Southern rail letting you book for Christmas day!!!!

[Starmill]

The T-12 / T-8 you refer to is when engineering work timetables are confirmed. Generally, Advances are not released for dates where engineering work is planned but the timetable has not yet been confirmed.

TOCs that release Advances before T-8 generally only do so on weekdays, or weekends where it's known there is no engineering work that will affect services.

The problem generally isn't generally with when Advances are released. It's with when LTP schedules are published, enabling people to buy walk-up tickets for dates when engineering works will result in an amended (and possibly withdrawn) service.

And of course, the retailer has absolutely no way to differentiate between a WTT service available in error and a service confirmed for running as part of the amended timetable, because they don't receive anything different in the data between these two.

It's not possible for the retailer to block sales on 25 December only either, because if an operator does decide that they want to run a few services on Christmas Day and the retailer won't offer them, they're breaking their licence agreement. There's every chance of this actually coming up too, e.g. a departure of a passenger service at say 0005 on the morning of the 25th is quite possible somewhere.

 

[miklcct]

No need to rely on the Consumer Rights Act; it's a basic matter of contract law. You have paid to travel from A to B on a given date (with certain modalities regarding time), so that service needs to be provided. If not by train, then by alternative transport.

You won’t have a train or any alternative transport but you will have a new thread to start on Boxing Day!

I bought the ticket on the basis of the first quote, "You have paid to travel from A to B on a given date (with certain modalities regarding time), so that service needs to be provided. If not by train, then by alternative transport." Why are you contradicting me?

If the trains don't run on that day, they have responsibility to put me on a bus. If there are no buses as well, they have then responsibility to call me a taxi on their expense.

In terms of law, how early do they need to cancel trains from the timetable and notify me to refund me without other consequences, such as the provision of alternative transport?

 

[Haywain]

You won’t have a train or any alternative transport but you will have a new thread to start on Boxing Day!

There won’t be any TOC staff to contact on the day either.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Usually Trainline ended up being the culprit for these sorts of things. I'd have thought TOCs themselves would have been fairly proactive about blocking out dates where they've no intention to operate at all.

I think as Paul Kelly says it has something to do with selling tickets further ahead, but as far as I can see there is no requirement to *not* do that. Trainline now has a hack to not sell journeys on Christmas Day, and has for a few years, whereas here is Southern's service from Victoria, in all its glory: http://timetablehistory.com/Station.aspx?StationID=1871&Date=25/12/2022

 

[Starmill]

The reality is that planning in general needs more resources and better staff retention because otherwise these issues will just keep on happening. Given the current circumstances it seems very unlikely that recruitment or retention will improve any time soon though.

This sort of stuff is the bread and butter of super-basic good customer experience, but that just doesn't seem to be recognised. There's loads of things that are factors in poor customer satisfaction that are really difficult and expensive to solve e.g. infrastructure unreliability and chronic rolling stock shortage. In contrast simply not uploading the timetable incorrectly is, relatively speaking, quick and easy to solve. And yet...

 

[swt_passenger]

This is possibly a silly question (never really thought about it before) but what happens to railway timetables when clocks go forward or back? I guess there would still be a few services running at 1/2am?

Every time we have a clock change, in either direction, someone usually asks the same question, there are many existing threads on the subject. The quick and easy answer is that the railway copes the same way they do every year.

We put the clocks back in October 2021:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/daylight-saving-and-railways-discussion.223874/#post-5369710
Then put them forward in March 2022:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ons-running-at-that-time.229614/#post-5589998

 

[Haywain]

a departure of a passenger service at say 0005 on the morning of the 25th is quite possible somewhere.

The number of instances of that is, at best, minuscule.

 

[Starmill]

The number of instances of that is, at best, minuscule.

Unless it were guaranteed to be zero, now and forever, then how many it would be precisely is irrelevant. Also just how miniscule is that number? In previous years the 0015 or 0030 from Stansted Airport has run.

 

[Haywain]

Unless it were guaranteed to be zero, now and forever, then how many it would be precisely is irrelevant. Also just how miniscule is that number? In previous years the 0015 or 0030 from Stansted Airport has run.

I'm of the view that it is worth the risk of not selling tickets for one or two trains to avoid the problem of selling for many more that don't run. And I don't see that retailers should be running scared of licence conditions as you suggest. None of them are going to be put out of business for something like this.

 

[Starmill]

I'm of the view that it is worth the risk of not selling tickets for one or two trains to avoid the problem of selling for many more that don't run. And I don't see that retailers should be running scared of licence conditions as you suggest. None of them are going to be put out of business for something like this.

It wasn't a suggestion that anyone should be running scared or is at risk of some wholesale loss of business. It was a suggestion that the licence conditions make it clear on whom this problem actually lies.

The technical position is that you must sell a ticket valid against the itineraries produced, including for Christmas Day, if the normal conditions are met. If a retailer wished to deviate, and were prepared in advance to defend their position should they ever return any incorrect results, then all power to them. I admire the confidence. However, most won't choose to go out onto this limb, as the trainline and trainsplit examples above demonstrate. Nor is it reasonable to imply that they ought to be doing so in order to try to compensate for the wholly under-resourced / under-skilled planning departments at TOCs and Network Rail.

 

[Haywain]

Nor is it reasonable to imply that they ought to be doing so in order to try to compensate for the wholly under-resourced / under-skilled planning departments at TOCs and Network Rail.

I have already stated that responsibility does not lie with the retailer. However, it seems to me that taking a pragmatic view and preventing sales is far better than having to deal with queries and refunds at a later date, and avoids incurring unnecessary and unrecoverable costs. Evidently, you think otherwise.

 

[philthetube]

View attachment 121770

I've just paid £3.95 for a ticket on Christmas day - let's see what will happen by then.

Timetable of the day will wreck your plans.

 

[AlterEgo]

I bought the ticket on the basis of the first quote, "You have paid to travel from A to B on a given date (with certain modalities regarding time), so that service needs to be provided. If not by train, then by alternative transport." Why are you contradicting me?

Because on the day there will no be no staff, no trains, and no way of getting other transport.

If the trains don't run on that day, they have responsibility to put me on a bus. If there are no buses as well, they have then responsibility to call me a taxi on their expense.

Who's going to call the taxi for you on Christmas Day? How do you propose exercising your rights? You'll be on your own, locked out of a station, and nobody will be manning the phones. As you yourself knew before buying the ticket, there are no trains on Christmas Day, and there will be no way of getting you to your destination without you paying yourself and having to claim it back.

I await the follow up thread on Boxing Day.

 

[Watershed]

Timetable of the day will wreck your plans.

The Timetable of the Day, much as it's unacceptable and (in my view) an unfair term and hence ineffective, does not purport to limit the right to alternative transport. It 'merely' purports to exclude the possibility of delay compensation.

I bought the ticket on the basis of the first quote, "You have paid to travel from A to B on a given date (with certain modalities regarding time), so that service needs to be provided. If not by train, then by alternative transport." Why are you contradicting me?

If the trains don't run on that day, they have responsibility to put me on a bus. If there are no buses as well, they have then responsibility to call me a taxi on their expense.

If you do attempt to make the journey, I imagine the reality of enforcing your rights will crash down to earth and shatter any illusions you may currently be under.

In terms of law, how early do they need to cancel trains from the timetable and notify me to refund me without other consequences, such as the provision of alternative transport?

There is, with most retailers, no mechanism to foist a refund upon you. Nor is there a provision in the NRCoT entitling the TOCs to do so. So there isn't any timescale for this at all, because legally speaking they can't do it.

But as above - theory and practice are the same. In theory...

 

[Starmill]

I have already stated that responsibility does not lie with the retailer. However, it seems to me that taking a pragmatic view and preventing sales is far better than having to deal with queries and refunds at a later date, and avoids incurring unnecessary and unrecoverable costs. Evidently, you think otherwise.

As do Trainline and others. Perhaps even every retailer except the one you're involved with?

For the record if I were ever involved in this professionally, which hasn't been the case, I would probably make the suggestion of a timetable search which bars all results containing a departure time 0430 - 2359 inclusive for every 25 December, rather than blocking all sales for that date. I would also say that the business would need a process in place to check every year approximately 13 weeks before Christmas Day if any TOCs are running a daytime service. Further manual steps would be required to reorganise 26 December. This would create additional work obviously, but that's an inevitable consequence of attempting to fix someone else's problems.

 

[Snow1964]

Well it won’t run. Responsible retailers wouldn’t be selling tickets beyond T-8 when actual timetables are published as per national agreement to help the operators who can’t get back to T-12.

Unfortunately this is the very negative approach, shouldn’t be trying to drop the good operators to 8 weeks to allow for poor operators.

Basically this whole thread is because planners of passenger trains should generally stick to updates 12-14 weeks out. Anything more and they get overworked and miss the obvious (eg Christmas).

The sooner everyone accepts timetables should be updated weeks 12-14, and published week 12, and advance tickets sold might actually start to encourage passengers back.

On a day when EasyJet opened its bookings for 9 May - 30 September 2023, it’s a farce that some on here are suggesting railway should only sell tickets max 8 weeks ahead.

 

[Starmill]

Unfortunately this is the very negative approach, shouldn’t be trying to drop the good operators to 8 weeks to allow for poor operators.

Basically this whole thread is because planners of passenger trains should generally stick to updates 12-14 weeks out. Anything more and they get overworked and miss the obvious (eg Christmas).

The sooner everyone accepts timetables should be updated weeks 12-14, and published week 12, and advance tickets sold might actually start to encourage passengers back.

On a day when EasyJet opened its bookings for 9 May - 30 September 2023, it’s a farce that some on here are suggesting railway should only sell tickets max 8 weeks ahead.

Twelve weeks is an absolute minimum business requirement too. East Coast, TransPennine Express and as was Virgin Trains opened bookings to much longer horizons, to at least six months on weekdays, starting years ago, in order to better compete with the airlines (and to a small extent coach operators).

 

[Haywain]

Twelve weeks is an absolute minimum business requirement too. East Coast, TransPennine Express and as was Virgin Trains opened bookings to much longer horizons, to at least six months on weekdays, starting years ago, in order to better compete with the airlines (and to a small extent coach operators).

Given the shortages of expeienced staff in Network Rail and many TOCs. I think we're a long way off seeing 12 weeks as a standard, let alone longer.

 

[Adam Williams]

shouldn’t be beyond the wit of retailers to block sales for a day when they know trains won’t be running at all

The problem is, it's death by a thousand cuts. Does it take a long time and a huge amount of effort to add additional logic to prevent sales for services on Christmas Day? No. Should retailers have to? No. Will it break things if a TOC ever does decide they want to run Christmas Day services in the future? Yes.

But this is far from the only instance where retailers are expected to pick up the slack because TOCs as organisations don't do their job correctly. Last month it was a TOC fares team failing to update restrictions on a ticket to disallow trains they didn't want customers to travel on, and then charging customers and issuing them with penalty fares when they did nothing wrong and travelled on an itinerary issued by an accredited TPR. It took weeks to resolve.

Where do you draw the line? Should retailers have added a hack to restrict that ticket for the TOC in question and make assumptions about what their fares team actually wanted to do? It might have reduced complaints, at the risk of overcharging customers. Should retailers be expected to add hacks to their seat selector to post-process coach map data, because a good majority of that that gets entered into RARS is junk too?

Where can I send my invoice for all of this wasted engineering time?

---

Some TOCs are great at working with retailers and keeping them informed, which is always appreciated - but when it comes to quality of industry data there is much variability. More should be done.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

But this is far from the only instance where retailers are expected to pick up the slack because TOCs as organisations don't do their job correctly. Last month it was a TOC fares team failing to update restrictions on a ticket to disallow trains they didn't want customers to travel on, and then charging customers and issuing them with penalty fares when they did nothing wrong and travelled on an itinerary issued by an accredited TPR. It took weeks to resolve.

When/where was that? Presume discussed elsewhere on here.

 

[Adam Williams]

When/where was that? Presume discussed elsewhere on here.

No, it wasn't discussed here.

Just one of the many things you have to deal with when you're in the retail space. For the most part these sorts of issues do get resolved satisfactorily for customers (and that was indeed the case here) after industry participants talk to each other - so I'm not going to name the TOC - but I mainly bring up this example to illustrate that the fares data and timetable data sometimes has very significant quality problems, and it puts retailers in a difficult position.

It perhaps also highlights the importance of booking with a retailer that gives a damn about its customers and will pursue problems like this with the TOC on behalf of affected customers.

 

[43066]

The Timetable of the Day, much as it's unacceptable and (in my view) an unfair term and hence ineffective, does not purport to limit the right to alternative transport. It 'merely' purports to exclude the possibility of delay compensation.

Has the bolded bit ever actually been tested? There are arguably good policy reasons for it not being found to be unfair - albeit I do realise you will likely disagree with me on that!

View attachment 121770

I've just paid £3.95 for a ticket on Christmas day - let's see what will happen by then.

With all due respect I must ask exactly is the point of doing this? It’s a foregone conclusion what will happen.

I would spend the time between now and Xmas coming up with more enjoyable Christmas plans, such as spending with nearest and dearest! .

 

[etr221]

View attachment 121770

I've just paid £3.95 for a ticket on Christmas day - let's see what will happen by then.

With all due respect I must ask exactly is the point of doing this? It’s a foregone conclusion what will happen.

When the railway sells a ticket, it is a basic expectation that it will be valid for travel. What is the journey that miklcct can make for which his ticket is valid? (Given the expectation that there will be no service on that day)

Selling a ticket when there will be no service - and when there was never any intention of providing a service - is I would suggest fraud (or something like it) - something to refer to Trading Standards?

Looking at National Rail Enquiries it also shows services for 25 December... some marked with a green tick (e.g. Paddington to Oxford, via Marylebone). Others giving times but not fares. But GWR seem to have set things up correctly (?), I get a "This journey is not available" page (for PAD-SWI), with an explanation (amongst others):

Travelling at Christmas
Be aware that there are no train services running on Christmas Day, 25 December each year, and only a limited number of services running on selected routes on Boxing Day, 26 December.

I would expect that - for whatever date - all operators to have set up the base timetable for that date, with the service they intend to operate - whether that is weekday, Sunday, Bank Holiday, or - as in this case - Christmas Day service (i.e. none).

It would seem that GWR is the only, or one of the few, operators to have done so...

 

[Wallsendmag]

The problem is, it's death by a thousand cuts. Does it take a long time and a huge amount of effort to add additional logic to prevent sales for services on Christmas Day? No. Should retailers have to? No. Will it break things if a TOC ever does decide they want to run Christmas Day services in the future? Yes.

Err no it won't if implemented the way we have it, simple add the dates that trains don't run to a list which takes a couple of seconds to update.

 

[Adam Williams]

Err no it won't if implemented the way we have it, simple add the dates that trains don't run to a list which takes a couple of seconds to update.

It's still going to be broken until you manage to get a human to update your list. That's my point. There shouldn't be a list - hardcoded or managed in some sort of database which "takes a couple of seconds to update" - maintained by retailers individually. It's just stupid when all of this should be managed via the timetable data (or hell, RARS and mandatory reservations which get blocked off on Christmas day if you're LNER/another TOC forcing reservations) which simply shouldn't include services on days when services aren't going to operate. A manual date blacklist will also lead to an inconsistent experience across retailers for customers, because you can bet everyone will implement it differently (All services on Christmas day? All services after some arbitrary point - 04:29?) and update it at different times.

More to the point, your simple list of dates isn't going to work if only one TOC starts running services on Christmas day because you'll be unable to differentiate between those real services and the ones that aren't supposed to be there in the data. That sort of problem existing is usually a major clue that you're putting logic in the wrong place.

 

[Starmill]

Err no it won't if implemented the way we have it, simple add the dates that trains don't run to a list which takes a couple of seconds to update.

Haywain put a lot of effort into trying to imply that everyone else isn't as good as LNER above and didn't get very far. The downsides of the approach were discussed fairly extensively.

 

[43066]

When the railway sells a ticket, it is a basic expectation that it will be valid for travel. What is the journey that miklcct can make for which his ticket is valid? (Given the expectation that there will be no service on that day)

You know something? I’ll concede you actually do have something of a point here.

Selling a ticket when there will be no service - and when there was never any intention of providing a service - is I would suggest fraud (or something like it) - something to refer to Trading Standards?

This bit is nonsense, though. The ticket he has bought has been sold subject to NRCoT which provides as follows:

2.2 The ‘National Rail Guide to Tickets’ leaflet, available from www.nationalrail.co.uk/guide- to-tickets, provides information on the range of Tickets that can be purchased and is available from all staffed railway stations. The National Rail Enquiries website at www.nationalrail.co.uk/tickets provides comprehensive information on the range of Tickets available for your journey.

When you refer to the NRE website you are met with the following, admittedly after some digging (so likely incorporating the terms indicated on said website into the contract):

Christmas and New Year 2022/23 Travel Summary​

Welcome to the National Rail Enquiries travel advice summary for the Christmas and New Year holiday period, Friday 23 December 2022 to Tuesday 3 January 2023.
During this time, essential engineering and railway improvement work will be taking place on several routes across the country. Network Rail carry out the work during holidays as far fewer people usually travel by train.
Some train companies will also be making changes to their timetable, and to some train times, to match services to the number of customers travelling.
We hope the information in this guide will help you to plan your rail travel during the festive period.

Christmas and New Year changes by your Train Operating Company:​

Details of the service each Train Operating Company will be providing over the bank holiday period will be published here from early October onwards.

(My italics).

So the expectation is that, from October onwards, it will become evident what service is being offered and any ticket bought now will be contractually subject to that.

So, if you were someone who wasn’t aware no service would be offered on virtually the entire network on Christmas Day and Boxing Day, you’ll find out shortly. It took a fair bit of playing around to find even that ambiguous level of detail, so I will concede it should be made a lot clearer that no service is available. It’s pretty poor that it isn’t, frankly.

However I maintain this is not an issue for most people, other than those with an interest in these matters that really does border on being obsessive and unhealthy. No real passengers book £3 tickets for Xmas day, in the certain knowledge they will be unable to travel, just to create a reason to complain about the fact they can’t.

I’ll respectfully renew my earlier suggestion to @miklcct . Even if you don’t celebrate Christmas, there are far better ways to spend the public holiday than proving this particular point!

 

[gingerheid]

If they were planning (as I suspect they are) to make the journey by taxi anyway then they now have a prospect of having that taxi paid for for them.

As for whether they will... can terms of a contract include the right to randomly include further terms? Only up to an ill-defined point.

There's going to be an argument, but I think they would have had a good chance of getting the money (I'd have ranked the chances more highly if it was a ticket to an airport, where it can more easily be argued that logic would suggest there *should* be a train service on Christmas day). I assume the main thing spoiling that chance is that someone from the retailer will see what they have done via this thread, cancel the ticket, and invite them to provide details to receive their refund.

 

[Haywain]

Haywain put a lot of effort into trying to imply that everyone else isn't as good as LNER above and didn't get very far. The downsides of the approach were discussed fairly extensively.

I was not trying to imply anything of the sort and at no time mentioned LNER.

 

[etr221]

This bit is nonsense, though. The ticket he has bought has been sold subject to NRCoT which provides as follows:

The clause quoted only refers to where information about the range of tickets may be found... Is there anything in them dealing with this case (a ticket being sold for day/train for which there is no intention of providing service/running it?

When you refer to the NRE website you are met with the following, admittedly after some digging (so likely incorporating the terms indicated on said website into the contract):

Christmas and New Year 2022/23 Travel Summary​

Welcome to the National Rail Enquiries travel advice summary for the Christmas and New Year holiday period, Friday 23 December 2022 to Tuesday 3 January 2023.
During this time, essential engineering and railway improvement work will be taking place on several routes across the country. Network Rail carry out the work during holidays as far fewer people usually travel by train.
Some train companies will also be making changes to their timetable, and to some train times, to match services to the number of customers travelling.
We hope the information in this guide will help you to plan your rail travel during the festive period.

Christmas and New Year changes by your Train Operating Company:​

Details of the service each Train Operating Company will be providing over the bank holiday period will be published here from early October onwards.

(My italics).

So the expectation is that, from October onwards, it will become evident what service is being offered and any ticket bought now will be contractually subject to that.

But the issue is (1) that you are not met by it - even when you specify a date within the Christmas/New Year period for your enquiry; and (2) we are now beyond 'early October' (if only just), and there are 'service details' (train timetable) there, without any indication that these are 'normal services subject to holiday (or other) modification'. It is 'evident what service is being offered' so 'any ticket bought now will be contractually subject to that'.

So, if you were someone who wasn’t aware no service would be offered on virtually the entire network on Christmas Day and Boxing Day, you’ll find out shortly. It took a fair bit of playing around to find even that ambiguous level of detail, so I will concede it should be made a lot clearer that no service is available. It’s pretty poor that it isn’t, frankly.

Currently I am being told that there are lots of services on much (most?) of the network, and what they are, on Christmas Day and Boxing Day.
'Details of the service each Train Operating Company will be providing' (or intends to provide) should be there as soon as the period is made available on the enquiry/booking/ticketing system. (current availablity seems to be end of December (NRE)/1st January (Southern). If they don't yet have holiday period details, it should be 22 December (until they do)
My comment would stronger than 'pretty poor'

However I maintain this is not an issue for most people, other than those with an interest in these matters that really does border on being obsessive and unhealthy. No real passengers book £3 tickets for Xmas day, in the certain knowledge they will be unable to travel, just to create a reason to complain about the fact they can’t.

Agreed: BUT the issue is symptomatic of a more widespread attitude, over the importance of providing a good service to customers, which includes accurate, correct, information.

I remember seeing (sometime, somewhere) "Nice people to do business with" on some companies advert. Something that all businesses should always be able to say. I don't think 'the railway' is...

I’ll respectfully renew my earlier suggestion to @miklcct . Even if you don’t celebrate Christmas, there are far better ways to spend the public holiday than proving this particular point!

Yes. But the point shouldn't need proving.

Edited to add ommited (added in bold) words that clarified what I meant.