Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[craigybagel]

Is that weight related as well or more to do with paperwork

No idea. All I know is the Network Rail of a decade ago said yes to the MKIIIs, and the Network Rail of now said no to the MKIVs

 

[tomuk]

No idea. All I know is the Network Rail of a decade ago said yes to the MKIIIs, and the Network Rail of now said no to the MKIVs

Well MkIVs are heavier and have indifferent bogies.

 

[Nym]

Mk.IIIs were also appproved for "Any formation" where Mk.IVs are not. Also, Mk.IVb and IVc only apply the brakes from one end.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Mk.IIIs were also appproved for "Any formation" where Mk.IVs are not. Also, Mk.IVb and IVc only apply the brakes from one end.

Mark 4b and mark 4c?

I'm aware that the mark 2 and mark 3 designs went through a number of variations, ie: mark 2a/2b/2c/2d/2e/2f and mark 3 prototype/null/3a/3b but I can't recall ever having heard of variations of the mark 4s and it seems unlikely any existed because all the mark 4s built were part of a single contract for a single purpose (the IC225 fleet) unlike the mark 2 and mark 3.

 

[Envoy]

I take it that the DVT is mainly empty space? If so, surely it could be used for bicycle storage and promoted as such as this would surely reduce the number of people trying to take bikes on the limited space 197’s? Could the space also be used to carry express parcels?

 

[krus_aragon]

I take it that the DVT is mainly empty space? If so, surely it could be used for bicycle storage and promoted as such as this would surely reduce the number of people trying to take bikes on the limited space 197’s? Could the space also be used to carry express parcels?

I believe the DVT space is already used for bicycles. That was certainly the case in the MkIII days.

Your point about encouraging people to aim for these services (especially on the Cardiff-Manchester axis, where they'll form every other service) is a good one.

 

[craigybagel]

I believe the DVT space is already used for bicycles. That was certainly the case in the MkIII days.

Your point about encouraging people to aim for these services (especially on the Cardiff-Manchester axis, where they'll form every other service) is a good one.

Correct, there is space for several bikes in the DVT. The forward set of loading doors on each side have been permanently locked out of use as that's where the bike racks have been placed.

 

[Techniquest]

I take it that the DVT is mainly empty space? If so, surely it could be used for bicycle storage and promoted as such as this would surely reduce the number of people trying to take bikes on the limited space 197’s? Could the space also be used to carry express parcels?

As the honourable gentleman @craigybagel says, they are already fitted with good quality racks for 6 cycles. I already aim for the MK4 sets where realistic when I'm out with one of my cycles, and others do as well. I've never taken a photo of the space for some reason, otherwise I'd attach it here.

Having more MK4 sets out in service is going to be very welcome, it'll help encourage me to go travelling on TfW more often that's for sure.

 

[GWVillager]

On a note away from bicycles, are there any booked Mark 4 services on Saturdays? I can't see any on RTT or any other source, yet I did once have a set turn up a few months ago. I presume that they'll only appear on Holyhead-Cardiff trains.

 

[Watershed]

On a note away from bicycles, are there any booked Mark 4 services on Saturdays? I can't see any on RTT or any other source, yet I did once have a set turn up a few months ago. I presume that they'll only appear on Holyhead-Cardiff trains.

Not at the moment. From December, the Cardiff-Manchester paths timed for Mk4s run at the same times as on weekdays - but it's a seperate question whether they actually do run using Mk4s (bearing in mind that 158s/175s and, at a push 150s/153s, can also run to those timings).

 

[Anonymous10]

Not at the moment. From December, the Cardiff-Manchester paths timed for Mk4s run at the same times as on weekdays - but it's a seperate question whether they actually do run using Mk4s (bearing in mind that 158s/175s and, at a push 150s/153s, can also run to those timings).

one would presume they would push them out if possible though given they still r having reliability issues on 153s and they're mainly up west

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not at the moment. From December, the Cardiff-Manchester paths timed for Mk4s run at the same times as on weekdays - but it's a seperate question whether they actually do run using Mk4s (bearing in mind that 158s/175s and, at a push 150s/153s, can also run to those timings).

There don't appear to be any Mk4 paths in for Holyhead-Cardiff trains at weekends in the Dec 22 timetable.

 

[sd0733]

There are 4 diagrams booked on a Saturday covering all the Manchesters that are booked in the week bar the 1430 and 2030 off Manchester.
The diagrams ive seen though clearly arent the final ones for a weekend as they dont balance. Theres definitely planned Saturday work though but nothing on a Sunday.

 

[Envoy]

So, Sunday is the main leisure day when people may want to take bicycles, yet from what has been said here, it would appear that the best trains to carry the bikes won’t be out and about. Hmm..

 

[Anonymous10]

So, Sunday is the main leisure day when people may want to take bicycles, yet from what has been said here, it would appear that the best trains to carry the bikes won’t be out and about. Hmm..

comes down to guards and drivers there are less about anyways so at the start i wouldn't expect them on a Sunday for that exact reason

 

[Caaardiff]

So, Sunday is the main leisure day when people may want to take bicycles, yet from what has been said here, it would appear that the best trains to carry the bikes won’t be out and about. Hmm..

You'd hope that in the not so distant future that they would be used 7 days a week, even if just at reduced levels on a weekend. Currently there seems to be a big mix of 2-5 car 175s and 3-6 car mix of 150/153/158 working marches services on a Sunday, whereas North Wales seems to struggle with a mix of 2-4 car 175's/158's, more so 2 and 3 cars.
The issue with the Mk4's is they don't have any kind of home maintenance base within TfW. Arriva Crewe do the maintenance currently and i'm not sure if there's plans to expand that to more than one mk4 set per week. When all train crew are trained up it might allow more flexibility from a rostering perspective to provide a consistent timetable that is always covered by the relevant trained train crew.

 

[craigybagel]

You'd hope that in the not so distant future that they would be used 7 days a week, even if just at reduced levels on a weekend. Currently there seems to be a big mix of 2-5 car 175s and 3-6 car mix of 150/153/158 working marches services on a Sunday, whereas North Wales seems to struggle with a mix of 2-4 car 175's/158's, more so 2 and 3 cars.
The issue with the Mk4's is they don't have any kind of home maintenance base within TfW. Arriva Crewe do the maintenance currently and i'm not sure if there's plans to expand that to more than one mk4 set per week. When all train crew are trained up it might allow more flexibility from a rostering perspective to provide a consistent timetable that is always covered by the relevant trained train crew.

Crewe should have 2 sets stabling every night from December. Currently the spare set is kept there during the week and it wouldn't surprise me if that's the case going forward (when 6 sets from 7 are diagrammed) given the lack of space in Canton. It's also convenient for Crewe ETD where the 67s themselves are maintained.

Crew training for both Cardiff and Crewe is continuing as fast as possible, there's a real push to get these sets into service asap.

 

[Bikeman78]

Well MkIVs are heavier and have indifferent bogies.

At the risk of being dull, what difference does a slight increase in axle load for the carriages make when the attached class 67 is much heavier than either type of carriage? Also a Mark 4 weighs less per vehicle than a class 175 vehicle but they are allowed to go at the higher speeds.

 

[tomuk]

At the risk of being dull, what difference does a slight increase in axle load for the carriages make when the attached class 67 is much heavier than either type of carriage? Also a Mark 4 weighs less per vehicle than a class 175 vehicle but they are allowed to go at the higher speeds.

In the spefic case of the MkIVs it is probably just down to paperwork as they have never operated on the Marches before. In a more general sense it isn't just the all up weight or the axle weight but things like the unsprung mass, dynamic behaviour of the body etc. When BR introduced the MkIVs there were all sorts of problems with poor riding of the SIG bogies, I believe the bogies are now mounted 'back to front' and the inter coach gangway dampening was increased. It is an interesting comparison with the 175s as they are in effect grandchildren of the MkIVs.

 

[Spekejunction]

In the spefic case of the MkIVs it is probably just down to paperwork as they have never operated on the Marches before. In a more general sense it isn't just the all up weight or the axle weight but things like the unsprung mass, dynamic behaviour of the body etc. When BR introduced the MkIVs there were all sorts of problems with poor riding of the SIG bogies, I believe the bogies are now mounted 'back to front' and the inter coach gangway dampening was increased. It is an interesting comparison with the 175s as they are in effect grandchildren of the MkIVs.

Mark 4 sets run up and down the Marches Line (Shrewsbury to Newport) line every day.
Has the Crewe to Shrewsbury line been cleared..?

 

[tomuk]

Mark 4 sets run up and down the Marches Line (Shrewsbury to Newport) line every day.
Has the Crewe to Shrewsbury line been cleared..?

I know that but they didn't before they were brought in to replace the MkIIIs, they don't have any grandfather rights and they still don't on the full route.

 

[craigybagel]

The GC set came off Crewe today and is on its way empty to Canton. 67029 on the front.

 

[Nym]

Mark 4b and mark 4c?

I'm aware that the mark 2 and mark 3 designs went through a number of variations, ie: mark 2a/2b/2c/2d/2e/2f and mark 3 prototype/null/3a/3b but I can't recall ever having heard of variations of the mark 4s and it seems unlikely any existed because all the mark 4s built were part of a single contract for a single purpose (the IC225 fleet) unlike the mark 2 and mark 3.

The AAR conversions are the subsequent suffixes.

 

[GWVillager]

Mark 4 sets run up and down the Marches Line (Shrewsbury to Newport) line every day.
Has the Crewe to Shrewsbury line been cleared..?

Should be that. Still not cleared via Whitchurch so no option but to follow the route via Chester.

Its mostly paperwork i believe but there are a couple of minor alterations to some platforms that need to happen, nothing particularly major.

All I know!

 

[SuperLuke2334]

The GC set came off Crewe today and is on its way empty to Canton. 67029 on the front.

Is this the set that has been up there months or the one that went up on Thursday? And what is it going down to Cardiff for?

 

[craigybagel]

Has the Crewe to Shrewsbury line been cleared..?

All I know!

Due to be done in time for October to allow for proving runs to take place.

Is this the set that has been up there months or the one that went up on Thursday? And what is it going down to Cardiff for?

No idea to either I'm afraid, I just happened to see it passing through Chester.

 

[GWVillager]

Due to be done in time for October to allow for proving runs to take place.

No idea to either I'm afraid, I just happened to see it passing through Chester.

Is that 3V78?

 

[87electric]

Correct, there is space for several bikes in the DVT. The forward set of loading doors on each side have been permanently locked out of use as that's where the bike racks have been placed.

Would there be potential issues with short platforms in accessing the DVT? Forgive me if it has already been mentioned.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Due to be done in time for October to allow for proving runs to take place.

No idea to either I'm afraid, I just happened to see it passing through Chester.

Ah ok. I'm waiting for it to come past me but seems like it's been delayed further by the 1131 Manchester

Seems to have been stopped at Leominster for 20 minutes according to RTT, anyone know why?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Sep 2022 ==

Edit again, now on the move again. Seems to be a problem around there because every train going through is picking up a 10 minute extra delay

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Sep 2022 ==

Yet another edit

Just passed me it was 67029 with 82227, so the same set that went north on Thursday. I wonder what it was heading to Cardiff for?

 

[craigybagel]

Is that 3V78?

That's the one

Would there be potential issues with short platforms in accessing the DVT? Forgive me if it has already been mentioned.

At the moment, when running in the correct formation with the DVT at the Cardiff end the DVT isn't platformed at Ruabon & Chirk both ways, and at Ludlow in the down (southbound) direction.

The addition of the 5th car is likely to add to that list, and some of the new stations served from December (Nantwich, Whitchurch, Wem, Leominster and Pyle (if the unadvertised stop there gets made public)) will likely not be able to platform the DVT either in at least one if not both directions - but we're awaiting the installation of stopping boards to confirm that, and a formal decision on which way around the sets will run