cannon St should only run metro services, and arguably only looper services. 12tph to Greenwich, 6tph back/out via Bexleyheath, 6tph back/out via Sidcup. Those latter two lines would also have CX/Victoria services which go to Dartford and beyond. 24tph is a shade over capacity, but that uniform simplicity should enable 1tph more.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I was referring to the predicted reaction, vs the motivation by the railway to make said changes.

As for the rest, Marylebone was but one example and yes the Met line is present. But that isn't its mainline by any stretch. Nobody from High Wycombe would go to Bourne End for London (with another change) - although I'd be curious to know if Crossrail makes this more compelling.

My overall argument is lessened of late, with Thameslink giving previously single terminus routes more choice, and so many of the same East London developments ensuring that Stratford and West Ham (and Limehouse) all provide more dispersal options. And one off places like Tottenham Hale play this role more and more.

The SE region always had three London stations to choose from on a Charing Cross anyway. And London Bridge is much more of a destination than it ever was. Everything stops there now too. I don't think we need to compare anything to the 90s, irrelevant. Today matters, and connectivity in that 'region' has never been better, regardless of terminus.

What I do think, is that if folks are only getting Cannon St, it should be way more metro to compensate. Grumbles over 2tph an hour will dissipate over time if they have a proper metro service and can ditch timetable living. Cannon St should only run metro services, and arguably only looper services. 12tph to Greenwich, 6tph back/out via Bexleyheath, 6tph back/out via Sidcup. Those latter two lines would also have CX/Victoria services which go to Dartford and beyond. 24tph is a shade over capacity, but that uniform simplicity should enable 1tph more.

There is no capacity for the amount of trains you are describing. Nowhere near.

Also no money to run any of those services. There is barely enough to run the dec22 timetable.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

There is no capacity for the amount of trains you are describing. Nowhere near.

Also no money to run any of those services. There is barely enough to run the dec22 timetable.

Indeed there seems a complete over estimation by enthusiasts and rail fans how much (or little money) is available and how much these services costs to
Operate.

In London and the South East the Revenue from a AM peak service full of season ticket holders paid for the crew and mileage effectively for half a day with the other half of the day paid for by the PM peak working which basically got your off peak frequency for free (something Chris Green was very keen of when he was at NSE).

Things are very different now without those peak flows and the cost of energy crisis doesn’t avoid the railways so for the 2023 financial year if the budget stays the same the railways will have to run less trains operating costs will be massively up.

 

[NorthKent1989]

What I do think, is that if folks are only getting Cannon St, it should be way more metro to compensate. Grumbles over 2tph an hour will dissipate over time if they have a proper metro service and can ditch timetable living. Cannon St should only run metro services, and arguably only looper services. 12tph to Greenwich, 6tph back/out via Bexleyheath, 6tph back/out via Sidcup. Those latter two lines would also have CX/Victoria What I do think, is that if folks are only getting Cannon St, it should be way more metro to compensate. Grumbles over 2tph an hour will dissipate over time if they have a proper metro service and can ditch timetable living. Cannon St should only run metro services, and arguably only looper services. 12tph to Greenwich, 6tph back/out via Bexleyheath, 6tph back/out via Sidcup. Those latter two lines would also have CX/Victoria services which go to Dartford and beyond. 24tph is a shade over capacity, but that uniform simplicity should enable 1tph more.

So how would Medway and Gravesend get to the connections with the Elizabeth line and DLR on the Woolwich line if everything from there is routed via Bexleyheath and Sidcup? you keep mentioning the great connections that line has as a justification to axe the highly popular Charing Cross trains, what benefits does separating Medway and Gravesend from such connections bring? Medway and Gravesend want more connections to the Liz line not to Sidcup or Bexleyheath, Also 12tph will never happen on any of those routes, it’s not the tube.

For Southeastern passengers, changing to the Tube attracts an additional fare.

The 'suck it up' attitude on this thread on this thread is a little odd. It's as if passengers are getting in the way of running the railway. Charing Cross is the preferred off-peak destination for North Kent passengers: take a look at any train at London Bridge. I've had some surprisingly long off peak waits at London Bridge for a Charing X connection.

Also worth looking at any Charing Cross train compared to a Cannon Street or Thameslink train off peak, they’re still busy, very few passengers getting off a CX train to change for a CS train at London Bridge, but CS trains in the other hand have passengers in their droves changing for CX trains, on Saturdays the CX trains are especially busy.

London Bridge isn’t so much a destination in its own right as it is a interchange point, it’s basically Clapham Junction of South East London.

 

[JammyJames08]

I think i'm right in saying that all conflicting moves at Lewisham have gone save for Victoria Dartford Service and some peak Charing Cross Services on the Bexleyheath line?

The crossing moves at Lewisham will be reduced from 24 per hour down to just 8 during the off peak.

The two Victoria-Dartfords every half an hour in each direction makes 4 and I’m assuming the two Dartford to Charing Cross via Woolwich every half an hour in each direction makes up the other 4.

I wouldn’t have thought the north Kent line would lose their Charing Cross trains as then there would be no trains between Blackheath and Charlton at all all day!

 

[A S Leib]

So how would Medway and Gravesend get to the connections with the Elizabeth line and DLR on the Woolwich line if everything from there is routed via Bexleyheath and Sidcup?

The Thameslink Luton - Rainhams?

 

[jnjkerbin]

London Bridge isn’t so much a destination in its own right as it is a interchange point, it’s basically Clapham Junction of South East London.

I'm sorry, but to call London Bridge 'the Clapham Junction of South East London' is ludicrous. In 2019-20 LBG has 10.6m interchanges and 63.1m entries and exits. CLJ has 26.9m interchanges and 28.9m entries and exits. Allowing for the fact that some of LBG's entries and exits will be people interchanging to the tube, that's still a massive difference. Around London Bridge you have the Shard, Borough Market, More London, Tower Bridge, Guy's Hospital etc. not to mention a decent smattering of offices. At Clapham Junction you have a local high street and that's about it - nothing of any interest to anyone not from the immediate area.

 

[carriageline]

The crossing moves at Lewisham will be reduced from 24 per hour down to just 8 during the off peak.

The two Victoria-Dartfords every half an hour in each direction makes 4 and I’m assuming the two Dartford to Charing Cross via Woolwich every half an hour in each direction makes up the other 4.

I wouldn’t have thought the north Kent line would lose their Charing Cross trains as then there would be no trains between Blackheath and Charlton at all all day!

I have a concern you may be wrong! The via Woolwich trains are in for the peak, but not the off peak…

I have notice the 1/2H** to Chrx have disappeared, at least off peak. Looks like they are in for the peaks again.

 

[Timmyd]

I find some of the discussions on here extraordinary - from people who supposedly care about the railway, the dismissive approach towards passengers, the people the railway needs, is inexplicable. Take the Penge West and Anerley situation. These stations have had direct trains to central London since Victorian times. Now they have been arbitrarily withdrawn with no proper notice on the back of yet another desperate Southern timetable change, and instead - as Southern has shown - its quite happy to dump passengers anywhere the Overground runs knowing TFL will pick up the slack. No matter that being able to get a train to Surrey Quays or Hoxton is no replacement for being able to go to London Bridge. At the same time, important school and college links to East Croydon and beyond are broken (one big school flow is to South Croydon which now needs two changes), and anyone going to Gatwick or Brighton will probably think twice. It’s the thin end of the wedge and people who care about the railway should call it out as such.

 

[JonathanH]

It’s the thin end of the wedge and people who care about the railway should call it out as such.

People who care about the railway equally realise that there isn't the same amount of income coming in that there used to be and that running an efficient railway is in everyone's interest else the cuts will be even more severe.

I'd say that posts 1,123 and 1,124 above show both care and concern for the railway but are realistic in what is affordable.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I'm sorry, but to call London Bridge 'the Clapham Junction of South East London' is ludicrous. In 2019-20 LBG has 10.6m interchanges and 63.1m entries and exits. CLJ has 26.9m interchanges and 28.9m entries and exits. Allowing for the fact that some of LBG's entries and exits will be people interchanging to the tube, that's still a massive difference. Around London Bridge you have the Shard, Borough Market, More London, Tower Bridge, Guy's Hospital etc. not to mention a decent smattering of offices. At Clapham Junction you have a local high street and that's about it - nothing of any interest to anyone not from the immediate area.

I’m talking about the lines that run through there, it’s similar to Clapham Junction as a station, only it has terminal bays but you can’t deny that London Bridge and Clapham Junction are both large stations where several lines converge.

 

[Timmyd]

People who care about the railway equally realise that there isn't the same amount of income coming in that there used to be and that running an efficient railway is in everyone's interest else the cuts will be even more severe.

I'd say that posts 1,123 and 1,124 above show both care and concern for the railway but are realistic in what is affordable.

So should that mean withdrawing direct services to the centre of the nearest major city with no notice or consultation?

 

[NorthKent1989]

I find some of the discussions on here extraordinary - from people who supposedly care about the railway, the dismissive approach towards passengers, the people the railway needs, is inexplicable. Take the Penge West and Anerley situation. These stations have had direct trains to central London since Victorian times. Now they have been arbitrarily withdrawn with no proper notice on the back of yet another desperate Southern timetable change, and instead - as Southern has shown - its quite happy to dump passengers anywhere the Overground runs knowing TFL will pick up the slack. No matter that being able to get a train to Surrey Quays or Hoxton is no replacement for being able to go to London Bridge. At the same time, important school and college links to East Croydon and beyond are broken (one big school flow is to South Croydon which now needs two changes), and anyone going to Gatwick or Brighton will probably think twice. It’s the thin end of the wedge and people who care about the railway should call it out as such.

Agreed.

This attitude of “just get on the Liz Line/DLR/change at Cannon Street” attitude is infuriating, none are Charing Cross, one of the benefits of the 2018 as it gave some stations along the Woolwich corridor a direct service to Waterloo East & Charing Cross for the first time in years not to mention links to Lewisham which some stations like Erith & Belvedere hadn’t had in decades by that that point.

Don’t get me started on the appalling Anerley/Penge West situation, which again the solution for them is to suck it up and change at Canada Water or Whitechapel, changing at Sydenham isn’t really an option as Southern only run every half hour now and will increase journey times.

Then there’s the Bromley South metro lines reverting to a half hourly service, along routes which has an increased use of passengers, to the point in the peaks they had to load spread services so some Orpington-Victoria’s in the AM peaks skipped Penge East & Sydenham Hill, while a Sheerness service would stop at those stations.

The crossing moves at Lewisham will be reduced from 24 per hour down to just 8 during the off peak.

The two Victoria-Dartfords every half an hour in each direction makes 4 and I’m assuming the two Dartford to Charing Cross via Woolwich every half an hour in each direction makes up the other 4.

I wouldn’t have thought the north Kent line would lose their Charing Cross trains as then there would be no trains between Blackheath and Charlton at all all day!

There’s been talk of a Cannon Street to Gravesend via Blackheath and Woolwich off peak

 

[Peregrine 4903]

The crossing moves at Lewisham will be reduced from 24 per hour down to just 8 during the off peak.

The two Victoria-Dartfords every half an hour in each direction makes 4 and I’m assuming the two Dartford to Charing Cross via Woolwich every half an hour in each direction makes up the other 4.

I wouldn’t have thought the north Kent line would lose their Charing Cross trains as then there would be no trains between Blackheath and Charlton at all all day!

There are no Dartford to Charing Cross via Woolwich! There is another service that will cover Blackheath to Charlton.

 

[JammyJames08]

There are no Dartford to Charing Cross via Woolwich! There is another service that will cover Blackheath to Charlton.

Whatever service that is. It isn’t on RTT yet.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Angerstein Jn all day on 13/12/2022

Train information at Angerstein Jn all day on 13/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[miklcct]

I did post in the main Thameslink or London Bridge thread a long time ago that the Sutton loop trains ideally could run Kentish Town - Blackfriars - Mitcham Junction - Sutton (Surrey) - Wimbledon - Blackfriars bay platforms with the frequency doubled to every 15 minutes as to compensate for the curtailment of the route.

Also, by having fixed termini points at both ends, it would be easier to recover the service from any major disruption if there are issues in the Thameslink core.

What will compensate the lost frequency north of Kentish Town? The Luton - Rainham service only runs every 30 minutes! Please don't tell me you will bring the Bedford trains onto the slow line.

 

[Edsmith]

I find some of the discussions on here extraordinary - from people who supposedly care about the railway, the dismissive approach towards passengers, the people the railway needs, is inexplicable. Take the Penge West and Anerley situation. These stations have had direct trains to central London since Victorian times. Now they have been arbitrarily withdrawn with no proper notice on the back of yet another desperate Southern timetable change, and instead - as Southern has shown - its quite happy to dump passengers anywhere the Overground runs knowing TFL will pick up the slack. No matter that being able to get a train to Surrey Quays or Hoxton is no replacement for being able to go to London Bridge. At the same time, important school and college links to East Croydon and beyond are broken (one big school flow is to South Croydon which now needs two changes), and anyone going to Gatwick or Brighton will probably think twice. It’s the thin end of the wedge and people who care about the railway should call it out as such.

Whilst agree about Anerley and Penge West a bit of pragmatism is necessary with income reduced post pandemic.

 

[Busaholic]

Agreed.

This attitude of “just get on the Liz Line/DLR/change at Cannon Street” attitude is infuriating, none are Charing Cross, one of the benefits of the 2018 as it gave some stations along the Woolwich corridor a direct service to Waterloo East & Charing Cross for the first time in years not to mention links to Lewisham which some stations like Erith & Belvedere hadn’t had in decades by that that point.

Don’t get me started on the appalling Anerley/Penge West situation, which again the solution for them is to suck it up and change at Canada Water or Whitechapel, changing at Sydenham isn’t really an option as Southern only run every half hour now and will increase journey times.

Then there’s the Bromley South metro lines reverting to a half hourly service, along routes which has an increased use of passengers, to the point in the peaks they had to load spread services so some Orpington-Victoria’s in the AM peaks skipped Penge East & Sydenham Hill, while a Sheerness service would stop at those stations.



There’s been talk of a Cannon Street to Gravesend via Blackheath and Woolwich off peak

If what is going to be happening had been proposed for Richmond, Harrow, Ealing or Barnet, let alone Islington, Hackney. or Camden, the Evening Standard would be fulminating and questions would be asked in Parliament. As the Mayor can't get bashed over any of it and is (justifiably) able to say it's out of his jurisdiction and therefore control, it just shows what a fundamentally flawed transport 'system' we have in the capital city.

The only thing I'll say about Woolwich to Lewisham is that I'd be amazed if the route doesn't survive in the offpeak, with the influence of some Blackheath residents and travellers combined with Charlton's rise in the pecking order. The latter must be a far cry from when I used to visit the Valley in the late 1950s and chomped on Percy Dalton's salted peanuts with our whippets in attendance!

 

[30907]

Don’t get me started on the appalling Anerley/Penge West situation, which again the solution for them is to suck it up and change at Canada Water or Whitechapel, changing at Sydenham isn’t really an option as Southern only run every half hour now and will increase journey times.

...which is the frequency Anerley and Penge West had before.

Then there’s the Bromley South metro lines reverting to a half hourly service, along routes which has an increased use of passengers, to the point in the peaks they had to load spread services so some Orpington-Victoria’s in the AM peaks skipped Penge East & Sydenham Hill, while a Sheerness service would stop at those stations.

It is still quarter hourly in the morning peak, which is when one train skipped Sydenham Hill to allow for the long-standing school traffic to West Dulwich (60 years to my knowledge), and a peak shoulder train omitted Penge, possibly for pathing reasons. I doubt peak traffic is yet at 100% of 2019 levels.
(Yes, offpeak loadings probably justify quarter-hourly on Saturdays at least.)