Southern rail letting you book for Christmas day!!!!

[Wallsendmag]

It's still going to be broken until you manage to get a human to update your list. That's my point. There shouldn't be a list - hardcoded or managed in some sort of database which "takes a couple of seconds to update" - maintained by retailers individually. It's just stupid when all of this should be managed via the timetable data (or hell, RARS and mandatory reservations which get blocked off on Christmas day if you're LNER/another TOC forcing reservations) which simply shouldn't include services on days when services aren't going to operate. A manual date blacklist will also lead to an inconsistent experience across retailers for customers, because you can bet everyone will implement it differently (All services on Christmas day? All services after some arbitrary point - 04:29?) and update it at different times.

More to the point, your simple list of dates isn't going to work if only one TOC starts running services on Christmas day because you'll be unable to differentiate between those real services and the ones that aren't supposed to be there in the data. That sort of problem existing is usually a major clue that you're putting logic in the wrong place.

Not really as the first day in Jan we update the barred dates, remove the previous Christmas Day and add the next one so it never turns into a broken state

 

[Starmill]

I was not trying to imply anything of the sort and at no time mentioned LNER.

You didn't mention them by name but I posited at #45 that you were only defensive of a particular approach because it's the one taken by the retailer you're involved with personally, rather than because you genuinely believe it is better. You were given the opportunity to deny that LNER have implemented a manual fix susceptible to the drawbacks I was explaining. You didn't do so, and now @Wallsendmag has confirmed that this is the case.

Your argument was that every retailer other than LNER is doing less well for having not made such an intervention. @Adam Williams and I have been politely pointing out that others are strongly likely to have principled reasons to reject the approach @Wallsendmag confirms LNER are using. We are making the case that it's not due to an oversight or lack of ambition that others haven't used this approach. That's not a criticism of your professional approach but I think you'll agree it's unfair of you to imply that the solution you're both putting some effort into advocating ticks all of the boxes?

 

[Adam Williams]

Not really as the first day in Jan we update the barred dates, remove the previous Christmas Day and add the next one so it never turns into a broken state

But if a TOC decides they want to start running services on Christmas day between you doing that and the next Christmas, you'll still need to update your list of dates - no? Otherwise you won't be selling tickets for those services.

 

[43066]

I remember seeing (sometime, somewhere) "Nice people to do business with". Something that all businesses should always be able to say. I don't think 'the railway' is...

Based on someone deliberately buying a ticket for a day they know there will be no service just to complain about it? Frankly, if that’s the biggest thing someone has to worry about, I envy them!

 

[Starmill]

Not really as the first day in Jan we update the barred dates, remove the previous Christmas Day and add the next one so it never turns into a broken state

But if you refer back to the post by @Adam Williams, it already explains why, among IT professionals, this is accepted as an example of poor practice. Anything which requires a human to remember to do something in a specific way is by definition fallible.

That's not a personal criticism of you for thinking up the idea and implementing it, or of the company for permitting it. It is merely an explanation of the principle being broken and thus of why others are disagreeing with it.

But if a TOC decides they want to start running services on Christmas day between you doing that and the next Christmas, you'll still need to update your list of dates - no? Otherwise you won't be selling tickets for those services.

Indeed. Or the person responsible is on sick leave at the time and their colleagues forget to check. Or staff retire without documentation being in place and time allowed for a proper handover to be carried out. Both astonishingly common events in the world of professional IT, even among the best run organisations.

 

[Taunton]

Airlines within Europe don't run on Christmas day, and it's never been possible to make a reservation on them. Nor can you do it at their agents, the travel agencies.

Why is it so difficult for the railway to achieve what comparable others have always done?

 

[Starmill]

Airlines within Europe don't run on Christmas day, and it's never been possible to make a reservation on them. Nor can you do it at their agent's, the travel agencies.

Why is it so difficult for the railway to achieve what comparable others have always done?

Probably because since privatisation data and technology have been badly under-resourced industry-wide, so you end up with partial and bespoke in-house solutions such as the one explained by @Wallsendmag. Exactly the same thing applies to time restriction data or new ticket type introduction, it needs manual intervention and there are mis-sales when that intervention goes wrong.

Globally connected industries like shipping and airlines simply have to get these things right first time, or face pariah status (like Russian airlines now do) so they've spent the money getting the development right.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Airlines within Europe don't run on Christmas day, and it's never been possible to make a reservation on them. Nor can you do it at their agent's, the travel agencies.

Manchester Airport always seems busy enough on Christmas Day. (Presumably these are all just holiday charter flights operating rather than scheduled services?)

 

[Starmill]

Manchester Airport always seems busy enough on Christmas Day. (Presumably these are all just holiday charter flights operating rather than scheduled services?)

Or intercontinental services.

Manchester - Manchester Airport all stations is one of the few routes in the country where you could argue on the basis of demand for a train service, as evidenced by the commercially operated bus service. I think it's mainly people working there though rather than airline passengers. Of course the cost of such a train service wouldn't be justifiable in the current climate.

 

[etr221]

To clarify, "Nice people to do business with" was seen on some company's advert, as a claim they made of themselves, as a reason to do business with them. Something I would hope all businesses should be able claim.

And my comment as to the railway not being able to is a reflection of not just this issue, but of many others - see other threads ad nauseam.

Based on someone deliberately buying a ticket for a day they know there will be no service just to complain about it? Frankly, if that’s the biggest thing someone has to worry about, I envy them!

They are buying a ticket for a specific day, for a service that they are told is running on that day. While you (or I) may 'know' that there will be no service that day, that is not what the railway's information system says (or more precisely, said at the time of purchase).

 

[Starmill]

And my comment as to the railway not being able to is a reflection of not just this issue, but of many others - see other threads ad nauseam.

Indeed. It was pointed out right at the start of this thread that 25 and 26 December could be white-spaced every year in the LTP at essentially no extra cost, with anything that does then need to run added later, when there's time available to plan it. This would completely remove the problem, without causing the extra work undertaken by @Wallsendmag and colleagues, but it's not something that is being considered. It's a choice to do it in the current way, by placing a warning on NRE which you will only know about if you look for it and are actually able to find the correct page.

 

[Haywain]

You didn't mention them by name but I posited at #45 that you were only defensive of a particular approach because it's the one taken by the retailer you're involved with personally, rather than because you genuinely believe it is better. You were given the opportunity to deny that LNER have implemented a manual fix susceptible to the drawbacks I was explaining. You didn't do so, and now @Wallsendmag has confirmed that this is the case.

Your argument was that every retailer other than LNER is doing less well for having not made such an intervention. @Adam Williams and I have been politely pointing out that others are strongly likely to have principled reasons to reject the approach @Wallsendmag confirms LNER are using. We are making the case that it's not due to an oversight or lack of ambition that others haven't used this approach. That's not a criticism of your professional approach but I think you'll agree it's unfair of you to imply that the solution you're both putting some effort into advocating ticks all of the boxes?

That’s how you have chosen to interpret my posts. That doesn’t mean that was my thinking behind them.

 

[Starmill]

That’s how you have chosen to interpret my posts. That doesn’t mean that was my thinking behind them.

Certainly. As you've been invited to correct the record several times now, but have, as you're quite entitled to do, chosen not to respond, all readers and I can go by is the line of argument which I've presented, and our own thoughts.

 

[D1024]

Airlines within Europe don't run on Christmas day, and it's never been possible to make a reservation on them. Nor can you do it at their agents, the travel agencies.

Sorry, but that statement is not true. There are certainly much reduced services, especially UK Domestic flights but plenty of scheduled flights do operate both within Europe and Intercontinental. For example KLM & Air France operate flights to and from UK airports on Christmas Day and Easyjet have a limited domestic schedule - there are plenty of others...
(I work at a UK airport and have regularly worked Christmas Day)

 

[Doppelganger]

Airlines within Europe don't run on Christmas day, and it's never been possible to make a reservation on them. Nor can you do it at their agents, the travel agencies.

Eh? Airlines in Europe, including to and from the UK very much do operate.

If you're being sarcastic, then apologies, but I read that with a straight face.

 

[317 forever]

No need to rely on the Consumer Rights Act; it's a basic matter of contract law. You have paid to travel from A to B on a given date (with certain modalities regarding time), so that service needs to be provided. If not by train, then by alternative transport.

That being said, it's an option which would likely involve a lot of hassle.

So if someone buys a ticket for Christmas Day, even if their heart of hearts believing the advertising of such tickets is an error, will the railway really be required to lay on alternative travel such as a taxi?

 

[Darandio]

So if someone buys a ticket for Christmas Day, even if their heart of hearts believing the advertising of such tickets is an error, will the railway really be required to lay on alternative travel such as a taxi?

It's probably a moot point whether they are required or not. Who are they going to contact on Christmas Day to get alternative travel arranged?

 

[Starmill]

So if someone buys a ticket for Christmas Day, even if their heart of hearts believing the advertising of such tickets is an error, will the railway really be required to lay on alternative travel such as a taxi?

Hypothetically the requirement is the same as any other day, because there's no special exclusion for 25 December. This could be written into the NRCoT (although if it didn't also appear prominently that no service runs on Christmas Day before you bought your ticket, it would be very dubious as to whether it would have any actual influence - you can't asterisk your way out of a fundamental of the contract). However it's not mentioned.

But as others have said, practically it's a totally moot point. There isn't doubt about what the outcome is going to be.

 

[317 forever]

And of course, the retailer has absolutely no way to differentiate between a WTT service available in error and a service confirmed for running as part of the amended timetable, because they don't receive anything different in the data between these two.

It's not possible for the retailer to block sales on 25 December only either, because if an operator does decide that they want to run a few services on Christmas Day and the retailer won't offer them, they're breaking their licence agreement. There's every chance of this actually coming up too, e.g. a departure of a passenger service at say 0005 on the morning of the 25th is quite possible somewhere.

An example I've just seen is Northern Rail from Widnes to Manchester Piccadilly. Departs Christmas Day 00.07 arrives 00.37.

I am considering a day out in Widnes & East Liverpool on Christmas Eve or December 27th from my local station Heaton Chapel, and was curious about how late I could stay out. The Trainsplit website has been good and printed in red Warning: Long wait, as it would be 53 hours 29 minutes until my train home - 06.06 on December 27th!

Depending on how the above person booked a train journey, what ought to happen morally is that the retailer sends him an email notifying him that there is no service that day and arranging an automatic refund. If he has collected his tickets he would be advised to send them in for refund.

Still quite a bit of faff though ...

 

[Adam Williams]

An example I've just seen is Northern Rail from Widnes to Manchester Piccadilly. Departs Christmas Day 00.07 arrives 00.37.

Whilst I completely agree with Starmill, I am now less convinced services like this actually run in practice: https://timetables.trainsplit.com/times.aspx?uid=G34409&date=20211225

Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Piccadilly on 25/12/2020 | Train Timetable

Does anyone have any anecdotal evidence to the contrary of travelling past midnight on Christmas Eve?

 

[317 forever]

Whilst I completely agree with Starmill, I am now less convinced services like this actually run in practice: https://timetables.trainsplit.com/times.aspx?uid=G34409&date=20211225

Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Piccadilly on 25/12/2020 | Train Timetable

I agree, as I understand there is usually an early finish on Christmas Eve in the end.

However, keeping just to that leg of the journey, Trainsplit displayed

Split Ticketing with TrainSplit | Mobile App | Save up to 90%

TrainSplit compares routes & fares to get the best value through split ticketing with no booking fee & saving up to 90%

trainsplit.com

Your Outbound Journey, Sunday, 25 December, 2022​

Widnes
Manchester Piccadilly
30 mins
00:07
00:37

Northern train service to Manchester Piccadilly (details)

wait for 53 hrs, 29 mins. WARNING: LONG WAIT (info)

Manchester Piccadilly
Heaton Chapel
9 mins
06:06
06:15

Northern train service to Crewe (details)

 

[Adam Williams]

Depending on how the above person booked a train journey, what ought to happen morally is that the retailer sends him an email notifying him that there is no service that day and arranging an automatic refund. If he has collected his tickets he would be advised to send them in for refund.

Yeah, for what it's worth TrainSplit will do this as soon as the timetable changes and the service is cancelled. It's not quite a fully automated refund (customer might still want to travel on the next un-cancelled service - and they're allowed to do so without paying any extra under the NRCoT) but it's entirely self-service and possible to get refunded with a few clicks in most instances.

 

[greatkingrat]

Whilst I completely agree with Starmill, I am now less convinced services like this actually run in practice: https://timetables.trainsplit.com/times.aspx?uid=G34409&date=20211225

Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Piccadilly on 25/12/2020 | Train Timetable

Does anyone have any anecdotal evidence to the contrary of travelling past midnight on Christmas Eve?

http://charlwoodhouse.co.uk/rail/liverail/train/25298531/24/12/21

23:59 Stansted Airport - Liverpool Street arr 0050

 

[Adam Williams]

liverail 1609p
23:59 Stansted Airport - Liverpool Street arr 0050

Useful, ta

So all retailers blocking off Christmas Day are probably preventing customers booking e.g. the 00:22 from Broxbourne to London Liverpool Street

 

[TUC]

The reality is that planning in general needs more resources and better staff retention because otherwise these issues will just keep on happening. Given the current circumstances it seems very unlikely that recruitment or retention will improve any time soon though.

This sort of stuff is the bread and butter of super-basic good customer experience, but that just doesn't seem to be recognised. There's loads of things that are factors in poor customer satisfaction that are really difficult and expensive to solve e.g. infrastructure unreliability and chronic rolling stock shortage. In contrast simply not uploading the timetable incorrectly is, relatively speaking, quick and easy to solve. And yet...

It isn't even 'super-basic customer experience'. Setting ticketing systems so that all sales for 25 December are blocked unless a TOC individually unlocks them by exception should just be hardwired into the programming of ticketing systems. Christmas does, after all, happen every year.

 

[43066]

So if someone buys a ticket for Christmas Day, even if their heart of hearts believing the advertising of such tickets is an error, will the railway really be required to lay on alternative travel such as a taxi?

Yes, and there is a poster upthread who claims to have done just that, and that he will be demanding carriage on Christmas Day. From whom, exactly, nobody knows. Because there won’t be anyone to take the call. That has been pointed out, but he’s seemingly doing it anyway.

I’m just standing by for the thread on Boxing Day…

It isn't even 'super-basic customer experience'. Setting ticketing systems so that all sales for 25 December are blocked unless a TOC individually unlocks them by exception should just be hardwired into the programming of ticketing systems. Christmas does, after all, happen every year.

You really do like a moan, don’t you?!

 

[Adam Williams]

Setting ticketing systems so that all sales for 25 December are blocked unless a TOC individually unlocks

Why is this something that you think should be the responsibility of ticketing system providers (of which there are more than a handful!), rather than centrally within Network Rail's ITPS?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Why is this something that you think should be the responsibility of ticketing system providers (of which there are more than a handful!), rather than centrally within Network Rail's ITPS?

I'm always very wary of hard coding anything as things may change in the future, however unlikely that may seem.

 

[Adam Williams]

I'm always very wary of hard coding anything as things may change in the future, however unlikely that may seem.

I'm glad we agree on this point!

 

[TUC]

Why is this something that you think should be the responsibility of ticketing system providers (of which there are more than a handful!), rather than centrally within Network Rail's ITPS?

I wasn't meaning that. I meant centrally (i.e. via ITPS) locking 25 December by default, but with the flexibility for individual TOCs to unlock for specific services that are running.

Yes, and there is a poster upthread who claims to have done just that, and that he will be demanding carriage on Christmas Day. From whom, exactly, nobody knows. Because there won’t be anyone to take the call. That has been pointed out, but he’s seemingly doing it anyway.

I’m just standing by for the thread on Boxing Day…



You really do like a moan, don’t you?!

How is it moaning to expect basic service like setting systems to not sell tickets on days when services aren't running? Why is there a culture in the rail industry where some regard expecting the basics of good service that many other businesses run without even thinking about it as 'moaning'?