December 2022 Timetable Changes

[NorthKent1989]

which is the frequency Anerley and Penge West had before.

To London Bridge yes, now they have zero trains to Central London.

 

[30907]

To London Bridge yes, now they have zero trains to Central London.

My point being that the frequency to LBG is the same as before, I agree you have to change at Sydenham which adds 7min.

 

[NorthKent1989]

If what is going to be happening had been proposed for Richmond, Harrow, Ealing or Barnet, let alone Islington, Hackney. or Camden, the Evening Standard would be fulminating and questions would be asked in Parliament. As the Mayor can't get bashed over any of it and is (justifiably) able to say it's out of his jurisdiction and therefore control, it just shows what a fundamentally flawed transport 'system' we have in the capital city.

The only thing I'll say about Woolwich to Lewisham is that I'd be amazed if the route doesn't survive in the offpeak, with the influence of some Blackheath residents and travellers combined with Charlton's rise in the pecking order. The latter must be a far cry from when I used to visit the Valley in the late 1950s and chomped on Percy Dalton's salted peanuts with our whippets in attendance!

Indeed, you only have to look at the Wimbledon loop being able to continue through the Thameslink core, that had a lot of media coverage, whereas the Greenwich line losing Charing Cross trains in 2014/15 had locals seeking support but to no avail, though one could argue the Rainham Thameslink is to compensate for the loss of CX trains.

It’s like now that the Liz Line has opened (which is amazing and has done wonders to the local area) some on here are using that as a justification to axe a popular service, it’s ridiculous.

I don’t think they’ll end services between Charlton and Blackheath, on various forums they’re saying that there could be a Cannon Street to Gravesend service, Blackheath and Charlton residents have succeeded in keeping Charing Cross trains before but South Eastern seem determined to carry this out so we’ll have to see.

 

[brad465]

Having a look at the Maidstone East line's Saturday service, there appears to be an hourly AFK-VIC all day, with a few early morning MDE-CHX and then a few late evening CHX-MDE trains to bolster it. I can see this frequency going down badly, considering SE currently deem it worth running 2tph all day on Saturdays, which is more frequent than weekdays.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Having a look at the Maidstone East line's Saturday service, there appears to be an hourly AFK-VIC all day, with a few early morning MDE-CHX and then a few late evening CHX-MDE trains to bolster it. I can see this frequency going down badly, considering SE currently deem it worth running 2tph all day on Saturdays, which is more frequent than weekdays.

The Charing Cross to Maidstone East service is hourly on Saturday. Timetable is not fully in RTT yet.

 

[brad465]

The Charing Cross to Maidstone East service is hourly on Saturday. Timetable is not fully in RTT yet.

That makes more sense, thank you for confirming.

 

[SE%Traveller]

There is another service that will cover Blackheath to Charlton.

I've been puzzling over this one. If not Charing Cross that leaves Cannon Street and Victoria as destinations. The Former would surely not be much faster than the next Greenwich Train. The latter would introduce another conflicting move at Lewisham and 8 car carriage restrictions at Nunhead, Peckham Rye and Denmark hill (presuming they stopped there). Still would leave both North Kent and Bexleyheath lines with a West End destination, East London Line & Hospital access at Denmark Hill and 4 tph Victoria service at the 3 busy Stations mentioned (in addition to Blackheath & Lewisham).

 

[NorthKent1989]

I've been puzzling over this one. If not Charing Cross that leaves Cannon Street and Victoria as destinations. The Former would surely not be much faster than the next Greenwich Train. The latter would introduce another conflicting move at Lewisham and 8 car carriage restrictions at Nunhead, Peckham Rye and Denmark hill (presuming they stopped there). Still would leave both North Kent and Bexleyheath lines with a West End destination, East London Line & Hospital access at Denmark Hill and 4 tph Victoria service at the 3 busy Stations mentioned (in addition to Blackheath & Lewisham).

Apparently it’s Cannon Street, with the service rumoured to start from Gravesend (presumably to give Gravesend 4tph to the CrossRail connection at Abbey Wood) if this is the case I can’t see it making stops at St. John’s and New Cross, they may run it fast from Lewisham to LB.

I honestly don’t see any Woolwich line trains going to Victoria, but I can’t see why there can’t be a Charing Cross service, they haven’t removed the conflict if there’s still 2tph making that move, 4tph wouldn’t exactly hurt the reliability.

 

[London Trains]

I honestly don’t see any Woolwich line trains going to Victoria, but I can’t see why there can’t be a Charing Cross service, they haven’t removed the conflict if there’s still 2tph making that move, 4tph wouldn’t exactly hurt the reliability.

I'm not sure why they didn't change the service to only use the crossover in one direction instead, allowing Charing Cross/Victoria to Bexleyheath/Woolwich (P3/4 at Lewisham) but preventing Cannon Street to Hayes (P1/2 at Lewisham). This would drastically simplify everything while still removing a lot of conflicts.

This allows Victoria to the Bexleyheath line and Charing Cross to the Bexleyheath and Woolwich Lines to continue as now.

Cannon Street to Orpington and the Sidcup Line can run by avoiding Lewisham (and I would have these services skip New Cross and St Johns), and Lewisham connections would remain on Charing Cross services.

The only current service this would prevent is Cannon Street to Hayes.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I'm not sure why they didn't change the service to only use the crossover in one direction instead, allowing Charing Cross/Victoria to Bexleyheath/Woolwich (P3/4 at Lewisham) but preventing Cannon Street to Hayes (P1/2 at Lewisham). This would drastically simplify everything while still removing a lot of conflicts.

This allows Victoria to the Bexleyheath line and Charing Cross to the Bexleyheath and Woolwich Lines to continue as now.

Cannon Street to Orpington and the Sidcup Line can run by avoiding Lewisham (and I would have these services skip New Cross and St Johns), and Lewisham connections would remain on Charing Cross services.

The only current service this would prevent is Cannon Street to Hayes.

It’s bizarre that the lines that can literally avoid Lewisham to either Charing Cross or Cannon Street, will still get the option of both terminals, yet the lines that have to go through Lewisham are having their options limited to one, the Hayes line will lose Cannon Street but I’m not seeing any complaints at this as much as those from those who use the Woolwich and Bexleyheath lines at losing Charing Cross off peak.

Personally the Victoria’s should be from with Sidcup, Grove Park or Hayes, with no Cannon Streets from Lewisham P1&2.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

It’s bizarre that the lines that can literally avoid Lewisham to either Charing Cross or Cannon Street, will still get the option of both terminals, yet the lines that have to go through Lewisham are having their options limited to one, the Hayes line will lose Cannon Street but I’m not seeing any complaints at this as much as those from those who use the Woolwich and Bexleyheath lines at losing Charing Cross off peak.

Personally the Victoria’s should be from with Sidcup, Grove Park or Hayes, with no Cannon Streets from Lewisham P1&2.

There are no Cannon Street's off peak from Lewisham Platforms 1 and 2.

 

[NorthKent1989]

There are no Cannon Street's off peak from Lewisham Platforms 1 and 2.

I know but I meant going forward.

 

[SE%Traveller]

Apparently it’s Cannon Street, with the service rumoured to start from Gravesend (presumably to give Gravesend 4tph to the CrossRail connection at Abbey Wood) if this is the case I can’t see it making stops at St. John’s and New Cross, they may run it fast from Lewisham to LB.

I honestly don’t see any Woolwich line trains going to Victoria, but I can’t see why there can’t be a Charing Cross service, they haven’t removed the conflict if there’s still 2tph making that move, 4tph wouldn’t exactly hurt the reliability.

Is there room at Charing Cross now? the new timetable off peak has 16tph leaving Charing Cross and calling London Bridge whilst the current has 15.

WRT Cannon Street suppose running it FAST could make some more sense, however the only place i seen them in the timetable is on Saturday (14 Jan ) the '2A' and they show as stopping New Cross and St Johns.

agree Victoria seems unlikely, only really makes any sense if Charing Cross is indeed full.

 

[Chiltern006]

worth noting this is back in December for SE

 

[brad465]

Is there room at Charing Cross now? the new timetable off peak has 16tph leaving Charing Cross and calling London Bridge whilst the current has 15.

IIRC pre all the London Bridge works Charing X took 16tph, the main issue with that timetable was capacity at London Bridge.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Is there room at Charing Cross now? the new timetable off peak has 16tph leaving Charing Cross and calling London Bridge whilst the current has 15.

IIRC pre all the London Bridge works Charing X took 16tph, the main issue with that timetable was capacity at London Bridge.

Surely the capacity problem at London Bridge which the changes were meant to solve was the fact that Thameslink couldn't fit in at peak times because of ChX trains using all the 2-track capacity west of London Bridge. Now the extra bridge is in place, and there's 4 tracks west of London Bridge (to allow T/Link to run in parallel with the full ChX service), that problem is solved. The London Bridge works haven't done much to increase the maximum possible ChX services since the bottleneck was the two-track section as much as platforms at London Bridge itself. The doubling of the two-track section still only leaves one pair for ChX services. Maybe if, with the new layout, there weren't so many T/Link trains running that way (eg if lots more went via Elephant instead), then there could be more intense ChX service before the terminus itself became the capacity constraint? But as it is, you wouldn't expect the London Bridge changes to have had much effect on the maximum possible ChX services.

 

[Bald Rick]

Surely the capacity problem at London Bridge which the changes were meant to solve was the fact that Thameslink couldn't fit in at peak times because of ChX trains using all the 2-track capacity west of London Bridge. Now the extra bridge is in place, and there's 4 tracks west of London Bridge (to allow T/Link to run in parallel with the full ChX service), that problem is solved. The London Bridge works haven't done much to increase the maximum possible ChX services since the bottleneck was the two-track section as much as platforms at London Bridge itself. The doubling of the two-track section still only leaves one pair for ChX services. Maybe if, with the new layout, there weren't so many T/Link trains running that way (eg if lots more went via Elephant instead), then there could be more intense ChX service before the terminus itself became the capacity constraint? But as it is, you wouldn't expect the London Bridge changes to have had much effect on the maximum possible ChX services.

As ever, the capacity constraint is not the two track section, which can and does take 28 trains per hour each way, but platform capacity at Charing Cross and getting 28tph to London Bridge from the ‘country‘ side ie through the Lewisham / Tanners Hill complex.

 

[AlbertBeale]

As ever, the capacity constraint is not the two track section, which can and does take 28 trains per hour each way, but platform capacity at Charing Cross and getting 28tph to London Bridge from the ‘country‘ side ie through the Lewisham / Tanners Hill complex.

Ah - thanks for this. I hadn't realised that the platforms at ChX were more of constraint than the availability of only one track each way west of London Bridge.

 

[Agent_Squash]

To London Bridge yes, now they have zero trains to Central London.

London Bridge very much is Central London.

I honestly don’t get all the fuss. People change trains all the time. So long as the timetable is reliable enough to support good connections, there shouldn’t be an issue.

London Bridge has been upgraded to support increase interchange traffic. If it removes junction crossings by making them have to change in Zone 1, so be it.

I’ve just been to Vienna, and the main station is 3km from the centre. It’s less than half that for LBG.

 

[NorthKent1989]

London Bridge very much is Central London.

I honestly don’t get all the fuss. People change trains all the time. So long as the timetable is reliable enough to support good connections, there shouldn’t be an issue.

London Bridge has been upgraded to support increase interchange traffic. If it removes junction crossings by making them have to change in Zone 1, so be it.

I’ve just been to Vienna, and the main station is 3km from the centre. It’s less than half that for LBG.

I’m very aware London Bridge is a central terminal, The point i was making was that Penge West & Anerley are about to lose those trains and become London Overground services only.

Changing trains can add on journey times and can cause delays if a connection is missed.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Changing trains can add on journey times and can cause delays if a connection is missed.

Which is why you design the timetable in a robust manner so delays don’t spread!

Service groups should be kept separate. Trains to everywhere only benefit a limited few.

I’m very aware London Bridge is a central terminal, The point i was making was that Penge West & Anerley are about to lose those trains and become London Overground services only.

Most parts of the country would love a service with the frequency of the Overground.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Which is why you design the timetable in a robust manner so delays don’t spread!

Service groups should be kept separate. Trains to everywhere only benefit a limited few.



Most parts of the country would love a service with the frequency of the Overground.

Even the most robust timetables there can be room for delays and error, I think the formula of mixed CX/CS trains in South East London has been a massive benefit for the area for generations, so I don’t know how you can say they’re limited to a few, in fact this new timetable benefits a few

Don’t use the “other parts of the country would love this that the other” to justify loss of a direct service to a London terminal, Islington isn’t London Bridge.

 

[JonathanH]

Don’t use the “other parts of the country would love this that the other” to justify loss of a direct service to a London terminal, Islington isn’t London Bridge.

Canada Water has the connection to the Jubilee Line. Shoreditch High Street offers many of the same walking distances as London Bridge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m very aware London Bridge is a central terminal, The point i was making was that Penge West & Anerley are about to lose those trains and become London Overground services only.

Changing trains can add on journey times and can cause delays if a connection is missed.

There appears at present to be one train per day from Penge West and Anerley to London Bridge at about 0530. Not exactly much of a loss!

 

[87015]

There appears at present to be one train per day from Penge West and Anerley to London Bridge at about 0530. Not exactly much of a loss!

They were withdrawn in September, was 2tph all day previously. All dumped on LO who have no extra capacity to provide, the peaks are a mess.

And to top it off the “connections” into London Bridge services are as bad as they could possibly be at NXG, in both directions where GTR have decided to run.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Canada Water has the connection to the Jubilee Line. Shoreditch High Street offers many of the same walking distances as London Bridge.

Changing onto a cramped Jubilee line train is no replacement for direct LB trains.

Not to mention that Penge West & Anerley have now lost their direct East Croydon trains and therefore a one interchange to destinations south of there

 

[berneyarms]

They were withdrawn in September, was 2tph all day previously. All dumped on LO who have no extra capacity to provide, the peaks are a mess.

And to top it off the “connections” into London Bridge services are as bad as they could possibly be at NXG, in both directions where GTR have decided to run.

There is still one Southern service to London Bridge from Anerley operating at 05:28 and Penge West at 05:29, and two from London Bridge at 00:35 and 05:34.

These continue to operate after the timetable change.

 

[Edsmith]

I’m very aware London Bridge is a central terminal, The point i was making was that Penge West & Anerley are about to lose those trains and become London Overground services only.

Changing trains can add on journey times and can cause delays if a connection is missed.

Anerley and Penge West have already lost their direct service to London Bridge and to East Croydon other than a few early morning/late night trains. I think most people would rather keep the Southern service and curtail LO at New Cross Gate.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I’m very aware London Bridge is a central terminal, The point i was making was that Penge West & Anerley are about to lose those trains and become London Overground services only.

Changing trains can add on journey times and can cause delays if a connection is missed.

Charlton is going to last and people will exist happily without Charing Cross trains.

A smorgasbord of services from London Bridge means you hop on from Charing Cross and almost always have a sub-10 minute connection. If you go from Charing Cross you effectively end up with one cancellation and everything’s buggered.

Connections are fine, London Bridge is great, it’s a big destination, and the very nature of the beast is that Thameslink and Crossrail is completely redrawing the way people think of going.

And the North Kent line will be happily going along with their Cannon Street trains.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Even the most robust timetables there can be room for delays and error, I think the formula of mixed CX/CS trains in South East London has been a massive benefit for the area for generations, so I don’t know how you can say they’re limited to a few, in fact this new timetable benefits a few

Don’t use the “other parts of the country would love this that the other” to justify loss of a direct service to a London terminal, Islington isn’t London Bridge.

Before there wasn’t a decent interchange available at London Bridge between CX and CS trains. Now there is.

Not everything needs to be connected to a London terminal. There are very good connections on the ELL.

You need an argument stronger than ‘because it’s always been this way’.