Serco Caledonian Sleeper contract will NOT be extended

[LNW-GW Joint]

Nationalisation, or integration with Scotrail, is not necessarily a done deal.

This is the Guardian's take: https://www.theguardian.com/busines...ice-renationalisation-serco-caledonian-trains

In a parliamentary answer, Scotland’s transport minister, Jenny Gilruth, told MSPs that Serco’s attempt to “rebase” the 15-year franchise agreement had been “rejected on the grounds of not representing value for money to the public”, and that Scottish government ministers had served notice to terminate the contract with the outsource firm on 25 June next year.
Gilruth said work was under way to determine who would run the operation after that, adding that Serco had “broadly, delivered well and significantly improved Caledonian Sleeper services over the last seven years”.
Existing UK rail legislation means the government cannot simply renationalise the franchise, although a state operator of last resort could step in if a bidding competition does not find a new franchisee.
The SNP said it was an opportunity to bring the Caledonian Sleeper into public hands, as it did with Scotrail in April.

 

[IKB]

Financial viability presumably being shorthand for massive cross subsidy.

Tbf that was the same with Intercity and Regional Railways wasn't it ?

I haven't used CS since they got the new carriages and they stopped staff being able to enter the PRIV code on the website.

Public fares are a tad on the steep side. Did they go up when they got the new coaches, or am I imagining it?

 

[norbitonflyer]

There could also be other options, like switching to a West Coast and East Coast train. West train would run into Glasgow Central, then take a portion onto Fort William. East train would run to Edinburgh, dropping a portion there with a portion continuing to Inverness with a call (no coaches dropped) at Aberdeen.

That would make little saving
- No reduction in train miles - still two Anglo Scottish trains every night
- Either requires separate depots at the London end, or complex ECS moves from Wembley to Kings Cross
- No platform at Kings Cross can take 16 coach trains (probably no more than ten + two locos). Nor can Glasgow Central
- complex shunting at Glasgow to reach the West Highland Line
- Inconveneintly early arrivals in Edinburgh and Glasgow, and/or late ones in Inverness/Fort Bill. And vice versa in the other direction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The main useful simplification to me is to remove the Aberdeen portion, meaning each is just two half-sets going to two destinations. It's the lowest loading part these days and it adds extra shunting as well as the need to move people and bikes between coaches at Edinburgh at 4am. It's also far nearer Edinburgh than Inverness or FW are, thus a connection off the 20xx HST into the Edinburgh Lowlander is likely to work fine, as is a connection in the morning.

Post HS2 I'd expect the Lowlander to go entirely, but not until then.

The main savings to be made are in merging things like customer services, websites, lounges, drivers/guards within Scotland etc.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Does anybody know if/when Sleepers stopped being profitable (if ever) under BR?

My feeling is that overnight services including night riders became less attractive as daytime services improved. I expect flights and airport availability has improved also.

You only have to look at the huge shake ups especially after the mk3s where built/being built & how the concentration of the Anglo-Scottish route was centred entirely on Euston.

Yes these would have cost money (inevitable) and lead to a review of what was worth running.

Very much my experience on the West Highland and Lowlander over the 30 years up to 2019. The Glasgow section of the Lowlander seemed to lose loads of trade when the WCML modernisation was complete.
For me personally the modernisation meant that for the first time there was a daytime connection right through to the south coast off the lunchtime departure from Fort William or about a 14.00 departure from Helensburgh which made the southbound sleeper a lot less attractive.
I doubt the lowlander would survive the introduction of improved services via HS2.
Most important question for me is if Scotrail take over the sleeper will the lounge car become alcohol free?

Good example.

The main useful simplification to me is to remove the Aberdeen portion, meaning each is just two half-sets going to two destinations. It's the lowest loading part these days and it adds extra shunting as well as the need to move people and bikes between coaches at Edinburgh at 4am. It's also far nearer Edinburgh than Inverness or FW are, thus a connection off the 20xx HST into the Edinburgh Lowlander is likely to work fine, as is a connection in the morning.

Post HS2 I'd expect the Lowlander to go entirely, but not until then.

The main savings to be made are in merging things like customer services, websites, lounges, drivers/guards within Scotland etc.

You are right - dropping the Aberdeen portion would also save a few movements of the Mk5s that turn the FW (?) portion into a proper set (including from/to Polmadie ?). A lot less shunting I guess ?.

But the curious in me wonders if dropping the Aberdeen portion undermines any potential non-tourist part of the justification for CS ?. Or am I overlooking Aberdeen's tourist credentials ?.

 

[irish_rail]

They don't have the luxury of being able to use crews from the "daytime fleet" which must count against the Scottish sleepers. At least over on the night riviera it uses pre existing crews to drive and conduct it.

 

[Class 170101]

I can see a few changes being made to streamline it though. One possibility is to bin off the Highlander completely and just focus on the Edinburgh/Glasgow train. There could also be other options, like switching to a West Coast and East Coast train. West train would run into Glasgow Central, then take a portion onto Fort William. East train would run to Edinburgh, dropping a portion there with a portion continuing to Inverness with a call (no coaches dropped) at Aberdeen.

No way NR would open up the East Coast and leave the West Coast open as well. It will be one or the other. Engineering time matters to NR, arguably to the deteriment of passengers.

 

[Davester50]

Retain the 73/9s as ETHEL 2.0 and then use other traction on the front of those. Works for the 66s providing the grunt at the moment.

Putting up the costs significantly.

 

[duncanp]

This article in The Telegraph gives some more detail

London to Scotland Caledonian Sleeper to be nationalised by Nicola Sturgeon

Scottish government to end Serco contract seven years early

www.telegraph.co.uk

Interesting that the article mentions "..more private sector failure on Scotlands railways is not an option..."

So the publicy owned Scotrail is doing OK is it, or is public sector failure acceptable whilst private sector failure is not?

London to Scotland Caledonian Sleeper to be nationalised by Nicola Sturgeon​

Scottish government to end Serco contract seven years early

Nicola Sturgeon is to seize control of the Caledonian Sleeper, paving the way for the nationalisation of the train service that runs from the Scottish Highlands to London.

The Scottish government said that it would take over the line in June 2023, ending a contract with Serco seven years early. Ministers claimed services on the Caledonian Sleeper would be improved by being brought into public ownership.

Jenny Gilruth, Scotland’s transport minister said that she had served notice on Serco to terminate its contract on June 25 next year.

An attempt by Serco to renegotiate its contract had been “rejected on the grounds of not representing value for money to the public”, Ms Gilruth said.

The ousting of Serco came despite the SNP member of the Scottish parliament admitting that the company had “broadly, delivered well and significantly improved Caledonian Sleeper services over the last seven years”.

The Caledonian Sleeper has been operating in various forms since 1873, running overnight services from London to Scotland

Ms Sturgeon has already nationalised ScotRail after kicking Dutch firm Abellio off the railways north of the border earlier this year.

Fiona Hyslop, the cabinet secretary for culture, tourism and external affairs, said the Caledonian Sleeper decision “presents another opportunity to bring Scotland’s railways into Scotland’s hands”.

She added: “It is unfortunate that a deal has not been reached to continue the contract with Serco, but these contracts need to deliver value for money for the Scottish public.

“The Scottish government has already successfully brought ScotRail under public ownership and doing the same with the Caledonian Sleeper presents an opportunity to continue to improve the service provided to those travelling overnight between Edinburgh and London.”

Ms Sturgeon has frozen fares across Scotland’s railways while also caving into trade union pressure over pay rise demands since ScotRail was nationalised this spring.

Serco has run the London to Scotland service since 2015. Like many other services across the country, a subsidy payment to Serco was required to balance the books on the line.

Union leaders urged Ms Sturgeon to confirm that the operation of the Caledonian Sleeper would not return to private hands.

Manuel Cortes, general secretary of the TSSA, said: “This decision is welcome, but we need a copper-bottomed guarantee that the Sleeper service will return to public hands for the long term, after what looks like an attempt by Serco to squeeze yet more from the taxpayer.

“The Scottish government seems to have left the door open to the return of Serco or other privateers, it should be slammed firmly in their faces.

“More private sector failure on Scotland’s railways is not an option. Our railways must be run in the interests of passengers, not profit.”

 

[Wynd]

There is no way Aberdeen is getting dropped without serious backlash.

We are trying to grow rail travel up here, not diminish it further. It’s already miles off where it needs to be.

 

[JamieL]

I doubt the lowlander would survive the introduction of improved services via HS2

Will HS2 deliver much benefit for Scotland now the Golborne link has been cancelled? No tilting trains will presumably mean slower trains on the Northern half of the journey.

 

[Blindtraveler]

On the face of it this announcement reverses a political decision from 2015 that was certainly much criticised by us and and other people in the know and may well have attracted equal criticism in political circles. On the other hand of course they could be about to announce a a high-speed re-tendering exercise with bids opened in a couple of weeks and closed by Christmas with an award in late January giving 6-months for a new operation or indeed the existing one to take over on for example the 1st of July 23. I've already made my feelings clear in the future and speculation thread but what if this is a nationalising and bringing back in house exercise and it's managed as well as the existing SNP Rail outfit has been in my opinion then the future is not bright


On the other hand I am a realest and can see why they might have wanted to put the brakes on costs of this service s&a and find some efficiencies which they will no doubt manage, especially if the wider ScotRail operation takes the hit every time I'm they have to refund an entire train of high paid tourists

 

[WizCastro197]

Do the sleeper coaches need to be re painted into ScotRail livery? Can't it remain as a sub-brand with own branding etc with a small note that it explains it is owned and operated by ScotRail?

 

[Class 466]

Tbf that was the same with Intercity and Regional Railways wasn't it ?

I haven't used CS since they got the new carriages and they stopped staff being able to enter the PRIV code on the website.

Public fares are a tad on the steep side. Did they go up when they got the new coaches, or am I imagining it?

You can book tickets on RST Online.

 

[Trainfan2019]

Do Caledonian Sleeper tickets count towards station usage figures? Just wondered with it being sort of a premium overnight service if it was treated separately to daytime travel?

 

[dciuk]

Does the Night Riviera make any money?
What does it do differently to CS?

It is not run by a separate company to the day time services and my understanding is it normally runs with very few empty berths. I am not sure how that compares with the CS

 

[zwk500]

No way NR would open up the East Coast and leave the West Coast open as well. It will be one or the other. Engineering time matters to NR, arguably to the deteriment of passengers.

'East Coast' as in serving stations on the east coast of Scotland. The train itself would still be routed via the WCML in normal running.

There is no way Aberdeen is getting dropped without serious backlash.

We are trying to grow rail travel up here, not diminish it further. It’s already miles off where it needs to be.

The numbers involved in CS won't be noticed in the passenger numbers/carbon emissions statistics and debates.

Do the sleeper coaches need to be re painted into ScotRail livery? Can't it remain as a sub-brand with own branding etc with a small note that it explains it is owned and operated by ScotRail?

It's certainly possible to maintain it as a sub-brand if Scotrail want to. IIRC FGW kept the 'Night Riviera' branding, not sure if GWR did.

 

[fgwrich]

The impression I got is that cost-cutting and economy measures are to be employed, so expect worse catering offerings if indeed at all.

I really hope not, though sadly it wouldn't surprise me if some cost cutting is bought in. The food is excellent.

The seating is usually around the £50-£70 mark, which is well in line with daytime seated fares.

The sleeper berths are usually around the £200-£250 mark up to about £400 for the deluxe berths, but that includes travel. Compared to mid-range chain hotels, which will cost you upwards £200 a night in London, that's not so bad.

The sleeper isn't a budget option, but that doesn't mean it's bad value.

I suspect it being January may be ameliorating those prices. I paid £360 for two in August. However you split it, it isn't particularly competitive or alluring.

Just pointing out here, it isn't just London where there are expensive hotels. I had to do a trip up to Edinburgh towards the tail end of last month, and two nights stay in a Premier Inn there cost just under £400. I stayed in the city during August for a few nights and paid close to £600. Inverness has recently become similar expensive (£180 a night in August), Fort William - Forget it, hotels around there seem to book up quite quickly these days, only Glasgow and Aberdeen seem to remain fairly cheap these days.

Tomorrow (first pic) & today (second), cheapest walk-up fares with the sleeper.

If fares like the first one appear more often (£70 for a seat), that’s a lot more lucrative compared to the £150~ walk-up fare of an Avanti train in the morning, but 95% of the time the CS is already sold out (as seen by trains for tomorrow)

On my recent work trip up, I took the seated part (not something I'll be doing again purely for those seats). However, the seated part was I would say at least 85% fully booked - good numbers for a Tuesday night!

My main two hopes with this merger - Railcard Fares are bought back in, and Bargain Berths make a return.

 

[Bald Rick]

Does anybody know if/when Sleepers stopped being profitable (if ever) under BR?

difficult to say. The Profit Centre reorg (OfQ) in 1992 brought the economics into sharp focus with much clearer cost allocation. They certainly weren’t profitable then, albeit even at that point there was no specific costing of many the resources required to operate it - the rolling stock was ’free’, most of the traction came from a common pool, no track access charges (well not in today’s sense) etc.

However I suspect the economics took a turn for the worse when the paper traffic and parcels traffic died off in the 80s; coincident with further improvements in domestic aviation, the motorway network, and the hotel network. Fewer overnight trains to share resources with, and the competition got much better.

Acknowledging that this is a rail forum, but in the real world the vast majority of people travelling between London and Scotland will prefer day travel + hotel, even if the sleeper was free*, which of course it isn’t.

*the sleeper is free for me, and I prefer day travel and hotel every time. I only use the sleeper if timings for day travel simply don’t work for whatever appointments / activities I have in hand.

The first call is to ensure all seats are sold. Empty seats = lost revenue

Unless the seats have been sold and the passenger hasn’t turned up, which happens more than you might think.

I can see a few changes being made to streamline it though. One possibility is to bin off the Highlander completely and just focus on the Edinburgh/Glasgow train. There could also be other options, like switching to a West Coast and East Coast train. West train would run into Glasgow Central, then take a portion onto Fort William. East train would run to Edinburgh, dropping a portion there with a portion continuing to Inverness with a call (no coaches dropped) at Aberdeen.

No chance. If anything goes it will be the Glasgow.

No way NR would open up the East Coast and leave the West Coast open as well. It will be one or the other. Engineering time matters to NR, arguably to the deteriment of passengers.

They are, usually, both open overnight (except Saturdays).

Do Caledonian Sleeper tickets count towards station usage figures? Just wondered with it being sort of a premium overnight service if it was treated separately to daytime travel?

Yes. But given that the whole Caledonian sleeper operation has fewer passengers than Severn Beach (Pre Covid), it barely makes a dent in them.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Or saving money by not paying for two lots of management?

Moving the sleeper out of Scotrail never made any sense.

Agreed.

 

[185]

So after Sleeper is err... terminated, have Serco only got (half of) Merseyrail left? No other franchises?

 

[riceuten]

The same way they can justify subsidising basket cases like the Far North Line - it is just too political to fiddle with it.

"Basket cases" ?

No loaded terms there, eh ?

 

[dk1]

There is no way Aberdeen is getting dropped without serious backlash.

We are trying to grow rail travel up here, not diminish it further. It’s already miles off where it needs to be.

It never will. Money will be no object for such vital & politically important rail night routes.

 

[PG]

Cracking opportunity to get the Aberdeen portion started from Fraserburgh/Peterhead when they re-open.

Realistically we could go through two monarchs before that even becomes a possibility.

really could benefit from being under Scotrails structure (or even Avanti).

Scotrail - Yes, Avanti - no way José!

Most important question for me is if Scotrail take over the sleeper will the lounge car become alcohol free?

They'd be shooting themselves in the foot.

Interesting that the article mentions "..more private sector failure on Scotlands railways is not an option..."

More interesting is the minister mentioning "...travelling overnight between Edinburgh and London.”
No mention of Aberdeen, Fort William, Glasgow or Inverness!

 

[Stathern Jc]

Cracking opportunity to get the Aberdeen portion started from Fraserburgh/Peterhead when they re-open.

Once upon a time someone would have suggested putting a couple of fish vans on too!

 

[Cloud Strife]

only Glasgow and Aberdeen seem to remain fairly cheap these days.

Aberdeen has too much hotel accommodation these days, a legacy of the glory days of North Sea oil and gas.

As for Aberdeen being dropped, it won't happen. The SNP are not going to risk the backlash in Aberdeen, especially given that the local rags are very much against independence. Don't forget that Aberdeen is also a lifeline service, as people from Orkney and Shetland can get to London with just the one easy change without flying.

I think one thing that a lot of people forget is that it's genuinely a long way from Aberdeen to London, and Aberdeen is the northernmost city of any decent size in the UK. The metropolitan area is around half a million people, so it's not a small city.

 

[Statto]

I know Scotrail have their own issues, but i always thought it was a mistake separating the sleeper franchise from the Scotrail franchise, the sleeper was never going to make money as a separate franchise.

 

[king_walnut]

How would the logistics of this work? Would the GBRf drivers still do it?

 

[swaldman]

A few points on this,

• Back in the Scotrail days, the sleeper provided a really useful link for people who lived in the Highlands to be able to connect to London in sensible time without flying. That, IMHO, was the reason it was worth subsidy - not rich summer tourists (now, few Scots can afford it)
• Bargin berths aside, the problem with Serco's pricing isn't the prices per se - although they did dramatically increase from Scotrail - but the per-cabin pricing, so that for a person travelling alone the price is effectively doubled. For two people travelling together there is much less difference. Last time I tried to use the sleeper, while I was living in Aberdeen, a return to London booked five months ahead was over £400. Obviously I didn't take it.
• I would absolutely favour some sort of pod or couchette option. It needs something that offers a flat bed but is more economical to run than full "sleeper" cabins. I don't really understand the objection to fore-and-aft bunks. I know the reasoning that is given, but buses do it, American trains do it, and in terms of quantitative risk I imagine that an overnight trip in a fore-and-aft bunk must be less dangerous than crossing the road a few times...
• IMHO this sleeper service will be safe for the forseeable future, because it's a favoured method for Scottish MPs to travel to/from their constituencies. But they do it on expenses, so they don't care about the prices.

 

[Yew]

The government!

Hopefully more value for money for both, the fares are extortionate, I can’t find anything cheaper than £150~ for a berth

For comparison, I was recently looking at tickets on the French sleepers, and had London-Briançon (including a Eurostar ticket) for around £80.

• I would absolutely favour some sort of pod or couchette option.

For a while, individual pods like a Japanese hotel has seemed like an obvious solution to me.