Caledonian Sleeper: How should it be run and what changes would you like to see?

[paul1609]

They aren't great, but they are a step up from a road coach. Road coach seats might recline more, but you're squashed up against someone the whole time. Fine if they're your partner, but definitely not otherwise

Doesn't really bother me tbh. I much prefer the subdued lighting on the coach and the lack of movement that seems to accompany any sort of station stop. The coach only stops at Lancaster services sometimes just for a driver change sometimes you get 30 mins for a green tea. The alcohol ban also means that you don't get to share the night with the Stag and Hen and Student Parties that seem to be a staple client of the Lowlander seats. Arrival times for places like Stirling and Perth are also much more sensible. On the coach Im often asleep before passing Watford on the M1.

 

[Davester50]

Carnoustie has to be open 24/7 as it's the fringe box for Dundee panel and controls at least one manual level crossing.

Well, it must have been a Friday night I was staggering home, as this says it closes on a Saturday night! Not applicable for the sleeper, so the context of the post I was replying to saying the boxes were closed at night was not correct.

I came across this document on the public part of the Network Rail website which gives opening and closing times of signal boxes around the system.

www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Compendium-of-Signal-Box-Opening-Times.pdf

 

[XAM2175]

I much prefer the subdued lighting on the coach ...

Come to think of it, if CS ever become subject to FoI it'd be interesting to ask them if they received specific guidance on how bright the lighting needs to be.

 

[Sm5]

As the thread is speculative…

changes i’d like is :


earlier boarding times at the end points…at least an hour earlier, perhaps 2 ..

1. negates need for lounges at the starting stations.
2. Gives a more “hotel” experience to going to your room
3. oppourtunity for room service / restaurant access.
4. own branded tat to sell.. its a niche train used by tourists.. sell them this stuff.
5. Upgrade the breakfast to a real breakfast, inc opening the kitchen early.
6. Slightly later deboarding at the terminus stations.. not everyone wants out at 7am at Euston.. 830 would be nice, the stock hangs around anyway.
7. onboard entertainment.. rent a film to people to stream etc…
8. Offer Pre/Post services.. taxi/car transfers, baggage transfer, showering services and hotel link ups.. make it more seemless.
9. create a Frequent traveller program and tie into Airline / Hotel promotion cards.

My experience from Inverness was having dinner at the pub after arriving from Wick… killing a few hours…whilst the CS stock was locked up in the platform.

That could have been an earlier “check in” and dinner on the train before departure.

The dining car had largely sold out of food anyway, as those luxury Scottish dishes, were apparently loaded up 24 hours earlier in London, and after a busy northbound everything had gone.

Similarly breakfast was a pot noodle type thing with some salty porridge in it.. i’d have paid for a full breakfast as room service or the dining car.. had the option had been there.

Still I cant complain, the train was 2.5 hours late so I got a 100% refund on that fantastic nights sleep and what is a very nice train, that is worth much more than what I paid… and more than I paid at the Holiday Inn, Inverness.

The train could have fleeced us two an extra £100 than it did in extras, on what we felt was a cheap night in a decent hotel, that just happened to move.
The full refund was disproportionate.. we still got a nights sleep..

it imo needs to be managed more like a 4/5 star Hotel and less like a Train.

 

[Norther Monkey]

The "central belt" is fairly large, can you put the details to a specific scenario? Let's say a business meeting in Central London at 0900 on a Monday, departing from Helensburgh (either that morning or after 2000 plus hotel) - all by public transport and with shower and changing facilities at the London end before arrival at end destination (place of work).


Yes I do. The quality of life, the cleaner air, the different legal system etc are all motivators to live in Scotland.

Isn't Helensburgh on the Highlander route?

 

[D6130]

Isn't Helensburgh on the Highlander route?

It is indeed....calling at Helensburgh Upper rather than Central.

 

[XAM2175]

earlier boarding times at the end points…at least an hour earlier, perhaps 2 ..

1. negates need for lounges at the starting stations.
...
6. Slightly later deboarding at the terminus stations.. not everyone wants out at 7am at Euston.. 830 would be nice, the stock hangs around anyway.

Trouble is that once you're on you have to take a seat in the lounge or you're left sitting on your bed.

 

[paul1609]

Exactly this - if you want full working days before and after the travel, the CS is ideal.

The "central belt" is fairly large, can you put the details to a specific scenario? Let's say a business meeting in Central London at 0900 on a Monday, departing from Helensburgh (either that morning or after 2000 plus hotel) - all by public transport and with shower and changing facilities at the London end before arrival at end destination (place of work).


Yes I do. The quality of life, the cleaner air, the different legal system etc are all motivators to live in Scotland.

I can say with some authority having used the sleeper from Garelochead to London for many years that virtually nobody boards the sleeper at Helensburgh Upper. In fact "business" travel down to London from the whole West Highland Line is virtually nil. Its primarily tourist with a smattering of London based people travelling to their largely seasonal hospitality businesses. There is a lot of railway people travelling on Privs.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Come to think of it, if CS ever become subject to FoI it'd be interesting to ask them if they received specific guidance on how bright the lighting needs to be.

Does the lighting stay on all night on the CS? The seated coaches on the French sleepers have the lighting turned off completely in the saloons*. I'm guessing that the rules in both countries come from the same TSI (despite Brexit), so is the difference just down to how the rules have been interpreted?

*=lighting stays on in the vestibules, and as the end doors are mostly glass there's a fair bit of bleed through from there.

 

[JonathanH]

Does the lighting stay on all night on the CS?

Yes, the lighting is very slightly dimmed from full lighting but still bright. If you board after the initial dimming you would think that is the normal setting.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yes, the lighting is very slightly dimmed from full lighting but still bright. If you board after the initial dimming you would think that is the normal setting.

The only UK sleepers I've used is the Night Riviera over ten years ago, and always in the seated coach as my destination was Taunton at 3am. I did remember the lights being on, but as I wasn't sleeping it didn't bother me. Might be my memory playing tricks, but I think there were airline-style sleep-masks available for those who wanted them.

On the French one, the coach was in near darkness in the middle of the saloon, and not much worse at the ends where I was despite the bleed from the vestibules. Unfortunately there was also a group of Germans playing cards by torchlight until a steward came along to growl at them at 0430!

 

[JonathanH]

Might be my memory playing tricks, but I think there were airline-style sleep-masks available for those who wanted them.

Sleep masks are provided and, in my view, are necessary.

 

[JamieL]

I can say with some authority having used the sleeper from Garelochead to London for many years that virtually nobody boards the sleeper at Helensburgh Upper. In fact "business" travel down to London from the whole West Highland Line is virtually nil. Its primarily tourist with a smattering of London based people travelling to their largely seasonal hospitality businesses. There is a lot of railway people travelling on Privs.

Well I use it for business and have been doing so regularly since Avanti ceased being a viable. I vary between boarding the Highlander at HLU and using the North Clyde Line to go into Glasgow to board the Lowlander - the latter having the benefit of arriving earlier. When boarding at HLU, there are normally at least 1 other passenger, Glasgow for the lowlander is (obviously) much busier. And this really is key - overall both CS provides an important means of overnight transport.

Isn't Helensburgh on the Highlander route?

It is indeed....calling at Helensburgh Upper rather than Central.

It is - but many also get the train into Glasgow for the lowlander given it is cheaper and arrives earlier. But the key reason I picked Helensburgh is because it is a town that has many rich residents who do commute long distance for work and, given it is reasonably close to Glasgow Airport, could be expected to fly if the option is there. Hence why I set the challenge of a non-CS solution that achieves "a business meeting in Central London at 0900 on a Monday, departing from Helensburgh (either that morning or after 2000 plus hotel) - all by public transport and with shower and changing facilities at the London end before arrival at end destination (place of work)". Any takers?

 

[XAM2175]

The seated coaches on the French sleepers have the lighting turned off completely in the saloons*. I'm guessing that the rules in both countries come from the same TSI (despite Brexit), so is the difference just down to how the rules have been interpreted?

Yes, we suspected over-enthusiastic interpretation when it was first brought up, but I'd be interested to see if they give definitive answer.

 

[paul1609]

Well I use it for business and have been doing so regularly since Avanti ceased being a viable. I vary between boarding the Highlander at HLU and using the North Clyde Line to go into Glasgow to board the Lowlander - the latter having the benefit of arriving earlier. When boarding at HLU, there are normally at least 1 other passenger, Glasgow for the lowlander is (obviously) much busier. And this really is key - overall both CS provides an important means of overnight transport.




It is - but many also get the train into Glasgow for the lowlander given it is cheaper and arrives earlier. But the key reason I picked Helensburgh is because it is a town that has many rich residents who do commute long distance for work and, given it is reasonably close to Glasgow Airport, could be expected to fly if the option is there. Hence why I set the challenge of a non-CS solution that achieves "a business meeting in Central London at 0900 on a Monday, departing from Helensburgh (either that morning or after 2000 plus hotel) - all by public transport and with shower and changing facilities at the London end before arrival at end destination (place of work)". Any takers?

So how many times have you boarded at Helensburgh in the last year?
Most people will be on the 06.15 to London City or the 20.15 the night before realistically if you've driven from Helensburgh sat in Starbucks for 30 mins and a plane for just over an hour you're not really going to need a shower (unless you're a submariner)
There's not many organisations that still have business meetings in Central London at 09.00 unless there's time zone considerations either.

 

[Norther Monkey]

It is - but many also get the train into Glasgow for the lowlander given it is cheaper and arrives earlier. But the key reason I picked Helensburgh is because it is a town that has many rich residents who do commute long distance for work and, given it is reasonably close to Glasgow Airport, could be expected to fly if the option is there. Hence why I set the challenge of a non-CS solution that achieves "a business meeting in Central London at 0900 on a Monday, departing from Helensburgh (either that morning or after 2000 plus hotel) - all by public transport and with shower and changing facilities at the London end before arrival at end destination (place of work)". Any takers?

I'm not sure there would be, particularly on a Sunday. The fact is though that, for your circumstances, the Highlander provides a solution. This scenario does not therefore seem to be a great argument for keeping the Lowlander.

 

[JamieL]

So how many times have you boarded at Helensburgh in the last year?
Most people will be on the 06.15 to London City or the 20.15 the night before realistically if you've driven from Helensburgh sat in Starbucks for 30 mins and a plane for just over an hour you're not really going to need a shower (unless you're a submariner)
There's not many organisations that still have business meetings in Central London at 09.00 unless there's time zone considerations either.

Probably about a dozen or so times. But the key here is - as Northern Monkey says - you can't. The 0615 flight requires you to be at the airport for 0545, which means a 0445 departure from Helensburgh. The 2015 requires a 1945 arrive so 1845 departure - well before the time I set and something that would really constrain your Sunday if you did it regularly. As for the highlander/lowlander issue, you can substitute Helensburgh for the services spiking out from Glasgow and Edinburgh.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yes, we suspected over-enthusiastic interpretation when it was first brought up, but I'd be interested to see if they give definitive answer.

It could of course just be SNCF ignoring the TSI... they do have form for doing so in other areas.

 

[Bald Rick]

]


It is - but many also get the train into Glasgow for the lowlander given it is cheaper and arrives earlier. But the key reason I picked Helensburgh is because it is a town that has many rich residents who do commute long distance for work and, given it is reasonably close to Glasgow Airport, could be expected to fly if the option is there. Hence why I set the challenge of a non-CS solution that achieves "a business meeting in Central London at 0900 on a Monday, departing from Helensburgh (either that morning or after 2000 plus hotel) - all by public transport and with shower and changing facilities at the London end before arrival at end destination (place of work)". Any takers?

Easy.

Taxi to GLA. 0615 to LHR, giving you 90 minutes from arrival to anywhere in central London (easily done), or 0630 to LCY giving you 55 minutes (Even easier).

And if you live in Helensburgh, and have a business meeting at 0900, and an expenses policy that can stretch to the sleeper, then you’d expect it to stretch to a taxi from home to the airport at 0430.

And I’ll have my shower at home, thanks.

 

[paul1609]

Probably about a dozen or so times. But the key here is - as Northern Monkey says - you can't. The 0615 flight requires you to be at the airport for 0545, which means a 0445 departure from Helensburgh. The 2015 requires a 1945 arrive so 1845 departure - well before the time I set and something that would really constrain your Sunday if you did it regularly. As for the highlander/lowlander issue, you can substitute Helensburgh for the services spiking out from Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Easy.

Taxi to GLA. 0615 to LHR, giving you 90 minutes from arrival to anywhere in central London (easily done), or 0630 to LCY giving you 55 minutes (Even easier).

And if you live in Helensburgh, and have a business meeting at 0900, and an expenses policy that can stretch to the sleeper, then you’d expect it to stretch to a taxi from home to the airport at 0430.

And I’ll have my shower at home, thanks.

And even if you don't work for Network Rail on a Sunday there's a 21.20 to Gatwick £33.99 next weekend so you can easily afford the 30 mins taxi from Helensburgh, later on Monday and Fridays. Precovid there was also a BA flight that got in around 23.45

 

[JamieL]

Easy.

Taxi to GLA. 0615 to LHR, giving you 90 minutes from arrival to anywhere in central London (easily done), or 0630 to LCY giving you 55 minutes (Even easier).

And if you live in Helensburgh, and have a business meeting at 0900, and an expenses policy that can stretch to the sleeper, then you’d expect it to stretch to a taxi from home to the airport at 0430.

And I’ll have my shower at home, thanks.

Taxi's are inherently unreliable, especially at that time in the morning. There will be no taxis on the town stand at that time - and so what if the pre-booked service doesn't turn up? Not to mention that the taxi alone, before flight and onward travel, is going to be almost as much as the CS.

 

[XAM2175]

It could of course just be SNCF ignoring the TSI... they do have form for doing so in other areas.

More likely that the French never imposed an "everything built or upgraded into compliance by x date" rule, unlike here - but your suggestion is entirely possible too

I went to check what the TSI actually does say, but the drafters very cheekily saved themselves a bunch of effort and just put this in:

4.2.2.4. Lighting
(1) Minimum values of average illuminance in the passenger areas shall be according to point 4.1.2 of the specification referenced in Appendix A, index 6. Requirements relative to the uniformity of these values are not applicable for conformity with this TSI.

But the specification referred to at index 6 of Appendix A is EN 13272:2012, and I'm not interested enough in the answer to actually spend money on buying a copy of it.

 

[paul1609]

Taxi's are inherently unreliable, especially at that time in the morning. There will be no taxis on the town stand at that time - and so what if the pre-booked service doesn't turn up? Not to mention that the taxi alone, before flight and onward travel, is going to be almost as much as the CS.

Mikes Taxis or Royal Cabs have never let me down. circa £65 from the Base to Glasgow airport and vice versa even in the middle of the night.

 

[Bald Rick]

Taxi's are inherently unreliable, especially at that time in the morning.

No they’re not, they are very reliable. Every taxi I have ever booked for an airport transfer at that time of day has turned up early, and got me to the airport earlier than I expected. (At least 50 occasions). I wish I could say the same about early buses and trains.

There will be no taxis on the town stand at that time - and so what if the pre-booked service doesn't turn up?

It will turn up. What if the bus or train doesn’t?

Not to mention that the taxi alone, before flight and onward travel, is going to be almost as much as the CS.

a taxi from Helensbrugh to GLA is about £50. Rather less than a bed on the sleeper, no?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yes, we suspected over-enthusiastic interpretation when it was first brought up, but I'd be interested to see if they give definitive answer.

Until about 30 odd years ago, the lights were fully off in the saloons on the seated part of the Sleeper; I did several trips in such conditions.

Once they started leaving the lights on... that was when I switched to using the berths... my first trip in the berths was in the first half of 1992, so by that point the seated lights were on all night.

 

[JonathanH]

Once they started leaving the lights on... that was when I switched to using the berths... my first trip in the berths was in the first half of 1992, so by that point the seated lights were on all night.

It was however possible to get the guards to switch off alternate lights in the Mark 2 vehicles, which helped a bit.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

It was however possible to get the guards to switch off alternate lights in the Mark 2 vehicles, which helped a bit.

True, but that's still nowhere near as relaxing as having the whole lot switched off.

 

[markymark2000]

One of the things I would say is why were the MK5s built with 2 sets of doors on each side? Couldn't have gotten away with 1 set of doors on each side? The number of people in each sleeper is maximum 20 people so the risk in an emergency would be lower, not 70 pax trying to all get out of a single door. Boarding/alighting times don't matter either on the CS. If they built them with only 1 set of doors per carriage (except accessible sleeper cabins), they could have squeezed in an extra classic cabin in each non accessible sleeper cabin, using just the classic room supplement (normal fares are harder to calculate), you could be looking at £2340 per day for the sleeper (covering all 4 services), £730k per annum extra revenue. Add in if someone is buying travel with CS as well or the passengers buy anything onboard, that's additional. If you reduce seated to 1 set of doors, that's likely an additional 2 rows of seats (so 6 seats altogether), that's more revenue. You could easily be looing at significant amounts of additional revenue, far over £1m per year. Huge financial gain from reducing to a single set of doors per carriage (except accessible sleeper cabins)



How does the CS work in terms of staffing? Drivers I guess it's all down to GBRF but what about other staff? Where are they based and what is the situation for staff who work the whole train, how much does that cost roughly to CS to hotel them (and any possibly expenses) since some staff must do the train down, hotel for the sleep through the day then run the one back up next day?
I am thinking could catering stop at Edinburgh (highlander) and Carlisle (lowlander) southbound and Preston (both) northbound. You have a catering blackspot then between those stations and Preston but that is the middle of the night so unlikely to cause an issue. Then, the crews swap services and head the opposite way towards 'home'. This then means that all crew return home each day so saving on any costs associated with overnights. If there are any other none essential staff, that could also be an idea given that almost all passengers will be asleep during these stations so the potential to save money is rather high.

 

[matacaster]

By that logic, since I don't have any children I should be free to opt out of paying for schools, since I derive no direct benefit.

It boils down to what role you see for the railways and what societal benefit they provide. If the primary focus is the bottom line they you'll be disappointed.

The thing that is odd here is that you are actually subsidising comparatively rich people (no plebs will be able to afford the sleeper). These people can and should pay the full cost of the service. The sleeper service should at least break even. Why on earth should poor folk subsidise it?

 

[JamieL]

The thing that is odd here is that you are actually subsidising comparatively rich people (no plebs will be able to afford the sleeper). These people can and should pay the full cost of the service. The sleeper service should at least break even. Why on earth should poor folk subsidise it?

This has already been discussed. It is the benefits it brings to Scotland associated with tourism and commuters. Furthermore, the seats aren't expensive.