Should I pursue a career as a pilot or a train driver?

[Ludus]

Nicely put. I also embarked on a “zero to hero” course with a large training school in 2006. Funded mostly from an enormous bank loan. Qualified mid 2008 with all high grades and first time passes in all flight tests. I won’t bore you with the torture I endured trying to get a job but I was never employed as a pilot. I’ve now been a train driver for 7 years. Wish I’d done it sooner. Will fly for fun now.

And this is the exact problem i've witnessed many times and what has ultimately made me put my dream on hold. If you're already very wealthy, then go for it as you've not got much to lose, but for the average Joe this risk is far too great these days and even if you get on one of the MPL programmes there's still no guarantee you'll be offered a job by the end of it. It is definitely a shame though as many passionate and skilled pilots miss out whilst those born with silver spoons in their mouths without even the slightest interest in aviation end up in the right hand seat because daddy thought it would be a good idea for Sebastian to get a "proper job". Not bitter at all

 

[Shunted]

100k gamble! Not for me

 

[RailExplorer]

My two pence worth.

I started flying at 15, solo by 16 and got my PPL at 18. It was hard working earning £3.36 an hour and paying £130 an hour for flying lessons. Decided to go to uni (did a Master in engineering). And during the rest of my time at uni I built my flying hours up to the magic 150 hours by the time I graduated (I lived at home so could afford that). That was fun as I did all that with friends. After graduation, with an engineering graduate job, but now living in house shares, I was skint. Flying went on hold.

Two years later I was made redundant from the graduate job. I needed a major re think as it was 2010 and the back end of the financial crisis. Saw a Train Driver role and applied. Was accepted no problem at the age of 23. As soon as I started training for the Train Driver role, I also enrolled at Bristol GS. During the 13 month train driver course I also did my ATPL exams. That gave me 3 years to get my IR and CPL licences. I was convinced at this point I could still be a pilot.

I was married by this time though and about 26. Life started to get in the way. I justified some expenditure on flying and got my night rating and started my CPL. But trying to work overtime to afford the flying, shift work and generally convince my wife that spending money on flying was wise became harder and harder and eventually, with time against me I decided to stop. My ATPLs expired a year later and since then I flown perhaps 20 hours or so between the ages of 28 and 31. I’m now 35. I will however fly again as I always dreamt of doing a sea plane rating, but I’m no rush.

On the railways, apart from Train Driving, I’ve tried out being a Driver Manager and working in Ops Standards. Now very happy as a DI, and very appreciative of what I have. Far far far more than I was when I first got my driving key at 24. Maturity, home lifestyle/responsibilities and experience has a lot to do with this.

Do I have regrets, yes and no.

I have always been equally interested in aviation and railways. Perhaps more railways than aviation. So that’s not a problem. Financially I am most likely better off driving. Job security wise I am better off driving. I am at home every night. And I spend my days off work travelling the world (in fact these days I have a dislike for airports and sitting on a plane - I put that down to age!!!) But I will always have that little feeling at the back of my mind… what if I could’ve been a pilot. And that’s the worst. But I just have to tell myself that I must be better off the way things turn out.

The moral of the story. You never know what life throws at you. Have a back up plan, and a few more back up plans for the back up plan. The PPL 100% helped me walk straight off the street to the driving grade on my first attempt at 23. As for the degree (I now have a second one in Railway Ops sponsored by a TOC) - are either very useful, probably not. Do I regret doing either, absolutely not. They have undoubtedly helped me at some point.

 

[niggill617@gma]

My two pence worth.

I started flying at 15, solo by 16 and got my PPL at 18. It was hard working earning £3.36 an hour and paying £130 an hour for flying lessons. Decided to go to uni (did a Master in engineering). And during the rest of my time at uni I built my flying hours up to the magic 150 hours by the time I graduated (I lived at home so could afford that). That was fun as I did all that with friends. After graduation, with an engineering graduate job, but now living in house shares, I was skint. Flying went on hold.

Two years later I was made redundant from the graduate job. I needed a major re think as it was 2010 and the back end of the financial crisis. Saw a Train Driver role and applied. Was accepted no problem at the age of 23. As soon as I started training for the Train Driver role, I also enrolled at Bristol GS. During the 13 month train driver course I also did my ATPL exams. That gave me 3 years to get my IR and CPL licences. I was convinced at this point I could still be a pilot.

I was married by this time though and about 26. Life started to get in the way. I justified some expenditure on flying and got my night rating and started my CPL. But trying to work overtime to afford the flying, shift work and generally convince my wife that spending money on flying was wise became harder and harder and eventually, with time against me I decided to stop. My ATPLs expired a year later and since then I flown perhaps 20 hours or so between the ages of 28 and 31. I’m now 35. I will however fly again as I always dreamt of doing a sea plane rating, but I’m no rush.

On the railways, apart from Train Driving, I’ve tried out being a Driver Manager and working in Ops Standards. Now very happy as a DI, and very appreciative of what I have. Far far far more than I was when I first got my driving key at 24. Maturity, home lifestyle/responsibilities and experience has a lot to do with this.

Do I have regrets, yes and no.

I have always been equally interested in aviation and railways. Perhaps more railways than aviation. So that’s not a problem. Financially I am most likely better off driving. Job security wise I am better off driving. I am at home every night. And I spend my days off work travelling the world (in fact these days I have a dislike for airports and sitting on a plane - I put that down to age!!!) But I will always have that little feeling at the back of my mind… what if I could’ve been a pilot. And that’s the worst. But I just have to tell myself that I must be better off the way things turn out.

The moral of the story. You never know what life throws at you. Have a back up plan, and a few more back up plans for the back up plan. The PPL 100% helped me walk straight off the street to the driving grade on my first attempt at 23. As for the degree (I now have a second one in Railway Ops sponsored by a TOC) - are either very useful, probably not. Do I regret doing either, absolutely not. They have undoubtedly helped me at some point.

Did you find aviation training more professional/demanding than train driver training? Having a flying licence would make no difference now I suspect. Enhanced passes from the OPC would probably count for more.

 

[43066]

My two pence worth.

I started flying at 15, solo by 16 and got my PPL at 18. It was hard working earning £3.36 an hour and paying £130 an hour for flying lessons. Decided to go to uni (did a Master in engineering). And during the rest of my time at uni I built my flying hours up to the magic 150 hours by the time I graduated (I lived at home so could afford that). That was fun as I did all that with friends. After graduation, with an engineering graduate job, but now living in house shares, I was skint. Flying went on hold.

Two years later I was made redundant from the graduate job. I needed a major re think as it was 2010 and the back end of the financial crisis. Saw a Train Driver role and applied. Was accepted no problem at the age of 23. As soon as I started training for the Train Driver role, I also enrolled at Bristol GS. During the 13 month train driver course I also did my ATPL exams. That gave me 3 years to get my IR and CPL licences. I was convinced at this point I could still be a pilot.

I was married by this time though and about 26. Life started to get in the way. I justified some expenditure on flying and got my night rating and started my CPL. But trying to work overtime to afford the flying, shift work and generally convince my wife that spending money on flying was wise became harder and harder and eventually, with time against me I decided to stop. My ATPLs expired a year later and since then I flown perhaps 20 hours or so between the ages of 28 and 31. I’m now 35. I will however fly again as I always dreamt of doing a sea plane rating, but I’m no rush.

On the railways, apart from Train Driving, I’ve tried out being a Driver Manager and working in Ops Standards. Now very happy as a DI, and very appreciative of what I have. Far far far more than I was when I first got my driving key at 24. Maturity, home lifestyle/responsibilities and experience has a lot to do with this.

Do I have regrets, yes and no.

I have always been equally interested in aviation and railways. Perhaps more railways than aviation. So that’s not a problem. Financially I am most likely better off driving. Job security wise I am better off driving. I am at home every night. And I spend my days off work travelling the world (in fact these days I have a dislike for airports and sitting on a plane - I put that down to age!!!) But I will always have that little feeling at the back of my mind… what if I could’ve been a pilot. And that’s the worst. But I just have to tell myself that I must be better off the way things turn out.

The moral of the story. You never know what life throws at you. Have a back up plan, and a few more back up plans for the back up plan. The PPL 100% helped me walk straight off the street to the driving grade on my first attempt at 23. As for the degree (I now have a second one in Railway Ops sponsored by a TOC) - are either very useful, probably not. Do I regret doing either, absolutely not. They have undoubtedly helped me at some point.

What a great post, many thanks for sharing. It’s by no means an uncommon overlap of interests and I’ve met quite a few on the railway with flying experience, at all levels, from PPL up to frozen ATPL.

Out of interest, would you mind expanding on what took you out of the management/ops standards roles and back into the cab (albeit as a DI)?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Sep 2022 ==

Having a flying licence would make no difference now I suspect.

I found having a PPL helpful during the driver recruitment process, as it gave plenty to draw from that was directly relevant to the MMI questions. It was also something interesting to talk about during the DMI! I suspect that’s what @RailExplorer was driving at.

 

[niggill617@gma]

What a great post, many thanks for sharing. It’s by no means an uncommon overlap of interests and I’ve met quite a few on the railway with flying experience, at all levels, from PPL up to frozen ATPL.

Out of interest, would you mind expanding on what took you out of the management/ops standards roles and back into the cab (albeit as a DI)?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Sep 2022 ==



I found having a PPL helpful during the driver recruitment process, as it gave plenty to draw from that was directly relevant to the MMI questions. It was also something interesting to talk about during the DMI! I suspect that’s what @RailExplorer was driving at.

Yes I think you're correct, and agree, what a good post. I look forward to the answers.

 

[RailExplorer]

Pilot training was certainly harder, but not enormously though. The bigger difference was quantity. The amount I had to learn to drive a train was not even comparable to what I had to remember for the ATPLs / PPL. The key word here is “remember”. I spent 6 months home studying for the ATPL exams, then spent 2 weeks at Bristol GS were we basically had to memorise the million questions in the question bank (Even the questionably wrong answers). And then repeat for the second set of modules. There were however a few modules that needed some basic maths knowledge, which the train driver role does not require. A lot of overlaps though, such as both use multiple choice questioning techniques.

The other difference is attitude to learning. When you are paying yourself for something, you are more likely to be more keen and more professional. This is probably a bit of sweeping statement, and obviously not true 100% of the time, but I am sure most could agree with this to some degree.

What I meant by the PPL being helpful was for the interview process of train driving. Every time I needed an example, I immediately stated something to do with flying - be it learning, emergencies, working alone etc. At the age of 23, life experience would otherwise have been a problem.

Driver Management / Ops gave me the deeper knowledge of the driver role that I craved in the first place (that’s what uni does - you are never happy with just knowing the answer - you always want to know “why”). I have always found train driving, (and to a slightly lesser extent flying), and the learning of the role to be “here are the rules, follow them blindly”. Even the simple delay at a red… I will always try to work out what has caused the delay.

These two management roles allowed me to develop my knowledge into underlying principles / reasons etc. for how things are done, why are they done like that, etc. Both were huge eye openers into the industry and train driving in general. But being a DI, I do realise that most drivers aren’t interested in the why, unless they have some interest in the railway industry. And generally I have found more pilots interested in aviation than I have found drivers interested in the railways. There is certainly more passion in the pilot role, and this translates to professionalism.

But as a DI, I certainly do know what management want, and what they don’t want.

 

[Stigy]

Train driving is probably the harder profession to get in to since you'd require a TOC/FOC to recruit you. From what I gather, pilot training is largely based on how much money you have?

 

[niggill617@gma]

Train driving is probably the harder profession to get in to since you'd require a TOC/FOC to recruit you. From what I gather, pilot training is largely based on how much money you have?

Train driving is probably the harder profession to get in to since you'd require a TOC/FOC to recruit you. From what I gather, pilot training is largely based on how much money you have?

Train driving requires as part of the licence, a minimum standard of psychometric test passes. I wonder do airlines put Rupert or Davinia through mandatory aptitude/psychometric tests, upon completion of privately funded flying training, before further type training?

Suppose driver training could be completed privately. Could someone pass the training but fail the psychometric testing?

 

[Stigy]

Train driving requires as part of the licence, a minimum standard of psychometric test passes. I wonder do airlines put Rupert or Davinia through mandatory aptitude/psychometric tests, upon completion of privately funded flying training, before further type training?

Suppose driver training could be completed privately. Could someone pass the training but fail the psychometric testing?

I don’t think psychometric assessments in the form of Driver ones are as important if you’re spending your own money to train, because they generally assess your ability to be trained in a role and if you’re paying for your own training and don’t make the grade, it’s your own money you’re wasting I suppose?

One would assume all airlines still have a method of recruitment which includes an aptitude test or series of tests however.

Even training as a train driver privately, you’d probably find you’d need industry standard psychometric assessment passes in order to get a job.

 

[Ludus]

Train driving requires as part of the licence, a minimum standard of psychometric test passes. I wonder do airlines put Rupert or Davinia through mandatory aptitude/psychometric tests, upon completion of privately funded flying training, before further type training?

Suppose driver training could be completed privately. Could someone pass the training but fail the psychometric testing?

Yes, you are given aptitude tests at any pilot interview. Usually a series of maths/english/aptitude exams followed by sim assessments.

 

[43066]

Yes, you are given aptitude tests at any pilot interview. Usually a series of maths/english/aptitude exams followed by sim assessments.

Not true. At least according to a good friend of mine, who has circa. 7000 hours at the pointy end of big, shiny Boeing jets, and indeed now sits in the left hand seat of a 737.

I’m sure someone on here will soon be along to correct him.

 

[choochoochoo]

Not true. At least according to a good friend of mine, who has circa. 7000 hours at the pointy end of big, shiny Boeing jets, and indeed now sits in the left hand seat of a 737.

I’m sure someone on here will soon be along to correct him.

The friends I know who are also in the LH seat of bug shiny jets also didn't do psychometric aptitude tests. Just popped them in a simulator and saw how they coped.

Do any TOCs do simulator checks for qualified driver recruitment ?

 

[niggill617@gma]

The friends I know who are also in the LH seat of bug shiny jets also didn't do psychometric aptitude tests. Just popped them in a simulator and saw how they coped.

Do any TOCs do simulator checks for qualified driver recruitment ?

If type training has not been completed, how would that work?

 

[choochoochoo]

If type training has not been completed, how would that work?

You get a briefing pack in your application on the basic flight control operation of the aircraft sim you’ll be assessed in and the procedures you’d be expected to follow in given scenarios.

They’re not looking for your technical knowledge on how to operate a specific aircraft, but how you fly (stick and rudder ability) and your crew resource management skills.

 

[niggill617@gma]

I see tha

You get a briefing pack in your application on the basic flight control operation of the aircraft sim you’ll be assessed in and the procedures you’d be expected to follow in given scenarios.

They’re not looking for your technical knowledge on how to operate a specific aircraft, but how you fly (stick and rudder ability) and your crew resource management skills.

I see thanks. Would be a challenge going from piston to turbine I would guess, re spool up/down. Seems a good way of assessing, compared to some of the psychometric tests available. Flying under the hood (pure instruments) for a period of time, keeping to strict parameters is one big psychometric test all rolled up into one.

I remember having ago on a 737-300 with a training captain; after auto throttle take off it was big Cessna mode to some degree.

 

[Economist]

One thing I'd say to the OP is that if you go down the aviation route, make sure you get your Class 1 medical examination booked in the near future. I had no difficulties at all with the train driving medical, however required a GP referral for my Class 2, which I received in due course. A Class 1 examination is very strict and there are a lot of conditions which require further investigation or which will result in an outright denial of the medical certificate.

 

[Mattydo]

I've done both. 15 years in aviation and 12 of them as a cadet then pilot on a fully sponsored programme. Which will narrow down my previous employer for the enthusiasts. I now drive trains.

I love flying, however, airline flying lacks the exhilarating experiences you have when you first start learning, or as simply the holder of a PPL. It can be extremely dull, especially if you spend a lot of time on night turns where the "stunning view" is replaced by blackness. Jet lag is more significant at contributing to fatigue than any normal shift work I have undertaken and, if like me, you were a long haul pilot, the cumulative effects of time zones, time away from home and the 100th room service club sandwich of the year can really knock the shine off flying a 500+ tonne passenger jet.

It was not unusual for me to work 6 days on have a day off then work 5 days and then have 2 days off and repeat forever. Bare minimum scheme until I hit hours limitations. 18 hour flight duty periods across 9 time zones followed by 24 hours off (minus the 5 hour journey to and from the cheapest Marriott the company could find near to JFK), left no time to enjoy the "travel". This was a major luxury flag carrier too.

My point is, the good days are gone and I would advocate short haul operators with fixed work patterns like easyJet over the biggest shiniest airliner.

What I'd advocate even more is train driving, comparable pay levels for drivers and senior First Officers in the UK (and far better than new FO's), better shift regulations, stronger Unions, better pension schemes, more quality time at home and, so far, management that is far more supportive than the ones I worked with at airlines.

Whilst the jobs require very similar non-technical skills the day to day is different. My knowledge base and technical handling skills as a pilot were arguable a lot more demanding, however as a driver I am far more alert for longer periods of time (flying automation allows for far longer periods of low work load than when driving a train where you really can't switch off).

More than this... Finish your degree or get another vocational qualification, if you fly you will quickly discover that the next big retraction is always just around the corner. 9/11, gulf wars, global economic crisis, global pandemic all affected my short career and ended others. I found the cycle of seeing friends being made redundant only to be replaced by new recruits on lesser terms ultimately too stressful (and I always worried I'd be next). When COVID related VR came up I snapped it up and off I went to the railway. Others had their academics to fall back on. Some are 24 months unemployed with no other skills or a lack of youth on their side.

Have a back up.

 

[Efini92]

If you want to be a pilot, join the RAF. You’ll get looked after and all your training will be paid for. Plus when you have finished your commission you will leave with 1000’s of hours flight time.
Then if you don’t like civilian aviation, join the railway.
It’s worth noting if you do become a pilot it will give you opportunities to emigrate, if that was something you think about in the future.

 

[Economist]

The flying schools, especially those offering the integrated route, know how to sell the whole pilot image/lifestyle thing, just look at all the pictures of aviator sunglasses and epaulettes sported by those flying the latest Cessna/Piper/Diamond.

It was not unusual for me to work 6 days on have a day off then work 5 days and then have 2 days off and repeat forever. Bare minimum scheme until I hit hours limitations. 18 hour flight duty periods across 9 time zones followed by 24 hours off (minus the 5 hour journey to and from the cheapest Marriott the company could find near to JFK), left no time to enjoy the "travel". This was a major luxury flag carrier too.

I take it you were in the Middle East for a bit? I hear the work-life balance there is pretty much non-existent. Any airline which uses rostering based on strict seniority bidding can be tough too, especially on those who are junior in both rank and fleet. The USA seems to be where it's at right now, some of the pay deals the regionals received over the past twelve months have been staggeringly good.

If you want to be a pilot, join the RAF. You’ll get looked after and all your training will be paid for. Plus when you have finished your commission you will leave with 1000’s of hours flight time.
Then if you don’t like civilian aviation, join the railway.
It’s worth noting if you do become a pilot it will give you opportunities to emigrate, if that was something you think about in the future.

It's currently 6-8 years from "street to seat" so to speak. During the defence review back in 2010, the RAF/RN made a lot of aircrew redundant and since it's been the case that each generation provides a lot of the instructors to train the subsequent generation, they've been left with a shortage of instructors. The MoD also farmed out aircrew training to the private sector with predictable results, the current system has nowhere near the required capacity. It appears to have affected both the RAF and RN (FAA), I'm not sure about the AAC.