Worst Rail Routes for fare collection in members' experience?

[Mcr Warrior]

They where very common on the footbridge over to platforms 1 & 2.

Yes, there were ticket inspections taking place there (at the bottom of the overbridge steps nearby to the ticket office) last time I travelled through Preston just under a couple of weeks ago. Not usually anyone ever checking tickets at the mid-platform pedestrian underpass at Preston though, for some reason.

 

[VideozVideoz]

They where very common on the footbridge over to platforms 1 & 2.

What about when using platforms 3-4 and coming straight in from front entrance / going out via front entrance? I’ve never been accosted

Yes, there were ticket inspections taking place there (at the bottom of the overbridge steps nearby to the ticket office) last time I travelled through Preston just under a couple of weeks ago. Not usually anyone ever checking tickets at the mid-platform pedestrian underpass at Preston though, for some reason.

Underpass? I’ve not seen this! I usually use platforms 3&4 so where is this underpass?

 

[dk1]

What about when using platforms 3-4 and coming straight in from front entrance / going out via front entrance? I’ve never been accosted


Underpass? I’ve not seen this! I usually use platforms 3&4 so where is this underpass?

Underpass is further along around the middle of the station.

Not seen any checks on 3 & 4 or anywhere else but they are always welcome imo.

 

[VideozVideoz]

Underpass is further along around the middle of the station.

Not seen any checks on 3 & 4 or anywhere else but they are always welcome imo.

Where does this underpass come out? I know there’s a side entrance facing the Fishergate shopping centre

Preston seems ripe for having ticket barriers. Not sure why they’ve not introduced them yet

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Where does this underpass come out?

Midway along each of the platforms, with access to/from platforms 1+2, then 3+4, 5+6 and maybe also platform 7.

I know there’s a side entrance facing the Fishergate shopping centre

That's essentially the one via the footbridge/overbridge.

 

[Parallel]

Where does this underpass come out? I know there’s a side entrance facing the Fishergate shopping centre

Preston seems ripe for having ticket barriers. Not sure why they’ve not introduced them yet

Possibly left from Virgin Trains days, where the TOC permitted customers to buy on board. There are also no barriers at Warrington Bank Quay, Carlisle and probably numerous other Avanti stations that could probably do with them.

 

[philthetube]

The Preston underpass has lifts to allow disabled movement between platforms, I have also never seen it checked though the bridge from platforms 1/2 often is. In my recent experience it has become more common for ticket checks at the bottom of the ramp to the exit.

 

[DaventryRabbit]

Yesterday I had a day on the Isle of Wight and on the 3 Island Line Journeys I took I wasn't checked (Incidentally I had purchased a IOW Day Ranger).
All 3 Trains were not over busy and I noticed the Guards didn't even seem to be carrying Ticket Machines.
More Revenue Lost to SWR which IIRC loses about £5m a Year anyway?
Hope this hasn't been hardwired into the DFT Contracts i.e TOC's instructed to tell their staff not to sell tickets, revenue tumbles and, in the case of the IOW passenger numbers may rise as locals cotton on that its become a free ride 24/7 365 as opposed to their local buses where they know they have to pay.
As a result DFT Point to falling revenue as meaning falling usage and therefore not VFM For the Taxpayer and service levels get slashed....

 

[VideozVideoz]

Possibly left from Virgin Trains days, where the TOC permitted customers to buy on board. There are also no barriers at Warrington Bank Quay, Carlisle and probably numerous other Avanti stations that could probably do with them.

They are quite hot at Stoke on Trent. I arrived this week at 8.50pm and barriers were still up with staff still present milling around

The Preston underpass has lifts to allow disabled movement between platforms, I have also never seen it checked though the bridge from platforms 1/2 often is. In my recent experience it has become more common for ticket checks at the bottom of the ramp to the exit.

So you can’t get to the outside world from the underpass then?

 

[philthetube]

no

 

[AMD]

Should note that Preston has two underpasses, one only connecting the lifts and the second has stairs/ ramps from each platform and the platform 7 exit.

Preston seems ripe for having ticket barriers. Not sure why they’ve not introduced them yet

As another posted noted above Virgin wasn't keen on barriers, however Avanti are starting to move with proposals for Wigan NW in the pipeline. Preston however is a difficult station to barrier due to three entrances - the main entrance from Fishergate, footbridge from Butler St and P7 entrance from the car park. The Butler St entrance can't be barriered at present as there is no footprint within the station to put a barrier.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Where does this underpass come out? I know there’s a side entrance facing the Fishergate shopping centre

Preston seems ripe for having ticket barriers. Not sure why they’ve not introduced them yet

If you know anything about the layout of Preston and how people use it, you'd know gating it would be very difficult without a very major rebuild. Most notably the main entrance and exit is the tiny Fishergate Centre one.

A major redevelopment of that area is on the cards, so perhaps it will result in the station being changed, particularly if the booking office is to be closed, so you could gate the three separate entrances (car park, Fishergate and front) each with a couple of TVMs.

You could do a partial job by gating the ramp and the bridge to 1/2, but people know the other ways of getting around it and would just use them.

In BR days there did used to be a bloke in a hut at the Fishergate Centre entrance but I don't know what else there was.

 

[VideozVideoz]

If you know anything about the layout of Preston and how people use it, you'd know gating it would be very difficult without a very major rebuild. Most notably the main entrance and exit is the tiny Fishergate Centre one.

A major redevelopment of that area is on the cards, so perhaps it will result in the station being changed, particularly if the booking office is to be closed, so you could gate the three separate entrances (car park, Fishergate and front) each with a couple of TVMs.

You could do a partial job by gating the ramp and the bridge to 1/2, but people know the other ways of getting around it and would just use them.

In BR days there did used to be a bloke in a hut at the Fishergate Centre entrance but I don't know what else there was.

I never claimed to be an oracle of all things Preston station. I merely use it fairly regularly, am often in a rush and generally use platforms 3&4 from the main entrance or the side entrance. I’ve not had the luxury of studying the layout so things like the underpass, the car park entrance and the feasibility of ticket barriers is not something that I’ve ever noticed

 

[winks]

Yes there are some exceptions. There are some Non Commercial Guards and there are some DOO trains with staff selling tickets onboard. Like the example that you mentioned of Scotrail and also the SE OBMs and the SN OBSs too.

What i find interesting is that the Ticket Examiners on Scotrail will very commonly walk through the train and check and sell tickets. But yet the On Board Supervisors on Southern who perform the exact same job rarely ever walk through the train and check tickets and seem to mostly just sit down between stops and go on their phone or read the paper. It is very rare that a SN OBS checks tickets from my experience and normally if you want to buy one you have to go find them. So it is quite interesting how different TOCs have different attitudes to ticket checking.

Generally these days ticket checking is very rare. Even when i travel on trains with Commercial Guards or OBS or OBM onboard i find that SWR and GWR and SE and SN are all appalling at checking tickets. The staff on these four operators very rarely bother to check tickets.

SWR is a very odd one as they have a mixture of Commercial Guards (who check and sell tickets) and Non Commercial Guards (who do not check and sell tickets) but both types of Guards operate many of the same routes. So one day your train may have a Commercial Guard onboard and another day your train may have a Non Commercial Guard onboard. I have taken the same trains between the same places and it often seems quite random which type of Guard you will get.

Eurostar and Merseyrail are the only other operators with Non Commercial Guards but unlike SWR all of the Guards on Eurostar and Merseyrail are Non Commercial Guards and do not check or sell tickets.

I believe that C2C used to also have some Non Commercial Guards on their 12 coach trains (which they called "Train Captains" instead) until around 2018 or 2019 i think. I think the London Overground had Non Commercial Guards too until around 2013 or 2014 i believe.

So to summarise the current situation is:

Avanti West Coast, Caledonian Sleeper, Cross Country, East Midlands Railways, Grand Central, Hull Trains, Island Line, London North Eastern Railway, London North Western Railway, Northern, Trans Pennine Express, Translink Northern Ireland Railways, Transport For Wales, West Midlands Railway, all have Commercial Guards who sell tickets on 100% of their trains.

Eurostar, Merseyrail, both have Non Commercial Guards who do not sell tickets on 100% of their trains.

South Western Railway, have Guards on 100% of their trains but it is a mixture of Commercial Guards who sell tickets and Non Commercial Guards who do not sell tickets.

C2C, Great Northern, Heathrow Express, London Overground, Stansted Express, TFL Rail, Thameslink, are all fully DOO on 100% of their trains with the Driver being the one and only staff member onboard.

Chiltern Railways have Commercial Guards who sell tickets onboard 100% of trains North of Banbury and are fully DOO onboard 100% of trains South of Banbury with the Driver being the one and only staff member onboard.

Gatwick Express are 100% DOO with nobody other than the Driver onboard South of Gatwick and with an On Board Supervisor onboard North of Gatwick who sell tickets (but they are not guaranteed and the train can run without them due to staff shortages).

Southern have Commercial Guards who sell tickets onboard all 171/313 operated trains and onboard all Clapham Junction to Milton Keynes Central trains and onboard some Redhill to Tonbridge trains. They are 100% DOO but with an On Board Supervisor onboard all Coastway and Mainline 377/387 trains who sell tickets (but they are not guaranteed and the train can run without them due to staff shortages). They are 100% DOO with nobody other than the Driver onboard all Metro 377/387 trains.

So yes it is very complicating but some DOO trains do have other staff onboard to purchase your ticket from.

Not sure what you say is correct re GX. There is an OBS on at Brighton to Gatwick as I have travelled multiple times during the summer. They don’t always check tickets until Gatwick though. As they are probably concerned about passengers going fast to Vic without the correct ticket.

 

[Kilopylae]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but I've never once had a ticket checked between High Wycombe and Oxford. In the other direction I've sometimes even made it as far as Marylebone without being checked.

Oxford to Reading is also patchy compared with reasonably consistent XC checks heading north towards Birmingham (and separately the south west).

 

[busestrains]

Not sure what you say is correct re GX. There is an OBS on at Brighton to Gatwick as I have travelled multiple times during the summer. They don’t always check tickets until Gatwick though. As they are probably concerned about passengers going fast to Vic without the correct ticket.

I think this is a new thing since the Gatwick Express was reinstated after the Corona Virus suspended it for two years. Before the Corona Virus they were definitely only on the Gatwick Airport to London Victoria section. But i suppose as the service frequency has halved it makes sense to use the OBS on the Gatwick Airport to Brighton section too now.

 

[VideozVideoz]

I think this is a new thing since the Gatwick Express was reinstated after the Corona Virus suspended it for two years. Before the Corona Virus they were definitely only on the Gatwick Airport to London Victoria section. But i suppose as the service frequency has halved it makes sense to use the OBS on the Gatwick Airport to Brighton section too now.

I have never been checked between London, Croydon and Gatwick airport

 

[bramling]

Yesterday I had a day on the Isle of Wight and on the 3 Island Line Journeys I took I wasn't checked (Incidentally I had purchased a IOW Day Ranger).
All 3 Trains were not over busy and I noticed the Guards didn't even seem to be carrying Ticket Machines.
More Revenue Lost to SWR which IIRC loses about £5m a Year anyway?
Hope this hasn't been hardwired into the DFT Contracts i.e TOC's instructed to tell their staff not to sell tickets, revenue tumbles and, in the case of the IOW passenger numbers may rise as locals cotton on that its become a free ride 24/7 365 as opposed to their local buses where they know they have to pay.
As a result DFT Point to falling revenue as meaning falling usage and therefore not VFM For the Taxpayer and service levels get slashed....

Not sure what experience others have had, but I’ve always found the guards on the Island Line are quite thorough. I’d imagine all the more so on the D stock as its easier for them to get through the train. That said, when we were there earlier this year I did detect some cynicism, unusually for a small operation the staff could be overheard saying some pretty negative stuff.

 

[busestrains]

I have never been checked between London, Croydon and Gatwick airport

It is very rare for OBS to check tickets anywhere. I travel regularly on trains with OBS and they almost never walk through the train and check tickets. Most of the time they just sit down on their phone or reading the paper between stops and just quickly stick their head out the door at each stop. Honestly having OBS onboard trains is a huge waste of money.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is very rare for OBS to check tickets anywhere. I travel regularly on trains with OBS and they almost never walk through the train and check tickets. Most of the time they just sit down on their phone or reading the paper between stops and just quickly stick their head out the door at each stop. Honestly having OBS onboard trains is a huge waste of money.

With e-tickets I am not quite sure why they don't set scanning targets. There really is some very poor management on the railway - and this is my observation too.

With OBS there is no risk posed by strikes as the trains would still run, so they don't have any leverage to argue against it.

 

[pompeyfan]

Not sure what experience others have had, but I’ve always found the guards on the Island Line are quite thorough. I’d imagine all the more so on the D stock as its easier for them to get through the train. That said, when we were there earlier this year I did detect some cynicism, unusually for a small operation the staff could be overheard saying some pretty negative stuff.

I’m pretty certain (after reading a particular page on Facebook), that the attitude comes from the fact the island line has been absorbed into the wider SWR network from a control point of view where as they were largely self regulated.

With e-tickets I am not quite sure why they don't set scanning targets. There really is some very poor management on the railway - and this is my observation too.

With OBS there is no risk posed by strikes as the trains would still run, so they don't have any leverage to argue against it.

An acquaintance of mine explained that on TOCs like SWR where they’re working a full 10 or 12 car train it can appear the crew are being lazy however because of the sheer volume of passengers it can take the whole journey to get through the train.

In regards to an OBS strike, I’m pretty sure there’s a line in the ASLEF agreement saying all trains must be rostered an OBS, it would be interesting to know the legality and technicality.

I’ve seen a Tyrell message stating train xxxx will now run DOO to provide an OBS for a different train as the driver is known to enforce the rules.

Finally, I believe there are contingency OBS on Southern? Im not entirely sure why if blanket DOO isn’t a problem?

 

[Bletchleyite]

An acquaintance of mine explained that on TOCs like SWR where they’re working a full 10 or 12 car train it can appear the crew are being lazy however because of the sheer volume of passengers it can take the whole journey to get through the train.

We're talking about OBSs sitting around fiddling on their phones, not simply not seeing one. That's unmistakeable, and yes, I've seen it too.

And I've also seen LNR guards never leave the cab. Most of the time.

Laziness is endemic on several TOCs and I'd not be looking to make excuses for it.

 

[VideozVideoz]

Wrexham general, ticket checkers on the exit today. Not used this station a lot but first time I’ve seen it in action

 

[RPI]

We're talking about OBSs sitting around fiddling on their phones, not simply not seeing one. That's unmistakeable, and yes, I've seen it too.

And I've also seen LNR guards never leave the cab. Most of the time.

Laziness is endemic on several TOCs and I'd not be looking to make excuses for it.

I quite agree, I was impressed with Greater Anglia when I travelled on the Sheringham line a few times earlier this year, I was checked on every train, even between Cromer and Sheringham. Later I found out that the trains are effectively DOO from an operational point of view (I believe a guard still has to be on every service and they can operate the doors when required). There is a general laziness amongst a lot of guards at nearly all TOC's and its mostly down to bad management, it varies by depot too, not just TOC. I'm not going to bad mouth individual depots, but on a positive note I find that Exeter depot are generally quite proactive and the management are quite hot on it too, likewise Weymouth (GWR) depot are incredibly proactive, whenever we work with them they tip us off at every station about potential ticketless travellers and how many times such person has been warned etc, its a pleasure. I also find Fratton guards are generally proactive and are always incredibly happy to see us on the train.
Sadly, I don't get the pleasure of visiting the latter two places as much as I'd like for logistical reasons! Par also generally are pretty good.

 

[Amos]

London Northwestern must read the forum.I was on the 22.01 from Euston last night and the guard was round within 45 seconds of leaving Euston. I hope he was on commission,as he would have earned a fortune on the amount of tickets he sold. I was also surprised to see that the barriers were still closed with 2 staff members present when we got back to Milton Keynes at 23.05.

 

[pompeyfan]

We're talking about OBSs sitting around fiddling on their phones, not simply not seeing one. That's unmistakeable, and yes, I've seen it too.

And I've also seen LNR guards never leave the cab. Most of the time.

Laziness is endemic on several TOCs and I'd not be looking to make excuses for it.

Agreed sitting around for an excess amount of time on candy crush or locking yourself away in an intermediate cab for the entire journey is very poor, all I’m trying to say is that there are logistical reasons too, especially routes with multiple short platforms such as both routes to Portsmouth, and through the New Forest.

How long is too long to be idle in the public eye though?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How long is too long to be idle in the public eye though?

I'd expect that on a typical 8 car 1 hour gangwayed South East commuter service, at least one full check would be completed.

 

[winks]

The OBS staff on Gatwick Express now announce over the PA that any ticket Thameslink or Southern are valid up to Gatwick. After that, the correct GX ticket must be held. I don’t remember this being the policy before covid ?

 

[43066]

We're talking about OBSs sitting around fiddling on their phones, not simply not seeing one. That's unmistakeable, and yes, I've seen it too.

Perhaps they spend all day posting on here when they’re really supposed to be working….

 

[387star]

Very rare to be checked on Southern. Often they announce the are walking through the train but never show presumably because they are at certain positions for short platforms. Although technically DOO there are more similarities with the Guard role than originally envisaged ie keying in at each station.