Alcohol Consumption & Working on the railways

[Iskra]

Nowadays, there are quite rightly stringent checks to ensure that those working on the railways are fit for duty. However, historically have there always been rules or regulations regarding the consumption of alcohol on duty? 'Back in the day,' could a driver or fireman enjoy a Pint on their lunch break, or has this always been frowned upon? Obviously, attitudes to alcohol and the workplace have changed massively in the last 30 to 40 years, so I'm not looking to stir a debate on the rights and wrongs of the matter, I'm just seeking to find out whether things were more liberal at some point in history and if so, when things started tightening up? Any factual information or anecdotes around this matter would be interesting to hear

 

[Gloster]

Late 1970s/early 1980s you were not supposed to drink on duty, even in your PNB. If you had an unpaid break it was unclear, but anything more than the odd pint with a meal would be frowned on. (One of the Leading Railmen who did the tickets at one station used to clear of during his unpaid break on a Sunday to the BR Social Club and then spend the rest of his shift dozing in the ticket collectors box.) Generally, I would say that you were expected to show a responsible attitude to drinking, although staff such as traincrew and signalmen were expected to be more careful. However, even then, being clearly drunk, even if not incapable, was seen as a serious matter leading to disciplinary action up to and including dismissal. And there generally wouldn’t be much sympathy from other staff: they were being put in danger. However, I have seen most, if not all, of the management at a major London termini very merry on Christmas Eve.

Basically, if you could hold your drink, acted sensibly and were prudent (as to how much, where and when you drank) it was generally accepted. It was also a much more macho era, both on and off the railway, and drinking was the norm.

 

[alxndr]

It was certainly more acceptable ”back in the day”. Well before my time, but I’ve heard stories of when they’d go out clubbing while on fault cover, and the signal box knowing to call the pub across the road if they needed the S&T. I’ve heard one story of a particularly heavy drinker being found a couple of miles away in the snow, having started walking down the track while on shift and not stopping.

 

[JB_B]

There's some interesting stuff about alcohol in the report on the 1972 Eltham Accident. (From para 40 and, particularly re contemporary attitudes, from para 45 onwards.)

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoE_Eltham1972.pdf

 

[hexagon789]

The Eltham Well Hall Crash in 1972 springs to immediate mind when alcohol and the railways are mentioned together.

 

[contrex]

The Well Hall driver was said by colleagues to be able to 'hold his drink', which, I imagine, means he could consume large amounts without appearing "drunk", but it goes without saying, surely, that even if you aren't staggering, slurring your speech, etc, certain very important functions for a train (or any) driver are likely to be impaired. More recently, a freight driver was electrocuted by the third rail in Kent and alcohol may have played a part.

 

[neilmc]

I remember one incident in Bradford when a lady was in a pub passing some time before her train and watching a man at the bar necking pints. When she got to the station she was appalled to find that he was going to drive her train and she quite rightly kicked up a fuss and had him replaced. Otherwise I suppose he'd have gotten away with it.

 

[Dai Corner]

I've just re-read the Well Hall report and was interested to read in paragraph 129 that over the previous three years 7 drivers had been stopped from booking on due to being under the influence of alcohol, 14 had been caught on duty but not actually driving and 21 had been removed from the footplate. No train accidents had been attributed to drivers drinking.

There were no scientific tests, managers relied on their on judgement to decide whether they were fit for duty. I'd imagine anyone known to able to 'hold his drink' would have been allowed to start or continue duty even if over the legal limits for motorists?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There was a "tavern" in the bowels of Euston station in the 1970's where the licence holder was the Area Manager. The logic being it was not sensible for the public to see uniformed staff drinking in the many local pubs. Attitudes certainly changed vastly , even before the Drug and Alcohol legislation after the Cannon St buffer collision.

"Moderate" drinking was tolerated to an extent - a lunchtime pint then a return to the office, - in order to do a finess check , anyone being challenged was generally seen by 2 people (one to act as a witness , for the often inevitable disciplinary)

Loads of anecdotes available - for example a certain London hostelry had an internal railway phone fitted , so the staff could be summoned if required.

(but then on the continent , it was a bit relaxed back in the day - we had lunch on a fact finding trip to Munich - in the equivalent of Ilford depot. The canteen was excellent and served hearty meals - with beer on draught. Being quite surprised at this , we asked about this and we were advised that only one beer was "allowed".!!!) - meetings at the UIC in Paris always served great sandwich and soup lunches with quality French wines. Any British attendees turned down the wine of course , to the general amusement of some of the other European representatives)

 

[6Gman]

There was certainly a heavy drinking culture among regional HQ staff in my time (70s to early 90s) though it was gradually being discouraged in later years.

Being an abstainer I could find myself pretty much running the place on Friday afternoons!

 

[contrex]

I once read an account in a French newspaper of a freight train in the Bordeaux region having stayed stopped at a danger signal long after it had changed to a proceed aspect. The location was rural so SNCF asked the Gendarmerie to attend. Both driver and secondman were found to be semi conscious and in what the Gendarmes described as une manifeste état d'ivresse (a manifest drunken state). They were promptly arrested.

Another one...

He failed to stop (a loupé son arrêt) at Nevers. Le conducteur était visiblement ivre. As a result, SNCF alerted the emergency services and when he did stop at the next station, the Gendarmes took him off to hospital for an alcohol test.

Un conducteur de train en état d'ivresse loupe son arrêt en gare de Nevers

Le conducteur du train Paris-Clermont, censé desservir la gare de Nevers, a manqué mercredi soir son arrêt en gare. Il était en état d'ivresse.

www.lexpress.fr

There was a report in the 1980s of a diesel-electric loco hauling a train in Egypt having suffered wheel slip so severe a rail was melted nearly through. i saw a photo. Driver comatose through drink. When the railway staff arrived, they found the affected wheels still turning, and glowing dull red.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There was certainly a heavy drinking culture among regional HQ staff in my time (70s to early 90s) though it was gradually being discouraged in later years.

Being an abstainer I could find myself pretty much running the place on Friday afternoons!

Not difficult when certain "Officers Messes" threw in a glass of red wine with every meal. Certain Senior Officers had drinks cupboards - "for customer entertaining of course" .......this was the norm at one time , but certainly out of fashion especially when the sectors came in.

No bad thing in my view - certainly not much work was done on Friday afternoons. (but then most industries were similar in this respect)

 

[341o2]

I know of two incidents in the early 70s, the first involved a conductor guard, who got chatting with some passengers, who included him in a couple of rounds. Dismissed.
The second shows how some people can't hold their drink, the driver of a suburban service found his guard under the influence, but decided to run the train, and let the guard sign off on arrival at the terminus. After a few stops, he gets one bell.
"I'm the guard of this train, I'm in charge, and it doesn't go until I say so"
The driver tried to reason but got nowhere, so he reported the incident.
Another dismissal

 

[The Planner]

There are plenty of tales if you ask, probably embellished, but I have been told a few of second men driving whilst the driver was sleeping off a few. Linked to @ChiefPlanner note of the Euston tavern and some at Paddington.

 

[Dr_Paul]

Back in the 1960s, when I was a kid, our upstairs neighbour was a permanent way ganger on the Underground, based (I think) at Lillie Bridge. He told my dad that he regularly had a few pints at lunchtime and that he sobered himself up by glancing his boot across the conductor rail. Whether the last point is actually true will never be known as he died a long time back and I therefore can't ask him.

When I worked in the Central Office of Information, the newsroom was staffed mainly by old Fleet Street journalists, and they regularly had long liquid lunches in the pub. A non-Fleet Street bloke joined the team and had trouble standing up one afternoon, and the head of department called him in and asked him about his drinking. He replied in a befuddled voice: 'I'm doing my best to keep up with the others.'

 

[Bletchleyite]

I remember one incident in Bradford when a lady was in a pub passing some time before her train and watching a man at the bar necking pints. When she got to the station she was appalled to find that he was going to drive her train and she quite rightly kicked up a fuss and had him replaced. Otherwise I suppose he'd have gotten away with it.

During Oktoberfest one year I took a train from Munich to Salzburg quite late on, and the guard was definitely under the influence.

 

[ComUtoR]

Nowadays, there are quite rightly stringent checks to ensure that those working on the railways are fit for duty.

What checks are those ?

 

[Iskra]

What checks are those ?

The ones that caught out the crew of the Caledonian Sleeper not too long ago…

 

[ComUtoR]

The ones that caught out the crew of the Caledonian Sleeper not too long ago…

Which were ? Do you have a link I could read please ?

 

[Iskra]

Which were ? Do you have a link I could read please ?

Caledonian Sleeper staff quit after reporting for work after drinking

FIVE Caledonian Sleeper staff have resigned after being caught turning up for work after drinking.

www.inverness-courier.co.uk

 

[ComUtoR]

@Iskra

That link only tells me that they were caught. Nothing about what checks are put in place. My TOC has 'caught' a fair few people but there are effectively zero checks.

I could book on totally inebriated tomorrow and nobody would know about it.

 

[D6968]

@Iskra

That link only tells me that they were caught. Nothing about what checks are put in place. My TOC has 'caught' a fair few people but there are effectively zero checks.

I could book on totally inebriated tomorrow and nobody would know about it.

Random drink and drugs tests usually. The link is very similar to a story my mate who works for Eurostar told me, train crew had enjoyed Paris a little too much went to book on are were asked ‘Are you sure?’ (Basically, call in sick, sleep it off, whatever) they booked on and then sacked.

 

[matt_world2004]

There used to be six staff bars on the underground Liverpool Street, baker Street Wembley park ,St James Park , Camden town and one somewhere else. The st James park one was often filled with police officers and LU drivers and there was conflict between them both (Maybe why it closed,)

Back in 2012 , I was in alleycats in Tottenham court road and a lot of crossroad engineers came in and were hammering it. They only stayed for about an hour . So presumed they were on duty although it was very much overnight

 

[Route115?]

Things changed in the late 80s. Prior to that a liquid lunch on Fridays was the norm for HQ staff & we would be invited in for drinks by the boss on Xmas Eve. This changed in I think 1989, there was a major communications exercise which made it clear that drinking for anyone was a sackable event. In later years if you drank during your Xmas lunch you were told not come to back into the office.

 

[Jim Jehosofat]

Back in 1973, when I started working with British Rail, there was a bar on the top floor of Southern House in Croydon.

 

[Iskra]

@Iskra

That link only tells me that they were caught. Nothing about what checks are put in place. My TOC has 'caught' a fair few people but there are effectively zero checks.

I could book on totally inebriated tomorrow and nobody would know about it.

Clearly there is a tip-off based system of checks. It's not a very robust system, but it is a system nonetheless.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Nowadays, there are quite rightly stringent checks to ensure that those working on the railways are fit for duty. However, historically have there always been rules or regulations regarding the consumption of alcohol on duty? 'Back in the day,' could a driver or fireman enjoy a Pint on their lunch break, or has this always been frowned upon? Obviously, attitudes to alcohol and the workplace have changed massively in the last 30 to 40 years, so I'm not looking to stir a debate on the rights and wrongs of the matter, I'm just seeking to find out whether things were more liberal at some point in history and if so, when things started tightening up? Any factual information or anecdotes around this matter would be interesting to hear

50+ years ago I was in pub - Tetley pub bottom of Lune St, Preston - on Friday and Saturday evenings where footplate staff would knock back a few pints then wander back to work. Different times with weaker beer and slow trains.

 

[farleigh]

In 1988 I had a summer job working on the P way. We were subcontractors and I had got the job through friend of a friend. My job was to paint the piles that had been put there. Working on the Medway Valley Line, every lunchtime involved 3-4 pints in the pub next to the station we were at. I was 15 at the time.

The paint is still good though.

 

[43096]

The Well Hall driver was said by colleagues to be able to 'hold his drink', which, I imagine, means he could consume large amounts with appearing "drunk", but it goes without saying, surely, that even if you aren't staggering, slurring your speech, etc, certain very important functions for a train (or any) driver are likely to be impaired. More recently, a freight driver was electrocuted by the third rail in Kent and alcohol may have played a part.

There was also the 1984 Morpeth sleeper derailment which also involved a driver who had been drinking.

 

[Taunton]

I remember in the 1960s a bus conductor (not driver) was fired in Taunton (where the bus crews, for historic reasons, were NUR members) for going into a pub mid-shift at the terminus, in uniform, and having a pint. Town thought it was rather harsh.

But end of shift, yes. I've written here before about how the best 1970s Edinburgh-Glasgow run of the day in the 2x27 push-pull era was said to be the 2100 from Edinburgh, nonstop from Haymarket to Glasgow, an Eastfield crew who handed over and booked off at Glasgow Queen Street on arrival, scheduled 2143, in the days when Scottish pubs all very firmly closed the bar at 2200!

And going back to Taunton, I recall that when the pw were working on a hot summer Sunday, with a works train in the section, the gang at lunchtime would all board the brake vans and set off within the possession to a station where there was a pub adjacent for a 'refreshment', returning afterwards.