Northen Rail False Fare Evasion Claim HELP PLEASE!!

[farmerboyo]

Hi,
I am in a bit of bother and I am getting pretty worried about it. Basically today I boarded the train to Manchester from my local station, I didnt have a ticket on me and I planned to pay for one on the train. The guard came around and I handed him my debit card with intent to pay for a return ticket but his machine was broken. He told me to buy a ticket at Manchester. I had to change at 'Salford Crescent' to get to 'Oxford Road' which I did with no ticket inspection on board.

Now this is where the problem lies. Once I got to Manchester I went to the ticket booth and told the clerk that I got on at 'Salford Crescent.' This was a mistake because I should have told them that I got on at my local station. I would like to stress now that this wasn't a deliberate mistake just I got mixed up because I had transferred there and was going back to Salford later in the day.

The ticket clerk processed the order and took my money. Once they had handed me my ticket I was taken aside by a man who I guessed worked for 'Northern Rail' who told me he wanted to see my pass from 'Salford Crescent,' when this was happening I realised what had happened and told the man that I had got on at my local station and that I had made a mistake when buying my ticket. I offered to buy a new ticket from my starting point and told him that I was very sorry and I wasn't trying to avoid paying for the full journey.

He said the only course of action was to take my details down in a notepad and submit them to Northern Rail and that I should receive a letter in the near future, asking me to tell them what happened. I didn't have to sign anything just show him my drivers license to validate my address, he also took the ticket that I bought with him.

Does anyone know what happens next and what penalty I will receive?
Will I get a criminal record over this debacle?
What sort of information do I need to tell Northern Rail when this letter comes through?

Any help with this matter would be much appreciated as i'm getting pretty stressed over it!

Thanks
farmerboyo.

 

[northwichcat]

Which station is your local station and which Manchester station did you end your journey at?

 

[farmerboyo]

Hi thanks for your reply, my Local station is 'Burscough Bridge' and the Manchester station was 'Manchester Oxford Road'

Thanks
farmerboyo

 

[Ferret]

Hi,
I am in a bit of bother and I am getting pretty worried about it. Basically today I boarded the train to Manchester from my local station, I didnt have a ticket on me and I planned to pay for one on the train. The guard came around and I handed him my debit card with intent to pay for a return ticket but his machine was broken. He told me to buy a ticket at Manchester. I had to change at 'Salford Crescent' to get to 'Oxford Road' which I did with no ticket inspection on board.

Now this is where the problem lies. Once I got to Manchester I went to the ticket booth and told the clerk that I got on at 'Salford Crescent.' This was a mistake because I should have told them that I got on at my local station. I would like to stress now that this wasn't a deliberate mistake just I got mixed up because I had transferred there and was going back to Salford later in the day.

The ticket clerk processed the order and took my money. Once they had handed me my ticket I was taken aside by a man who I guessed worked for 'Northern Rail' who told me he wanted to see my pass from 'Salford Crescent,' when this was happening I realised what had happened and told the man that I had got on at my local station and that I had made a mistake when buying my ticket. I offered to buy a new ticket from my starting point and told him that I was very sorry and I wasn't trying to avoid paying for the full journey.

He said the only course of action was to take my details down in a notepad and submit them to Northern Rail and that I should receive a letter in the near future, asking me to tell them what happened. I didn't have to sign anything just show him my drivers license to validate my address, he also took the ticket that I bought with him.

Does anyone know what happens next and what penalty I will receive?
Will I get a criminal record over this debacle?
What sort of information do I need to tell Northern Rail when this letter comes through?

Any help with this matter would be much appreciated as i'm getting pretty stressed over it!

Thanks
farmerboyo.

Well, from a revenue protection point of view, you've in effect admitted defrauding the railway company by trying to purchase a ticket from Salford Crescent. I expect Northen will write to you asking for an explanation of events. A user of this forum known as DaveNewcastle will be able to advise you what you should say, but I can tell you that you run a real risk of a conviction for fare evasion under the Regulation of Railways Act.

 

[farmerboyo]

Thanks for your reply and I have contacted DaveNewcastle. What are the consequences of fare evasion under the regulation of railways act? would it make a difference if I told them I am a frequent traveler on their line? Also could I suggest to them that I would like to settle this matter out of court and that I am willing to pay the fine, and the other costs associated with this event?

Cheers
farmerboyo

 

[Ferret]

Thanks for your reply and I have contacted DaveNewcastle. What are the consequences of fare evasion under the regulation of railways act? would it make a difference if I told them I am a frequent traveler on their line? Also could I suggest to them that I would like to settle this matter out of court and that I am willing to pay the fine, and the other costs associated with this event?

Cheers
farmerboyo

Well, it seems that those cases that end up in Court typically cost an individual around 300-400 quid once Court costs and Prosecutors costs are taken into account, on top of the fine you'd receive if/when convicted. My opinion (I'm a railway worker, not a lawyer) is that you'd probably do well to try and keep it out of Court and offer to pay the fare and the admin costs of Northern Rail, and not put yourself in this position again, because any repeat will almost certainly land you in Court! Of course, if you offer to pay the fare and admin costs, I can't guarantee that Northern will accept that - what happens next is very much in their hands. Good luck!

 

[talltim]

while not condoning your wrong ticketing purchasing, did the ticket inspector only know that you had not bought the correct ticket because you told him? I'm a bit confused as to why he wanted to look at your ticket straight after you had bought it?

 

[Ferret]

while not condoning your wrong ticketing purchasing, did the ticket inspector only know that you had not bought the correct ticket because you told him? I'm a bit confused as to why he wanted to look at your ticket straight after you had bought it?

I'm guessing that Salford crescent is barriered, so when the OP bought a ticket from there, the RPI was smelling a rat and quickly challenged the OP.

 

[scotsman]

Did your starting station have a ticket office and/or a working ticket machine?

Why did you say Salford Crescent? As soon as you tried to change it to an earlier station, it made it sound as if you were intending to try and get away without paying the full fare, since Salford Crescent is covered by barriers - anyone who turns up at an excess fare Office intentionally asking for a fare from there is almost certainly at it

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm guessing that Salford crescent is barriered

National Rail says it doesn't have a gate line (see here under accessibility). Of course that doesn't mean there wasn't a manual gate line at the time the OP was travelling.

 

[Ferret]

National Rail says it doesn't have a gate line (see here under accessibility). Of course that doesn't mean there wasn't a manual gate line at the time the OP was travelling.

Scotsman suggests it's barriered, and I'm pretty sure it's a manual barrier by RPIs, rather than physical ticket gates.

 

[northernrail]

Did you check his ID

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm pretty sure it's a manual barrier by RPIs, rather than physical ticket gates.

Yeah thought that might be a possiblilty (hence the second part of my post ). But it's on the wrong side of the Pennines from me so can only go on what NRE says

 

[Ferret]

Yeah thought that might be a possiblilty (hence the second part of my post ). But it's on the wrong side of the Pennines from me so can only go on what NRE says

Lol! I can't remember the last time I went to Salford Crescent, and I don't even sign the road to Manchester so there's no chance of me working a train up there! But, I do know that Man Picc and Vic are infested with hired in RPIs and it wouldn't surprise me for a minute if Salford was the same. And, first question I ask if somebody wants to buy a ticket from a barriered station is 'have you got a ticket *to* Reading (eg) there?'.

 

[Ferret]

If you offered a credit card and can get the railway to admit their machine was broken it's definitely worth a fight.

I'm sorry, but this is abysmal advice. The idea that a broken chip & pin machine somehow rids the OP of his obligation to purchase a ticket is beyond belief.

 

[northwichcat]

National Rail says it doesn't have a gate line (see here under accessibility). Of course that doesn't mean there wasn't a manual gate line at the time the OP was travelling.

Salford Crescent doesn't have barriers but RPI staff can operate at any Northern station (even unstaffed stations on occasions.)

I think what is being referred to here is what someone posted in another thread where Northern hand out special tickets to people boarding at a certain station, so that when people arrive at their destination station without a ticket and claim they've only boarded at the last stop the RPI staff can say "Oh no you didn't."

However, I don't think these special tickets have any place in NRoR so a passenger can just say I threw it in the bin and not be breaching any bye-laws. However, in this case it's obvious that the OP should have bought a Burscough Bridge-Manchester single and a Manchester-Salford single later on but decided to buy a Salford-Manchester return when he/she couldn't buy a ticket on the train.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I'm sorry, but this is abysmal advice. The idea that a broken chip & pin machine somehow rids the OP of his obligation to purchase a ticket is beyond belief.

Don't worry - colpepper has an axe to grind with the railway, and railway staff!

 

[Ferret]

Don't worry - colpepper has an axe to grind with the railway, and railway staff!

Oh, that's plainly obvious. Trouble is, in this case it's not his own money/life that he's playing with. Colpepper's post in this thread adds further credence to my suspicion that he's a blatant troll, who at the very least should be moderated.

 

[colpepper]

Don't worry - colpepper has an axe to grind with the railway, and railway staff!

Hang on, a rail traveller has offered the company money with they refused and as a consequence finds himself without a ticket and I have an axe to grind? Damn right I do if you're talking a conviction for a TOCs mechanical failure. Revenue collectors who talk about convictions in such a case have refused to account for their own equipment. Can an individual sue a TOC if he misses a job interview because a unit breaks down?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Hang on, a rail traveller has offered the company money with they refused and as a consequence finds himself without a ticket and I have an axe to grind? Damn right I do if you're talking a conviction for a TOCs mechanical failure. Revenue collectors who talk about convictions in such a case have refused to account for their own equipment. Can an individual sue a TOC if he misses a job interview because a unit breaks down?

Come on - a TOC is not refusing money if the machine does not work! In fact, since the OP was told to buy a ticket elsewhere proves the fact that the railway was not refusing the purchase.

 

[colpepper]

Colpepper's post in this thread adds further credence to my suspicion that he's a batant troll, who at the very least should be moderated.

I hadn't realised this was RailUK employees and apologists forum or I may not have signed up. My opinions are those of a rail user, not sometime taking the company shilling.

 

[scotsman]

Hang on, a rail traveller has offered the company money with they refused and as a consequence finds himself without a ticket and I have an axe to grind? Damn right I do if you're talking a conviction for a TOCs mechanical failure. Revenue collectors who talk about convictions in such a case have refused to account for their own equipment. Can an individual sue a TOC if he misses a job interview because a unit breaks down?

For heaven's sake! The OP bought a ticket at the first opportunity, but for a station later than where they boarded.
This is (Intentionally or otherwise): Attempting to defraud the railway
and when they tried to change the starting point when taken aside by the RPI it suggested to the RPI that they had boarded at an earlier station but had tried to evade the full fare. In normal circumstances these are impeccable reasons for reporting for presecutuion.

I hadn't realised this was RailUK employees and apologists forum or I may not have signed up. My opinions are those of a rail user, not sometime taking the company shilling.

And therefore you are implying that they are...jobsworths? This is ridiculous, you're not taking the evidence presented to you and throwing around insults because you don't get your way. This is just petty.

 

[yorkie]

Hang on, a rail traveller has offered the company money with they refused and as a consequence finds himself without a ticket and I have an axe to grind?

The green text is fine, the red text should be replaced with: is still required to purchase a ticket (at his destination or on board the next train, or at an interchange station, if appropriate).

Damn right I do if you're talking a conviction for a TOCs mechanical failure.

No, we aren't talking that. We are talking about the failure of the person to purchase a ticket for his entire journey and, instead, purchasing a ticket for a tiny part of that journey.

Revenue collectors who talk about convictions in such a case have refused to account for their own equipment.

Not sure I understand this.

Can an individual sue a TOC if he misses a job interview because a unit breaks down?

I very much doubt they would get very far. But that has nothing to do with the fares matter in question.

 

[Ferret]

I hadn't realised this was RailUK employees and apologists forum or I may not have signed up. My opinions are those of a rail user, not sometime taking the company shilling.

And your 'opinions'/advice is something that could land the OP with a 400 quid fine, and possibly a criminal record if a conviction under the RoR Act is recordable. I may be an employee of the railway, but the OP came on here for constructive advice which I'm in a position to give, given that I'm involved in revenue protection matters, and have knowledge of how the law works on this.

In the eyes of the law, the responsibility fals on the traveller to pay their fare. They can do this before travel, during travel or at their destination (subject to PF areas etc etc). A knackered ticket machine will not make a blind bit of difference to a judge when confronted with the facts of this case - which are that the OP travelled from Burscough Bridge but asked for a ticket from Salford Crescent. Yorkie has evidence of a case where the defendant's lawyer successfully argued that his client had made a mistake. We must balance that against the many many other defences along the same lines which will have been thrown out. As far as I can see, the OP would be better served trying to keep this out of Court and settle with Northern privately.

 

[yorkie]

I hadn't realised this was RailUK employees and apologists forum or I may not have signed up. My opinions are those of a rail user, not sometime taking the company shilling.

This forum has several railway employees (are you saying that is a bad thing?), I am unsure what you mean by "apologists", but people like myself will be happy to advise on what the rules say, give our opinions on those rules, and give advice.

Sometimes the rules are not what the customer wants to hear. Sometimes I may agree with those rules. And, sometimes the advise I give may not be what the customer wants to hear either (in this case it would be: get yourself a good lawyer who is experienced in railway ticketing matters). Does that make me an "apologist"? Call it what you like, but on the other hand, sometimes I will reveal that the customer is right, the rules are in their favour, and they should report the matter to the TOC concerned as the staff acted incorrectly. See the Sevenoaks thread!

Oh, and Ferret isn't anti-customer either. Like Flamingo, you may get the wrong impression if you look at one or two topics in isolation, but if you actually read through their posts, they show discretion and only apply the rules 'to the letter' when people deserve it. I have no problem with this whatsoever. In this case Flamingo may seem 'harsh' but he is just telling it how it is.

No-one is saying the OP is going to be found guilty for sure, but the OP really needs to get some serious legal advice urgently. The OP could also call Northern and try to settle out of court (this is not legal advice and would consult a lawyer first).

 

[colpepper]

I very much doubt they would get very far.

So do I but that's because there's no reciprocity in the contract to travel. I'm not arguing that he offered to pay for a ticket from a later station but there's no proof of intention to defraud and earlier in the journey he offered to pay in full and but for a failure would have done so. Both those things should be taken into account.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This forum has several railway employees (are you saying that is a bad thing?)

Not at all, I am saying that when discussing whether rail travel represents 'good value' or whether anyone debating the customer's perspective is a 'troll', a job with the railway doesn't seem to be an objective or neutral guide. On this case I think the chap is well advised to write all details in full to Northern Rail or whoever the TOC is and state his case before assuming the mantle of convicted criminal a few seem all too ready to give him.

 

[scrapy]

Burscough Bridge has a ticket office which should be open before the first Manchester bound train and there are no signs telling you, you can buy on the train (in fact most Northern stations now have a sign or poster saying you must buy before you board). Unless the ticket office was closed for some reason or a railway official told the OP they could board without a ticket then the OP has committed an offence under railway byelaws. The fact that the conductors credit card machine wasn't working should be irrelevant as the OP should have had a ticket before boarding the train. Whilst there are no penalty fares in Northern, normal conditions of carriage apply.

Salford Crescent has no fixed ticket barrier, however is usually manually barriered by G4S staff on befalf of Northern on weekdays. There is also a ticket window on the platforms where a ticket could have been bought.
Manchester Oxford Rd has automatic barriers and an excess ticket window within the gateline.

Given that the fare from Salford Crescent is around £2 and from Burscough is £7 or £8 dependant on type of ticket, surely the OP must have noticed the fare was too cheap even if they had asked for the wrong ticket by mistake. Had the OP not been challenged, then they would have walked away without paying the correct fare.

It is the passengers responsibility to ensure they have the correct ticket for the journey made. I think the OP would have difficulty persuading a court they did, intent to defraud does not have to be proved.

 

[Ferret]

So do I but that's because there's no reciprocity in the contract to travel. I'm not arguing that he offered to pay for a ticket from a later station but there's no proof of intention to defraud and earlier in the journey he offered to pay in full and but for a failure would have done so. Both those things should be taken into account.

Put another way, the OP couldn't have asked for a ticket from Salford Crescent-Manchester Stns on board a train from Burscough Bridge could he?! So he had little choice but to pay the fare on board the train. At the destination, he should've asked for a single from Burscough Bridge, but didn't! Only he knows why he didn't but most TOCs and Courts are likely to take a dim view of that! The best possible outcome for the OP would be to avoid being prosecuted for his error. Now, I'm aware of a case of season ticket fraud to the tune of four figures which was dealt with out of court. This involved a 'Blue Peter' season ticket (ah, here's one I made earlier!) so this is proof that it is possible to avoid a costly (both in terms of money and employment prospects) conviction. I hope the OP gets the opportunity to learn from his mistake without having to go to Court as that's about the best we can hope for in my opinion.

 

[Clip]

Not at all, I am saying that when discussing whether rail travel represents 'good value' or whether anyone debating the customer's perspective is a 'troll', a job with the railway doesn't seem to be an objective or neutral guide. On this case I think the chap is well advised to write all details in full to Northern Rail or whoever the TOC is and state his case before assuming the mantle of convicted criminal a few seem all too ready to give him.

This thread isnt about the value of fares on the railway. Its someone who has a serious problem on their hands because they have fraudulently bought a ticket that they should not have bought and have now got caught doing so.

If yoru unable to give proper and helpful advice rather then what you did post then you should really stay quite far away from the thread in itself.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I suspect that you were in fact gripped by someone from G4S and not Northern. I have noted that there have been a few more senior/competent looking G4S bodies about at the Manchester Stations recently who have taken to questioning people about things in more detail. On the basis that you didn't sign anything it can't have been a proper RPO as they will be PACE trained and will write a short statement in their notebook at the time and ask you to sign it.

I can't really comment on how Northern work, but in my TOC, someone who is not PACE trained such as a Guard can complete a Travel Irregularity Report to be passed onto the Revenue Team. They will normally consider whether the matter warrants prosecution or "caution and collect". In the former case they will write to you stating the facts as they have been presented to them by whoever, and then ask for your version of events. If this happens it is vitally important that you reply as the statement you give will swing their next course of action and also form the basis of any paperwork going to the court for prosecution. During the process the person who submitted the original TIR would be required to sign an MG11 statement, which is basically the same as a statement given to a police constable - i.e. one that can be given in evidence and must be truthful otherwise they could be prosecuted themselves.

If they decide to "caution and collect" they will probably write saying something stern, and demanding the correct fare is paid plus say a £50 "admin fee", telling you not to do it again otherwise they will prosecute next time. Basically that is just an expensive warning.

Please do bear in mind however, contrary to the advice given by colpepper above, you have technically committed an offence, I suspect under the Regulations of Railways Act 1889. Whether this was intentional or not is a different matter. The fact that on the first train they were unable to collect your payment is irrelevant. When prompted to buy a ticket at the barrier (which in itself isn't a problem, many people do this every day when they come in on busy trains or from unmanned stations) you should have said "Can I have a ticket from X please" not "can I have a ticket from Salford Crescent please", as by doing this you have paid a fare for a shorter journey and not paid the full fare that was due for your journey.

I was on a train once and an RPO boarded in plain clothes to monitor abuse of First Class. A male boarded at an unmanned station and went into the toilet. Where he remained until Manchester Piccadilly. He then got of the train, went up to the barrier, and asked to buy a ticket from Salford Crescent. The RPO watched him buy the ticket and the second the transaction was done he stopped him, cautioned him, and interviewed him about where he had come from, why he was hiding in the toilet, did he have a ticket to cover from X to Salford etc. He was, I believe, prosecuted for fare evasion as he had only paid for part of his journey and had therefore avoided paying for the other part of the journey.