Sprinter Extinction

[Neptune]

Not so much, there are plenty of suitable routes of which Northern could use them on (the fact Northern have so many 158s suggests this, because they are a similar type of train).

If you did your research properly you’d realise that Northern only have so many 158’s due to the fact so many became available in 2005/06. Northern only had 18x2 car 158’s at the start of the Serco franchise in 2004. There was a huge shortage of units within the franchise. Then along came 40 odd 158’s released by ATW, WT and CT and Northern snapped them up for no other reason than the fact they were available. Did you also notice that they later snapped up the huge number of 150’s made available by LM and GWR?

It irritates me a bit as I get the feeling one or two posters, like the one above, actually don't want Northern to get 175s because they see Northern as a lesser TOC than the likes of Chiltern and not befitting of attaining high quality regional express stock.

Which is why I suggested 185’s. Larger fleet of far higher quality, guaranteed minimum 3 car units with more suitable door positions for the kind of inter-urban/minimal local work they’d do with a depot in Manchester purpose built for them invoking zero additional maintenance costs. The balance then made up with bi-mode Civity’s.

I want nothing but the best for Northern, I just don’t obsess over sending 175’s to Cumbria/North East/Hull/whatever location takes the fancy this week.

So as someone who works for Northern I'm more keen to promote the idea as a result.

If you work for Northern as I have done for nearly 30 years you’ll know that unless you are in the right department you have absolutely no say whatsoever in fleet decisions. I’d give up on that one immediately if I were you.

I think you can list pros and cons for both Northern and Chiltern using 175s, but if 10 drivers have been saying the same thing as reported then there's a chance there's some substance to it - and they'd be a good and more modern replacement for some 156s and 158s.

If you work for northern then you’d know that messroom tittle tattle without any substance isn’t worth the paper it’s written on.

But just to confirm I’m sure you won’t mind asking the question about 175’s on the internal Yammer page? Not all of us have Facebook/Twitter etc… I’d be intrigued to see the answer but we all have access to that.

 

[skyhigh]

But just to confirm I’m sure you won’t mind asking the question about 175’s on the internal Yammer page? Not all of us have Facebook/Twitter etc… I’d be intrigued to see the answer but we all have access to that.

There's a Director Q&A session on Friday. Sounds like the perfect time to ask the question to me...

 

[Neptune]

There's a Director Q&A session on Friday. Sounds like the perfect time to ask the question to me...

Ditto, not for us to ask though

 

[Philip]

If you did your research properly you’d realise that Northern only have so many 158’s due to the fact so many became available in 2005/06. Northern only had 18x2 car 158’s at the start of the Serco franchise in 2004. There was a huge shortage of units within the franchise. Then along came 40 odd 158’s released by ATW, WT and CT and Northern snapped them up for no other reason than the fact they were available. Did you also notice that they later snapped up the huge number of 150’s made available by LM and GWR?

Which is why I suggested 185’s. Larger fleet of far higher quality, guaranteed minimum 3 car units with more suitable door positions for the kind of inter-urban/minimal local work they’d do with a depot in Manchester purpose built for them invoking zero additional maintenance costs. The balance then made up with bi-mode Civity’s.

I want nothing but the best for Northern, I just don’t obsess over sending 175’s to Cumbria/North East/Hull/whatever location takes the fancy this week.

If you work for Northern as I have done for nearly 30 years you’ll know that unless you are in the right department you have absolutely no say whatsoever in fleet decisions. I’d give up on that one immediately if I were you.

If you work for northern then you’d know that messroom tittle tattle without any substance isn’t worth the paper it’s written on.

But just to confirm I’m sure you won’t mind asking the question about 175’s on the internal Yammer page? Not all of us have Facebook/Twitter etc… I’d be intrigued to see the answer but we all have access to that.

I'm not going to ask because even if a deal is going on behind the scenes, they're not going to say so on the Yammer page.

In relation to the point about 158s, what you're saying is pretty much the situation we'll soon have with 175s, so there's not much difference. People seem to be assuming Chiltern will be getting rid of some of their 16x fleet (and not replacing 165s with purpose-built new trains), in order to justify sending 175s there. Even if they received all 27 175s, it wouldn't be enough to.replace the 168s, so even that wouldn't be an efficient solution.
I still feel 185s are of a level quality that they're appropriate for use on 'intercity' services but will agree that there are plenty of Northern services they'd be good for. However the difference is that no 185s will be available in the foreseable future; 175s will be.

I'll throw another idea into the ring which doesn't involve Northern; how about 175s to EMR to replace 158s on Liverpool-Nottingham services?

 

[Neptune]

I'm not going to ask because even if a deal is going on behind the scenes, they're not going to say so on the Yammer page.

If I was as keen as you to find out I’d certainly ask. As an employee of Northern you will know that the director Q&A sessions are for that very purpose. After all, if a load of drivers at Chester know about it it isn’t much of a secret. Go for it, what have you got to lose?

In relation to the point about 158s, what you're saying is pretty much the situation we'll soon have with 175s, so there's not much difference.

Theres nothing at all similar about it. We took the 158’s due to a gross shortage of rolling stock at the time. We got lucky that they were available.

I still feel 185s are of a level quality that they're appropriate for use on 'intercity' services but will agree that there are plenty of Northern services they'd be good for.

You think XC 170’s are Intercity quality so your bar is set very low in the first place.

However the difference is that no 185s will be available in the foreseable future; 175s will be.

True, I never said they weren’t but I also gave reasons why they are a decent fit at Northern should TPE get more 802’s to replace them.

I'll throw another idea into the ring which doesn't involve Northern; how about 175s to EMR to replace 158s on Liverpool-Nottingham services?

Done to death before. Nothing new in that suggestion.

 

[RobShipway]

I'm not going to ask because even if a deal is going on behind the scenes, they're not going to say so on the Yammer page.

In relation to the point about 158s, what you're saying is pretty much the situation we'll soon have with 175s, so there's not much difference. People seem to be assuming Chiltern will be getting rid of some of their 16x fleet (and not replacing 165s with purpose-built new trains), in order to justify sending 175s there. Even if they received all 27 175s, it wouldn't be enough to.replace the 168s, so even that wouldn't be an efficient solution.
I still feel 185s are of a level quality that they're appropriate for use on 'intercity' services but will agree that there are plenty of Northern services they'd be good for. However the difference is that no 185s will be available in the foreseable future; 175s will be.

I'll throw another idea into the ring which doesn't involve Northern; how about 175s to EMR to replace 158s on Liverpool-Nottingham services?

You do realise that there is only 11 two car class 175 units, so you would be replacing many of the EMR class 158 two car units with 3 car units. Now I can see the class 175 units going to SWR, to replace the 10 2-car class 158 units and 16 3 car units replacing some of the class 159 units. Or to replace the class 171 units at Southern, which then move to EMR once converted back to being class 170 units. But both these suggestions in threads elsewhere, I am pretty sure have been done to death.

 

[Philip]

If I was as keen as you to find out I’d certainly ask. As an employee of Northern you will know that the director Q&A sessions are for that very purpose. After all, if a load of drivers at Chester know about it it isn’t much of a secret. Go for it, what have you got to lose?

I'll admit I'm fond of the units but this is for personal reasons - it was going for trips out to places like Chester, Holyhead, Windermere etc which led to a career in the railways and these were the units I travelled on. They also tend to follow a lot of the canals which are my main interest so I quite like them for that. From a mechanical point of view, I always thought the hydrodynamic brake made one of the best sounds I've heard on a train. It'd be nice if they stick around in the north but I feel I've added valid points about the practicalities of Northern using them, particularly for 155/156 replacement, but looks like we'll have to agree to disagree.
The EMR idea may have been done to death, but surely this would be a route they'd be suited to and a slight upgrade on 158s?

 

[MattRat]

The EMR idea may have been done to death, but surely this would be a route they'd be suited to and a slight upgrade on 158s?

Plus said 158s could cascade to Northern.....

 

[Chester1]

185s would be a better option for Liverpool to Nottingham. TPE could order more 802s. EMR rolling stock for other routes has already been agreed. EMRs 26 x 158s would be suitable for Northern to scrap 156s and for replacing GWRs loco hauled sets.

I do wonder whether sprinter replacement will be like pacer replacement. I mean left very late and primarily done with one big order of new rolling stock that may or may not be a best long term option.

 

[Neptune]

185s would be a better option for Liverpool to Nottingham.

They wouldn’t need 51 of them for that. Even running as 6 car sets and allowing for spares it would need 15 - 18 at most.

TPE could order more 802s. EMR rolling stock for other routes has already been agreed. EMRs 26 x 158s would be suitable for Northern to scrap 156s and for replacing GWRs loco hauled sets.

So part of your solution for Northern to make the 15x fleet extinct is to get some more! Brilliant.

 

[MattRat]

I do wonder whether sprinter replacement will be like pacer replacement. I mean left very late and primarily done with one big order of new rolling stock that may or may not be a best long term option.

Seems to be Northern's plan, if the DFT allow it of course. I don't understand why the DFT drag their feet though, the 19x aren't exactly premium or expensive. Then again, it's an industry problem. If Network rail actually did some minor electrification projects, EMUs could replace DMUs that currently run under majority wired routes.

 

[QSK19]

Plus said 158s could cascade to Northern.....

Queue Northern users’ usual angry response of “we don’t want EMR’s old junk!”

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So part of your solution for Northern to make the 15x fleet extinct is to get some more! Brilliant.

To be fair, I think the user meant that it’s part of a gradual/phased Sprinter removal - in the sense that a bunch of newer ones sees off the older ones before a more substantial, wholesale renewal is carried out further down the line.

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185s would be a better option for Liverpool to Nottingham.

Another type of train with my namesake engines running EMR services… for that reason alone, they have to replace the 158s

 

[Chester1]

They wouldn’t need 51 of them for that. Even running as 6 car sets and allowing for spares it would need 15 - 18 at most.

So part of your solution for Northern to make the 15x fleet extinct is to get some more! Brilliant.

I know. I didn’t mean the whole 185 fleet. Maybe 8 x 802s to free up 16 x 185s enabling EMR to cascade its 158s to Northern. What we really need is a large order of cheap bimodes. While that is possible to design for UK loading gauge it doesn't seem to exist yet. In the mean time there will probably be a lot of messing about to get rid of the worst (or most expensive) units and make do.

The 158s are the best quality sprinters and some are going off lease in next couple of years so it makes sense to use them to help scrap 155s and 156s. If Northern received cascaded 158s from TfW they would likely stay in service until end of decade or the early 2030s.

 

[Trainbike46]

I know. I didn’t mean the whole 185 fleet. Maybe 8 x 802s to free up 16 x 185s enabling EMR to cascade its 158s to Northern. What we really need is a large order of cheap bimodes. While that is possible to design for UK loading gauge it doesn't seem to exist yet. In the mean time there will probably be a lot of messing about to get rid of the worst (or most expensive) units and make do.

the 755 and 756 are an option

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Plus, hasn't CAF offered a civity bimode in the past? Though none of that theoretical train exist yet

 

[Chester1]

the 755 and 756 are an option

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Plus, hasn't CAF offered a civity bimode in the past? Though none of that theoretical train exist yet

755 and 756s are more expensive than Civitys. Northern looked into hybrid Civitys earlier this year indicating a proper bimode Civity was too expensive. The best option at the moment is to order new bimodes for suitable routes and cascade DMUs to replace 150s, 155s and 156s. Hopefully within five years or so a budget bimode option will be available to replace 158s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

755 and 756s are more expensive than Civitys. Northern looked into hybrid Civitys earlier this year indicating a proper bimode Civity was too expensive. The best option at the moment is to order new bimodes for suitable routes and cascade DMUs to replace 150s, 155s and 156s. Hopefully within five years or so a budget bimode option will be available to replace 158s.

If they only go to CAF (for 195 compatibles) or Stadler (for FLIRTs) then the costs will be high. If they specify say an approximately 70-80m bimode with level boarding for wheelchair users (one coach only, the centre section of the one with the wheelchair space and accessible bog would be fine) then everyone can bid and it'd be cheaper.

 

[Trainbike46]

Are the 195 and 331 one compatible? If so, it might be useful if a bimode would be compatible with both.

If they only go to CAF (for 195 compatibles) or Stadler (for FLIRTs) then the costs will be high. If they specify say an approximately 70-80m bimode with level boarding for wheelchair users (one coach only, the centre section of the one with the wheelchair space and accessible bog would be fine) then everyone can bid and it'd be cheaper.

Good point, they could put out a competitive tender for bimodes, and see what the manufacturers come up with. Though I'd assume manufacturers who already made a UK bimode, or who have already developed a plan for one would have an advantage in any case

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are the 195 and 331 one compatible?

I believe not, other than possibly for dragging unpowered in emergency. The coupler electricals use different voltages.

 

[HSTEd]

Open bidding, making clear that the winning design would be the go-to for most non high speed unit replacements for the forseable future might get some competitive bids. [A large programme is certainly an advantage here]

 

[skyhigh]

Are the 195 and 331 one compatible?

No, emergency coupling for rescue purposes only. And even then, an absolute maximum of 90 minutes journey time.

 

[Trainbike46]

No, emergency coupling for rescue purposes only. And even then, an absolute maximum of 90 minutes journey time.

Are the 331 and 195 at least compatible with some other northern stock?

I understand you probably wouldn't want to run the 195 and 331 coupled in service anyway, but a theoretical bimode could be useful coupled to either of them so that is a bit unfortunate

 

[skyhigh]

Are the 331 and 195 at least compatible with some other northern stock?

No, within class only.

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I understand you probably wouldn't want to run the 195 and 331 coupled in service anyway, but a theoretical bimode could be useful coupled to either of them so that is a bit unfortunate

I guess it wouldn't be impossible to have a selector switch in the cab to allow the hypothetical bimode unit to work with either, but it would add expense and potential for error.

 

[Trainbike46]

No, within class only.

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Makes you wonder why they're not the same if they can only run within their own class! They're both civity

 

[tomuk]

Makes you wonder why they're not the same if they can only run within their own class! They're both civity

To keep the cost of the diesel 195s as low as possible the onboard electrical systems use 24v i.e. the same as trucks and buses. 331s use 110v which is easier to derive if your starting with 25kV rather than an alternator.

 

[Energy]

To keep the cost of the diesel 195s as low as possible the onboard electrical systems use 24v i.e. the same as trucks and buses. 331s use 110v which is easier to derive if your starting with 25kV rather than an alternator.

24v is fairly standard for DMUs. Not much point having them compatable in service, you wouldn't want a 195 under wires and the 331 needs wires to operate. The mechanical coupling (which they can do) is enough for emergency rescue and stock moves.

 

[Trainbike46]

24v is fairly standard for DMUs. Not much point having them compatable in service, you wouldn't want a 195 under wires and the 331 needs wires to operate. The mechanical coupling (which they can do) is enough for emergency rescue and stock moves.

That makes sense. I was thinking from a theoretical civity bimode, and for such a train in service coupling to either a 331 or a 195 could be useful, which seems unlikely to be easy as they use different systems. Then I was curious why they aren't compatible being from the same family, but that has been cleared up too

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Sep 2022 ==

To keep the cost of the diesel 195s as low as possible the onboard electrical systems use 24v i.e. the same as trucks and buses. 331s use 110v which is easier to derive if your starting with 25kV rather than an alternator.

Thanks!

 

[Energy]

That makes sense. I was thinking from a theoretical civity bimode, and for such a train in service coupling to either a 331 or a 195 could be useful, which seems unlikely to be easy as they use different systems. Then I was curious why they aren't compatible being from the same family, but that has been cleared up too

Depends how incompatable they are, if the comms are similar but different voltages them mods to standardise the 195s and 331s tot eh same voltage would be too difficult. Alternatively a theoretical bimode could autodetect which one its connected to and adjust appropriately.

 

[Halifaxlad]

The 158s are the best quality sprinters and some are going off lease in next couple of years so it makes sense to use them to help scrap 155s and 156s. If Northern received cascaded 158s from TfW they would likely stay in service until end of decade or the early 2030s.

Considering 158s are expected to stay in service after most of the other older units have been scrapped this would be a very good idea!

The best option at the moment is to order new bimodes for suitable routes and cascade DMUs to replace 150s, 155s and 156s. Hopefully within five years or so a budget bimode option will be available to replace 158s.

I would rather any new trains were designed like the Stadler Flirts i.e. built as diesels but designed for conversion to electric/battery later in life although preferably with the equipment under the floor instead.

Long term, what ever replaces 158s Northern will want to procure from CAF and no-doubt have a matching interior to existing 195s & 331s which is understandable.

I can see a variant of 196/197 coming!

 

[RobShipway]

Considering 158s are expected to stay in service after most of the other older units have been scrapped this would be a very good idea!



I would rather any new trains were designed like the Stadler Flirts i.e. built as diesels but designed for conversion to electric/battery later in life although preferably with the equipment under the floor instead.

Long term, what ever replaces 158s Northern will want to procure from CAF and no-doubt have a matching interior to existing 195s & 331s which is understandable.

I can see a variant of 196/197 coming!

I can see Northern doing as West Midlands Trains have done and ordering 4 car Class 195/196/197 CAF Civity trains to replace the dual class 150, dual 2-car class 158 and class 150/158 2-car workings. They could possibly order enough to replace the dual 2-car class 195 workings. Doing this would give them a standard fleet. However, as you state I think it would be better to be ordering Stadler Flirts or CAF similar train that are built as diesels, but can be converted to electric/battery trains.

 

[D365]

I would rather any new trains were designed like the Stadler Flirts i.e. built as diesel-electrics but designed for conversion to electric/battery later in life although preferably with the equipment under the floor instead.

Correction - diesel-electric is a critical difference when it comes to the Flirts