Caledonian Sleeper: How should it be run and what changes would you like to see?

[HSTEd]

What we really need is an 800m platform or something so one Class 92 could haul the entire lot in one go, but I don't think we are likely to get one.

And with the platform height problems and access connections not being added, I doubt HS2's platforms at Euston will be available. That would at least eliminate the need to attach extra carriages mid journey.

Sleepers relocate to Gloucester anyone?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Some people seem to think the sleeper should be more upmarket. some seem to want to go downmarket.

No reason why we cant do both. You could easily add one luxury carriage, and one couchette carriage at the other end to attract the budget traveller!

Euston is limited to 16 coaches. Would have to replace some coaches rather than adding. Of course they can run one 16 coach service as two 8 coach trains BUT that doubles the motive power and driver requirement. So you would need to then fill as many as 8 new coaches with couchette/nightrider customers for each of Glasgow, Edinburgh, Inverness and Fort William/Aberdeen. These extra coaches would I assume HAVE to behave like the existing Mk5 sets so could not be made of out of converted spare Mk3s ets etc. But I do not think anyone is going to invest large sums on this.

Couldn't the whole thing be simplified to do away with split portions/shunting etc?

Just run a train Inverness - Aberdeen - Dundee - Perth - London and another Glasgow - Edinburgh (reverse) - London and forget Fort William.

That would at least bring the costs down.

Not sure on platform capacity at the Northern reaches. Which would also spoil the brainstorming I uttered just above.

There is (allegedly) already a luxury compartment at least - the double bedded one. But yes, you can indeed have multiple options for accommodation, just like the Euro sleepers do.

On the other hand, if this is all about cost-cutting, they won't be refurbishing the stock, so it's all about savings that can be made in terms of backoffice duplication and potentially the operating model.

I think that is at least the first port of call. Better for Scotral to handle the CS operation as any service problems in Scotland go on right under their nose anyway.

If you wanted to really simplify it without losing too much, you could order new bimode locomotives, shorten the portions slightly, bin the Aberdeen (replaced by a guaranteed connection from an HST) and have some coaches converted to driving trailers and run it more like a MU so the traincrews could handle the shunting which would be no more complex than coupling or uncoupling DMUs and EMUs which is done all over the UK by traincrews without dedicated shunting staff.

But again I don't think this sort of thing is likely to be on the agenda as it costs money.

I remain surprised that when it was refreshed they didn't go for a multiple unit style operation, even if locomotives were used because DMU racket would be unacceptable for sleeping coaches.

But as some have pointed out running Inverness via Aberdeen etc isn't good because you miss out high tourist demand places like Aviemore.

My bold. True the trains are behaving as multiple units. Two 8 coach units for the main bit op/down the WCML. That is why the Fort William has to gain a control coach (also gets a seated coach). They just do not have cabs - tantalisingly.

It's an indication of just how useless our railways have become that the idea of carrying fish (and other seafood) traffic by rail is regarded as utterly mad and whimsical.

Huge amounts of this stuff is carried daily from the north of Scotland to markets in London and the south - why shouldn't a properly managed railway be carrying a share of this valuable traffic in modern reefer wagons and/or containers, attached to sleeper trains or otherwise?

I think it is an indication of how improved the roads are unfortunately. Maybe air as well.

What I can absolutely see a case for (and it'd cost £0) is swapping over the Aberdeen and the FW in terms of which has the separate lounge and seated coach. There's a potential demand for taking mountain bikers to the FW area as has been said, there's much less of one to Aberdeen, but they're not going to be interested if they have to be woken at 4am to move their stuff. The FW seated coach would likely also be more popular without the 4am shuffle.

Yes the 4 am shuffle from one seated coach to another is an awful feature. Be interesting to see which of Aberdeen and Fort William would support that coach better.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes the 4 am shuffle from one seated coach to another is an awful feature.

Worse is the 4am shuffle of bikes if you've paid for a sleeper and are actually asleep! It can be a welcome stretch of legs in the seats (a bit like a road coach stopping at services in the night as they sometimes do, and if the driver is having a legal break everyone has to get off). But either way it's not ideal.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Worse is the 4am shuffle of bikes if you've paid for a sleeper and are actually asleep! It can be a welcome stretch of legs in the seats (a bit like a road coach stopping at services in the night as they sometimes do, and if the driver is having a legal break everyone has to get off). But either way it's not ideal.

Ouch, I had forgotten the bikes (and other bulky luggage ?).

 

[JonathanH]

Yes the 4 am shuffle from one seated coach to another is an awful feature.

At least with Fort William, there is the chance to get back to sleep. Aberdeen would be much more difficult with an arrival only a few hours later.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At least with Fort William, there is the chance to get back to sleep. Aberdeen would be much more difficult with an arrival only a few hours later.

I think the only sleep I've really had on the FW seats was indeed after Edinburgh when I'd got a table bay to myself and managed it slumped over the table.

With Aberdeen I think it's more that it's viable to choose the Lowlander and a day train instead (or just the LNER day service) because it's only about 2h15 from Edinburgh or Glasgow, the others are almost twice as long. You couldn't remove the day coach as it's also the guard's van and control kit for the train (stupid design*) but it is less important in the context.

OK, you'd not arrive so early (about 1000 if they guaranteed the connection onto the 0730 off Waverley), but is getting to Aberdeen for 7am an advantage? Everything's still shut. It's not like London where the 7:30am arrival with time for a shower and breakfast is advantageous in terms of the larger amount of business traffic going that way.

* Why on earth the CAF LHCS doesn't follow UIC principles of each vehicle being self-contained I have no idea. They have all the disadvantages (other than engine noise) of both LHCS and MUs.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Does the Inverness need as many sleepers, so a seated car could be attached all the way through from Fort William at the cost of 1 Inverness sleeper for the 16 that arrive at Euston?
I feel the Aberdeen portion (which I use the most) is one sleeper car too few, but from reading the treads over time, I (perhaps mistakenly) understand that the diagramming requires the 2/4 split.

Problem is the sleeper runs in 8 (maximum) coach sets, two sets together on the WCML. So to add a FortWilliam coach means you have to rob a coach from the SAME 8 car set and the FW is shared with Aberdeen. Inverness gets its own (upto) 8 car set as do Edinburgh and Glasgow. So the constraint is Fort Willam and Aberdeen together cannot exceed 8 coaches for their trips South of Edinburgh. ALSO Each set has to have a control coach so one control coach is added (along with the seated coach) just for the part of the journey beyond where the Aberdeen part peels off (at Edinburgh). This means all the Southbound Highlander portions have to arrive at Edinburgh in the right order and the right way round. What, no flexibility I hear you say ?.

 

[JonathanH]

I think the only sleep I've really had on the FW seats was indeed after Edinburgh when I'd got a table bay to myself and managed it slumped over the table.

The problem with all of this is that everyone seems to judge what they think the sleeper should be by their own standards. If you haven't had a lot of practice sleeping sat up you will find it more difficult to get to sleep. If you have had practice and know some tricks you won't mind it. It is particularly unfortunate that the seats don't recline very much. If they did, and I had proper lumbar support, an eye mask and a neck pillow, I reckon I can get some sort of sleep. Others may not think that.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I think the only sleep I've really had on the FW seats was indeed after Edinburgh when I'd got a table bay to myself and managed it slumped over the table.

With Aberdeen I think it's more that it's viable to choose the Lowlander and a day train instead (or just the LNER day service) because it's only about 2h15 from Edinburgh or Glasgow, the others are almost twice as long. You couldn't remove the day coach as it's also the guard's van and control kit for the train (stupid design*) but it is less important in the context.

OK, you'd not arrive so early (about 1000 if they guaranteed the connection onto the 0730 off Waverley), but is getting to Aberdeen for 7am an advantage? Everything's still shut. It's not like London where the 7:30am arrival with time for a shower and breakfast is advantageous in terms of the larger amount of business traffic going that way.

* Why on earth the CAF LHCS doesn't follow UIC principles of each vehicle being self-contained I have no idea. They have all the disadvantages (other than engine noise) of both LHCS and MUs.

Is that how long it takes the alcohol to kick in .

More seriously could you dare fall asleep before the risk of ending up going the wrong way is over.

Yes there seems to be a lot of restriction on flexibility built in.

The problem with all of this is that everyone seems to judge what they think the sleeper should be by their own standards. If you haven't had a lot of practice sleeping sat up you will find it more difficult to get to sleep. If you have had practice and know some tricks you won't mind it. It is particularly unfortunate that the seats don't recline very much. If they did, and I had proper lumbar support, an eye mask and a neck pillow, I reckon I can get some sort of sleep. Others may not think that.

A recipe for disaster trying to cover too many bases.

Your right, depends on what you are used to. For me I used to sleep SOLIDLY for 9 hours on 12 hour flights. Years of commuting taught me to sleep on trains and a reclining seat just makes it easier. Window seat, pillow shoved between headrest and the planes body and lie slightly sideways. Get woken up by flight attendant for my breakfast. Apparently signs of pulse often checked for. Now I know about Deep Vein Thrombosis I realise I am not so clever - regular movement (to keep circulation going) are essential.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that how long it takes the alcohol to kick in .

Interestingly alcohol stops me sleeping (unless I have so much that I pass out rather than falling asleep).

 

[Peter Sarf]

Interestingly alcohol stops me sleeping (unless I have so much that I pass out rather than falling asleep).

I think you may well be right.

 

[work-traveller]

Perhaps there's an opportunity for the (minority of) surly Caledonian Sleeper staff to undertake short-term secondments on the Night Riviera and see what less surly customer service looks/feels like.

 

[Wynd]

ed railway be carrying a share of this valuable traffic in modern reefer wagons and/or c

What I can absolutely see a case for (and it'd cost £0) is swapping over the Aberdeen and the FW in terms of which has the separate lounge and seated coach. There's a potential demand for taking mountain bikers to the FW area as has been said, there's much less of one to Aberdeen, but they're not going to be interested if they have to be woken at 4am to move their stuff. The FW seated coach would likely also be more popular without the 4am shuffle.

The MTB offering in Aberdeenshire is at the beginning of a pretty serious boom. Those who are commenting on the city and shire, I hope, are well informed of what is going on up here.

There is no reason why rail shouldn't take more of the freight market. That is one of the underlying arguments for putting Fraserburgh and Peterhead back on the network. There is huge freight potential.

The sleeper is a vitally important connection for Aberdeen. There is little to no justification beyond pure financial reasons, to cut Scotland's 3rd city from the network.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In Aberdeenshire or in Aberdeen? No use at all if the onward transport is non-bike-carrying buses...

FW is different, it's actually where the activity is.

(People won't ride MTBs a long way. They're not road bikes)

 

[Nicks]

Buy back (or swop for the current stock!) all the Mark 3s sleepers that were not scrapped and run a decent budget operation with them.

 

[HSTEd]

Buy back (or swop for the current stock!) all the Mark 3s sleepers that were not scrapped and run a decent budget operation with them.

It would be no cheaper, because the majority of the operation's cost base is not tied to the stock.

The major limitation is the physical limitation of train lengths in Euston, Glasgow, Edinburgh etc and the complex shunting that is forced by that. All that leads to a huge crew requirement for a small number of carried passengers.

EDIT:

People have mentioned that the Aberdeen Portion can't be extended to Inverness because of the desire to serve Aviemore et al..... what about doing the opposite?

Extend the Inverness portion to Aberdeen?

 

[JonathanH]

Buy back (or swop for the current stock!) all the Mark 3s sleepers that were not scrapped and run a decent budget operation with them.

Not recognising the fact that the overhaul to get them anywhere near service would be incredibly expensive.

I think we really do have to get away from the idea that any sort of 'budget' offering is in any way possible short of running an 803 with seats through the night. Even that would lose money because there isn't sufficient year round demand for it.

Even the daytime services aren't really now a budget offering.

 

[Wynd]

In Aberdeenshire or in Aberdeen? No use at all if the onward transport is non-bike-carrying buses...

FW is different, it's actually where the activity is.

(People won't ride MTBs a long way. They're not road bike

Is that condescension? One happens to be a seasoned bicyclist.

How much time have you spent here in the shire, how aware are you of the growing cycle tourism here?

This whole avenue of adventure tourism is an important revenue stream for the sleeper going forwards.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not recognising the fact that the overhaul to get them anywhere near service would be incredibly expensive.

I think we really do have to get away from the idea that any sort of 'budget' offering is in any way possible short of running an 803 with seats through the night.

Deutsche Bahn did that, but I doubt they're very popular, and they could actually be less economic as fewer people would travel. On the other hand, there is an 0428 Glasgow to Euston (arr 0916) and an 0539 Edinburgh to Kings Cross (arr 0940). You could pull the latter half an hour earlier, but the former would be fine for a 1000 workshop/meeting start more or less anywhere in central London, which despite all this talk of 0900 meetings they aren't that common. Sure, they're not nice times, but most people would sleep better in their own bed for 4-5 hours than on a train for 7 hours. Yet the Sleeper books up.

Is that condescension? One happens to be a seasoned bicyclist.

No, I'm pointing out that few people would be willing to get to Aberdeen in the Sleeper and then get on a mountain bike and ride it 20-30 miles along a road to some trails. Riding a knobbly-tyred full-suspension MTB on road is a heck of an effort.

How much time have you spent here in the shire, how aware are you of the growing cycle tourism here?

Not a lot of time, admittedly. Only in the city, of which I'm not a great fan.

This whole avenue of adventure tourism is an important revenue stream for the sleeper going forwards.

It certainly is, but Fort William and Aviemore are probably your key destinations for that, and the trails start pretty much on the edge of town there, unlike Aberdeen.

 

[Davester50]

People have mentioned that the Aberdeen Portion can't be extended to Inverness because of the desire to serve Aviemore et al..... what about doing the opposite?

Extend the Inverness portion to Aberdeen?

Missing out Leuchars for St Andrews and Dundee? An arrival time 3 hours later?

 

[Flying Snail]

No, it fell out of favour because people don't want to pay sleeper prices to sleep underneath a farting, snoring stranger, regardless of their gender.

There are recliner seats for the price conscious and, even then, overnight road coaches are usually cheaper.

Sleepers will never, ever, be the budget option.

In the cabins, the people travelling will not be the ones counting every penny.

Indeed. So what justification could there possibly be for public money subsidising this service for the well-heeled while the alternatives predominantly used by those on lower incomes off are 100% commercial?

If it is to stay as a "luxury train hotel" then it needs to be self-supporting and as the new stock was ordered with substantially lower bed capacity than the Mk3s I don't see any easy way to make it anything else.

 

[Falcon1200]

Lay off all the office staff and have the existing ScotRail staff take that over.

As well as being a rather unpleasant suggestion, that assumes that Scotrail's existing staff have sufficient spare capacity to take on the additional and specialised task of organising and marketing the sleeper operation.

 

[Bill57p9]

The sleeper should be properly (re)introduced to the ScotRail network with things like through fares, shared lounges and joined up marketing.

Adding the likes of Birmingham to the network wouldn't hurt either (either actually send the sleepers that way or offer through tickets)

 

[Bletchleyite]

As well as being a rather unpleasant suggestion

The railway isn't a job creation exercise.

that assumes that Scotrail's existing staff have sufficient spare capacity to take on the additional and specialised task of organising and marketing the sleeper operation.

They managed it before. It's 4 trains, 6 nights a week.

The sleeper should be properly (re)introduced to the ScotRail network with things like through fares, shared lounges and joined up marketing.

Agreed. Inter7City First Class could share the lounges.

Adding the likes of Birmingham to the network wouldn't hurt either (either actually send the sleepers that way or offer through tickets)

Pre COVID there was a plan to do exactly that, I believe.

 

[Scotrail84]

Ideally put it back under ScotRail. Integrate the whole thing, drastically lower the prices and make the product on offer more affordable for people in the UK and not just tourists. At present asking someone to pay £250 plus one way to London is madness when they can fly on an internal flight for less that half that price.

I think people hoping for mods to the coaches such as pods/couchettes are going to be very disappointed. Nothing like that will be done and theres no chance any new coaches will be ordered either.

If it was to go back under Scotrail then there would a lot of high up staff members let go from Serco as ScotRail already have a system in place that works and they don't need additional staff on huge salaries doing the same thing.

 

[JonathanH]

Integrate the whole thing, drastically lower the prices and make the product on offer more affordable for people in the UK and not just tourists. At present asking someone to pay £250 plus one way to London is madness when they can fly on an internal flight for less that half that price.

The product is selling at £250. That does not meet the cost of the operation. I agree that there might be nights when £100 is more appropriate, and they may try to better look at past bookings to identify when that should be offered, but it sells at the higher price on peak days.

It isn't madness that an internal flight is cheaper. Flights offer a more economic way of transporting people. What might be madness is that internal flights are cheaper than day trains.

Let's say the fare was £50 single for a standard berth. People would still need to take internal flights because there wouldn't be capacity for all the people who want to travel.

 

[paul1609]

Fort William and all the other communities between there and Glasgow including the Clyde Naval Base (Garelochead), Helensburgh, Dumbarton etc. Not really acceptable.

l used the sleeper to/ from Garelochead on and off for 30 years till I retired in 2019 in all that time I saw nobody else get on or off the sleeper there. In fact some staff told me that as soon as they saw a passenger booked from Garelochead they knew it was me.
Clyde Naval Base traffic to London and the South is all viaGlasgow Airport or pool/ hire cars. Many of the flights to and from Gla are met by coaches direct to the base.
Many of the Fort William line stations generally have no or single figures for the sleeper. I think Ive only seen significant numbers joining at Crianlarich, Rannoch and Courrour. The owners of the Bridge of Orchy Hotel used to be regulars from their house in Battersea. Its basically all tourist and most go to the end of the line.

 

[Ediswan]

I suspect busier than some might think - the area is well-visited by winter climbers. I suspect autumn is probably the quietest season as the leisure hillwalkers aren't interested and there's no ice for the serious winter climbers to climb.

Autumn, preferably during BST, is kayaking season. Plenty of precipitation to top up the rivers. The sleeper doesn't carry boats though.

Where the sleeper did come in handy one year was for somebody who, at short notice, could no longer make the cars+boats convoy up. They were going to pull out from the trip. I suggested the sleeper and join us later. Request stop at Roy Bridge. Quite an impressive sight at such a small station, for one passenger. A short 400m walk to the accomodation. Very efficient.

 

[Geoff DC]

Perhaps there's an opportunity for the (minority of) surly Caledonian Sleeper staff to undertake short-term secondments on the Night Riviera and see what less surly customer service looks/feels like.

They would have to live in Penzance for a few years for that to work, the Night Riveria has a community feel to it as the staff are from PZ and well known to the customers, at least those from Cornwall.
Plus and importantly so, they bring the Cornish vibe to the service, so as soon as you board in Paddington you feel like you are in Cornwall and not England anymore, one of its really strong points.

 

[nlogax]

Personally I now only use the CS when absolutely necessary and pay for a berth on top of a work-expensed off peak return.
It’s a dreadful sleeper experience if sleep is the main reason for travelling on it. That said I don’t see masses of berth availability if trying to book within a week or so. It’s obviously well used and pretty busy.. so I am curious as to what improvements could be made if it’s already seeing decent passenger loadings. Passengers do appear willing to pay the high prices CS charge.