LNER A4s in service.

[Harvester]

I doubt even the A4s reached 90mph much/at all when they were in service?

mods note - split from here.

Have you never heard of a guy called Bill Hoole?

 

[Class08Shunter]

Have you never heard of a guy called Bill Hoole?

He's a train driver.

 

[zwk500]

I doubt even the A4s reached 90mph much/at all when they were in service?

A4s did, but they were generally reserved for the special expresses with limited loads. A1s and A3s like Tornado or Flying Scotsman were normally running around 70-80mph depending on the load, I think.

 

[Harvester]

He's a train driver.

Based at Top Shed. He had a bit of a reputation regarding high speed running especially with A4s.

 

[Spamcan81]

Thanks - hadn’t realised that. Indeed, quite something to behold.

I doubt even the A4s reached 90mph much/at all when they were in service?

Oh yes they did. 90 mph was common on the pre war streamliners. Post war there’s plenty of records of high speed runs when drivers were trying to make up time. Ted Hailstone and Bill Hoole were legends in that department.

Based at Top Shed. He had a bit of a reputation regarding high speed running especially with A4s.

A legend.

 

[43066]

Have you never heard of a guy called Bill Hoole?

Based at Top Shed. He had a bit of a reputation regarding high speed running especially with A4s.

I hadn’t, but I have now. Thanks.

Oh yes they did. 90 mph was common on the pre war streamliners. Post war there’s plenty of records of high speed runs when drivers were trying to make up time. Ted Hailstone and Bill Hoole were legends in that department.

Oh for the days before data recorders!

 

[Class08Shunter]

Based at Top Shed. He had a bit of a reputation regarding high speed running especially with A4s.

Well I never knew that about him.

 

[Harvester]

Oh for the days before data recorders!

Bill Hoole was caught out by a Hallade recorder back in the fifties. He was covering for another driver on A4 60007, and didn’t realise a recorder and technicians were on the train doing routine recordings. A maximum speed of 117mph, down Stoke Bank, showed on the Hallade trace when the data was examined.

 

[Spamcan81]

Bill Hoole was caught out by a Hallade recorder back in the fifties. He was covering for another driver on A4 60007, and didn’t realise a recorder and technicians were on the train doing routine recordings. A maximum speed of 117mph, down Stoke Bank, showed on the Hallade trace when the data was examined.

Bill remained convinced that on the 1959 run, when 112.5 was achieved down Stoke Bank, that he could have got to 126 and beyond had he not been told to slow down. 100 was the maximum that had been agreed but Bill turned a blind eye to that. His reasoning was that he'd got 60007 over the top of Stoke Bank faster than 4468 in 1938 and thus was in better shape to go for the record. We will never know of course.

 

[Harvester]

Bill remained convinced that on the 1959 run, when 112.5 was achieved down Stoke Bank, that he could have got to 126 and beyond had he not been told to slow down. 100 was the maximum that had been agreed but Bill turned a blind eye to that. His reasoning was that he'd got 60007 over the top of Stoke Bank faster than 4468 in 1938 and thus was in better shape to go for the record. We will never know of course.

The special had been given approval to run at 110mph down Stoke Bank, but with two inspectors on the footplate Bill had no option but to to ease off when told, after 112mph was reached.

If there had been no inspectors on board, well anything could have happened. He had the speed and boiler pressure to keep on accelerating after reaching 112 mph, and seven or eight more miles before a required brake application for the Essendine curve. We shall never know.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Oh yes they did. 90 mph was common on the pre war streamliners. Post war there’s plenty of records of high speed runs when drivers were trying to make up time. Ted Hailstone and Bill Hoole were legends in that department.

The pre-war streamliners were very limited loads (7 carriages weren't they? So about 260 tons gross) and given special operating conditions, such as double block signalling, I believe.

"Post war" covers c 18 years (45 - 63) and I doubt 90 mph plus was achieved much from 1945 - c 1953 because a) loads were too heavy, b) schedules didn't need it and c) Locos were not in the condition to make such speeds and d) I suspect even the 'gung-ho' drivers were not that gung-ho given the condition of the track.

Of course, things got better over time. So later, yes you saw the odd run in TI with mid-90s down Stoke, or perhaps Darlo - York, but I'd need more evidence to believe these were the norm.

A4s did, but they were generally reserved for the special expresses with limited loads. A1s and A3s like Tornado or Flying Scotsman were normally running around 70-80mph depending on the load, I think.

Yes, this is my impression too. The schedules and loads precluded 90 or 90+ running in normal service, and even if a driver was able to take a regular 350 - 380 ton train up to 90 or more, chance are he would soon receive a signal check. Even in 1961 there were trains on the ECML (eg Cleethorpes daily, and all sorts on summer Saturdays) worked by B1s, which I'd say would struggle to reach 70 mph on the level.

From what I've read, the Gresely pacifics' strength was to work 10-12 coach trains up to 70-75 mph and keep them there, and almost maintaing such speeds going uphill. This was no mean feat in steam days.

I don't know if there were any 'flagship' light-weight trains on the ECML in 1960 with steam - what loads and timings did The Elizabethan have? Did it need to run at 90 mph regularly to keep time? My impression was that it was a regular load of about 11 carriages with regular timings - just it was non-stop. (Yes, I did see it behind A4s, but as a child, I just stared in awe and didn't ponder the details.)

 

[Enthusiast]

My impression was that it was a regular load of about 11 carriages with regular timings - just it was non-stop. (Yes, I did see it behind A4s, but as a child, I just stared in awe and didn't ponder the details.)

I saw The Elizabethan many times. As far as I can recall it was a standard length train of around ten coaches. Its schedule for the 393 miles was 390 minutes, so a tad over 60mph average.

Originally there were 35 locomotives ( 60001 - 60034 ) but what is to say a 36th loco could be built although its number would be out of sequence as the next number in the sequence ( 60035 ) was allocated to an A3 ( Windsor Lad I believe ).

Slight correction: Although there were originally 35 A4s, only 34 survived beyond WW2. The original "Sir Ralph Wedgwood" (originally named "Gadwall") was damaged beyond repair by a bomb at York station in April 1942. Sir Ralph Wedgwood only ever ran under its original LNER number, 4469. It did not survive to receive the revised LNER numbers with which all the other A4s were endowed (in the series 1 to 34) and nor, of course did it receive a BR number which the A4s enjoyed (60001 - 60034). And yes, Windsor Lad was 60035.

On page 100 of my 1961 Ian Allan "combined" volume (price 10s/6d) I am proud to say that all 34 A4s are underlined. I remember that 60004 "William Whitelaw" was the one A4 that had eluded me. I learned that it was an unreliable locomotive, based at Edinburgh Haymarket shed and that it rarely ventured south of Newcastle. But it did visit Kings Cross one day whilst I was at Finsbury Park. The story goes that it had been sent to Doncaster for some major work and after emerging, it was sent south on a "running in" trip.

I believe that post war schedules requiring sustained high speed running by steam hauled trains were rare. One exception was possibly The Bristolian, which eventually had a schedule of 100 minutes for the 118 miles from Paddington to Temple Meads. This called for 100mph running by the Kings and Castles that pulled the train.

 

[Railcar]

Having seen Mallard come steaming from Kings Cross and disappear into the Wood Green Tunnels in the 1950s, I consider myself privileged.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I saw The Elizabethan many times. As far as I can recall it was a standard length train of around ten coaches. Its schedule for the 393 miles was 390 minutes, so a tad over 60mph average.

Thks for confirmation on load. Of course, a 60 mph average would have needed sustained running at c 75 mph for long distance.

I believe that post war schedules requiring sustained high speed running by steam hauled trains were rare. One exception was possibly The Bristolian, which eventually had a schedule of 100 minutes for the 118 miles from Paddington to Temple Meads. This called for 100mph running by the Kings and Castles that pulled the train.

[Going more OT than ever.] But it didn't, in fact.
I was going to mention The Bristolian in my original post, but decided it would be too OT. But as you've brought it up - it required sustained running at 80 - 85 mph and no more.

As I'm sure @Taunton could confirm, you can find many runs of this train where, from west of Swindon to somewhere like Old Oak Common the speed is continuously in the narrow 80-85 mph band (except, of course, for PSRs like Reading) not even touching 90 mph. I take my hat off* to those WR crews for driving so steadily and economically, keeping to time with such sustained running and avoiding the need for (expensive) bursts of higher speed.

Of course, I'm not saying they never had to go into the 90s or even to 100 mph to make up time for out-of-course delays, but it was not needed on a daily basis.

But as you say, this was a specially loaded train - 7 carriages Monday - Thursday, 8 on a Friday with a King. Very limited load - putting 10 or 11 behind a Castle and easing the schedule for the rest of the day was probably far more profitable (or less of a loss maker).

* Though it hurts. That's my one bit of praise for the GWR for 2022. No need for any more this year.

 

[Enthusiast]

[Going more OT than ever.] But it didn't, in fact.
I was going to mention The Bristolian in my original post, but decided it would be too OT. But as you've brought it up - it required sustained running at 80 - 85 mph and no more.

* Though it hurts. That's my one bit of praise for the GWR for 2022. No need for any more this year.

Thanks for that. My gricer days rarely took me to GWR property and my recollection of The Bristolian is probably jaundiced by the marketing of it at the time. Posters depicting a steam loco at full speed, with the motion blurred were part of the romantic portrayal. Though not specifically the Bristolian, the attached is the sort of thing I have in mind. I'm sure there was a similar poster of the Bristolian but I cannot find it immediately.

Anyway, enough OT or we'll be in trouble.

 

[Harvester]

Thks for confirmation on load. Of course, a 60 mph average would have needed sustained running at c 75 mph for long distance.

There are a couple of interesting logs in the April 1962 issue of Modern Railways, of southbound runs by the Elizabethan during the 1961 summer (the last of steam haulage). Both loads were 10 coaches (380 tons gross) and the schedule was 395 minutes.

The first was a full length log of a run behind A4 60024, were numerous checks and two dead stands were encountered on route. Speed only reached the lower eighties at a few locations, but Finsbury Park was passed two minutes early. Then no clear path into Kings Cross, resulting in a two minute late arrival for Kingfisher.

The second log (Grantham-Kings Cross) was of a run behind 60009, which passed Grantham, 10 minutes late. The crew recovered all the arrears before Kings Cross with some excellent running, including a 92mph max down Stoke bank. The speed over the forty miles from Huntingdon to Hatfield varied from the mid seventies to the mid eighties, and this was from an engine that had already covered 300 plus miles non stop.

 

[70014IronDuke]

There are a couple of interesting logs in the April 1962 issue of Modern Railways, of southbound runs by the Elizabethan during the 1961 summer (the last of steam haulage). Both loads were 10 coaches (380 tons gross) and the schedule was 395 minutes.

The first was a full length log of a run behind A4 60024, were numerous checks and two dead stands were encountered on route. Speed only reached the lower eighties at a few locations, but Finsbury Park was passed two minutes early. Then no clear path into Kings Cross, resulting in a two minute late arrival for Kingfisher.

The second log (Grantham-Kings Cross) was of a run behind 60009, which passed Grantham, 10 minutes late. The crew recovered all the arrears before Kings Cross with some excellent running, including a 92mph max down Stoke bank. The speed over the forty miles from Huntingdon to Hatfield varied from the mid seventies to the mid eighties, and this was from an engine that had already covered 300 plus miles non stop.

Again, excellent engiinemanship. Instead of going for the spectacular down Stoke (and risking something going wrong), where he surely could have got to 100 if pushed, the driver went for the tougher, but far more economical option, ie to average c 80 mph for forty miles. Top Shed crew driving south of York, I presume.

I suspect the signal boxes were very careful to give him a clear road too.

I wonder if the operations department noted these sort of perfomances and - long before the age of tweeting - sent out messages somehow to congratulate all involved. More likely, I suspect, it was just considered a job well done by the insiders as a matter of course.

Was the Elizabethan still steam in 62? I seem to remember last seeing a 64B A4 on the job in 61.

 

[Harvester]

Having seen Mallard come steaming from Kings Cross and disappear into the Wood Green Tunnels in the 1950s, I consider myself privileged.

Can still remember the first time I saw Mallard. I was at Darlington station and 60022 arrived in rather grimy condition with a northbound express. Hence I assumed, as it approached, that it would be Gateshead A4, but then got a pleasant surprise when the number came into view.

 

[Harvester]

Was the Elizabethan still steam in 62? I seem to remember last seeing a 64B A4 on the job in 61.

It was booked for Deltic haulage, with a six hour schedule from 1962, with a Newcastle stop inserted for a crew change. IIRC this became necessary because some crews objected to travelling in the noisy Deltic cabs for six hours and above. The following summer it lost it’s Elizabethan title and just ran as relief to the Flying Scotsman.

 

[Enthusiast]

Was the Elizabethan still steam in 62? I seem to remember last seeing a 64B A4 on the job in 61.

The summer only “Capitals Limited” was the inaugural post-war London-Edinburgh non-stop service introduced in 1949. The “Flying Scotsman” had been reinstated after its war time hiatus but as a stopping service. The Capitals Limited was renamed The Elizabethan in the summer of 1953 to mark the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II. 60028 Walter K. Whigham hauled the inaugural northbound service on 29th June. It was last hauled by steam on 8th September 1961. The northbound service that day was hauled by Mallard. After then, the Deltics took over and the era of regular non-stop services between London and Scotland came to a close.

 

[Harvester]

The Capitals Limited was renamed The Elizabethan in the summer of 1953 to mark the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II. 60028 Walter K. Whigham hauled the inaugural northbound service on 29th June.

This was also the only summer (1953) that Haymarket used the elusive 60004 William Whitelaw on the Elizabethan with some regularity. 60004 made a couple more return runs in 1956, and one in 1958, before failing at Doncaster on it’s next and last appearance on the train. Consequently the up Elizabethan arrived at Kings Cross that day (29/8/58) behind a V2.

 

[D6130]

Mallard broke the speed record for steam engines in 1938.

This was also the only summer (1953) that Haymarket used the elusive 60004 William Whitelaw on the Elizabethan with some regularity. 60004 made a couple more return runs in 1956, and one in 1958, before failing at Doncaster on it’s next and last appearance on the train. Consequently the up Elizabethan arrived at Kings Cross that day (29/8/58) behind a V2.

At the risk of going off-topic yet again, for those who have never seen it, the 1953 British Transport Film "Elizabethan Express" - featuring 60017 "Silver Fox" - is well worth watching. I believe that it's available on YouTube.

 

[Enthusiast]

This was also the only summer (1953) that Haymarket used the elusive 60004 William Whitelaw on the Elizabethan with some regularity. 60004 made a couple more return runs in 1956, and one in 1958, before failing at Doncaster on it’s next and last appearance on the train. Consequently the up Elizabethan arrived at Kings Cross that day (29/8/58) behind a V2.

That's quite interesting, thanks. It was after 1958 when I saw it (for the one and only time). I'm fairly sure it ventured south very rarely, if at all in the early 1960s (apart from when I saw it). I wonder if it was the failure on the prestige "Elizabethan" that resulted in the reluctance to send it to the capital. I had quite a few gricer friends who regularly frequented Finsbury Park and Kings Cross and we were all short of it. If I had missed it, I'm sure one of them would have let me know.

 

[Taunton]

Thks for confirmation on load. Of course, a 60 mph average would have needed sustained running at c 75 mph for long distance.

[Going more OT than ever.] But it didn't, in fact.
I was going to mention The Bristolian in my original post, but decided it would be too OT. But as you've brought it up - it required sustained running at 80 - 85 mph and no more.

As I'm sure @Taunton could confirm, you can find many runs of this train where, from west of Swindon to somewhere like Old Oak Common the speed is continuously in the narrow 80-85 mph band (except, of course, for PSRs like Reading) not even touching 90 mph. I take my hat off* to those WR crews for driving so steadily and economically, keeping to time with such sustained running and avoiding the need for (expensive) bursts of higher speed.

Of course, I'm not saying they never had to go into the 90s or even to 100 mph to make up time for out-of-course delays, but it was not needed on a daily basis.

But as you say, this was a specially loaded train - 7 carriages Monday - Thursday, 8 on a Friday with a King. Very limited load - putting 10 or 11 behind a Castle and easing the schedule for the rest of the day was probably far more profitable (or less of a loss maker).

* Though it hurts. That's my one bit of praise for the GWR for 2022. No need for any more this year.

The Bristolian had been preceded over much the same route by the Cheltenham Spa Express, alias the "Cheltenham Flyer", nonstop from Swindon to Paddington in much the same manner, from the 1930s; The Bristolian was a 1950s WR innovation.

Thanks to Brunel, it's all very gently downhill, like the Upper Thames basin it follows, almost from Badminton, so the real challenge for The Bristolian was in the opposite direction with the same timing; The Cheltenham didn't do that. The latter was regarded as a GWR joke (rather like the 2.35 from Paddington to Bristol), as the initial stretch from, Cheltenham, to Gloucester, preceded reversal there, and was sometimes hauled by a tank engine running bunker-first; the Castle came on at Gloucester. Given the indirect routing from Cheltenham, whence the GWR long ran a frequent coach service to Oxford, for connections to London, which always appeared at the front of GWR and WR timetables, the company was well aware of the poor service provided there.

If you want a loss-maker on the route, look at the midday fill-in Bristol Pullman on the same route. The "Brizzy" was generally well patronised.

 

[Harvester]

When was the last 100mph recorded with BR steam on the ECML? I have a couple of logs, of specials, that may show the last achievements!

One records A4 60007 reaching 103mph down Stoke bank on 6th July 1963 on a LCGB special, and another records A3 60106 Flying Fox reaching 100mph at the same location on 2nd May 1964 with a “Gresley Society“ special.

I don’t have a log of 60009‘s run on the “Jubilee Requiem“ special (24th October 1964), but I think the ton was just missed that day. So was 60106 on 2/5/64 the last occasion?

 

[beardedbrit]

There are a couple of interesting logs in the April 1962 issue of Modern Railways, of southbound runs by the Elizabethan during the 1961 summer (the last of steam haulage). Both loads were 10 coaches (380 tons gross) and the schedule was 395 minutes.

The first was a full length log of a run behind A4 60024, were numerous checks and two dead stands were encountered on route. Speed only reached the lower eighties at a few locations, but Finsbury Park was passed two minutes early. Then no clear path into Kings Cross, resulting in a two minute late arrival for Kingfisher.

The second log (Grantham-Kings Cross) was of a run behind 60009, which passed Grantham, 10 minutes late. The crew recovered all the arrears before Kings Cross with some excellent running, including a 92mph max down Stoke bank. The speed over the forty miles from Huntingdon to Hatfield varied from the mid seventies to the mid eighties, and this was from an engine that had already covered 300 plus miles non stop.

I recall trip on the southbound Elizabethan in September 1961 - don't know the exact date but the Edinburgh Festival was in its last week so probably around Thursday 7th . A4 60022 Mallard kept good time until somewhere between Retford and Newark, where we were stopped for a good 20-25 minutes due to a buckled rail ahead, according to the guard who came through the train (it was indeed a hot day). Once we got moving again it ran like a bat out of hell, arriving at Kings Cross only five minutes late.
My one and only trip behind Mallard, but a most memorable one!

 

[Harvester]

I recall trip on the southbound Elizabethan in September 1961 - don't know the exact date but the Edinburgh Festival was in its last week so probably around Thursday 7th . A4 60022 Mallard kept good time until somewhere between Retford and Newark, where we were stopped for a good 20-25 minutes due to a buckled rail ahead, according to the guard who came through the train (it was indeed a hot day). Once we got moving again it ran like a bat out of hell, arriving at Kings Cross only five minutes late.
My one and only trip behind Mallard, but a most memorable one!

Your date is correct, Mallard was on the up Elizabethan on 7/9/61 (Source: “What’s on The Lizzie” - Aylard/Knox/Percival). Some excellent running by 60022 to make up so much time. Mallard was only selected to work the Elizabethan for the last week of the 1961 summer timetable. It had just been run-in after a General Repair (it’s last) and so was in top class condition.

 

[DerekC]

Can still remember the first time I saw Mallard. I was at Darlington station and 60022 arrived in rather grimy condition with a northbound express. Hence I assumed, as it approached, that it would be Gateshead A4, but then got a pleasant surprise when the number came into view.

My one and only close encounter with Mallard in pre-museum days was at Kings Cross. I must have been about ten and had been dragged round the London shops by my mum. Probably because I didn't moan too much that day, we went over to the main line platforms to see what was in before heading over to the suburban station to catch our N2 and quad-arts to Enfield Chase. There was 60022, all shiny green and yellow lined, hissing gently at the buffers having arrived with I don't know which service. With my mouth hanging open we went up to the cab and (joy of joys) I was invited to climb up - just for a couple of minutes. Never to be forgotten!

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Your date is correct, Mallard was on the up Elizabethan on 7/9/61 (Source: “What’s on The Lizzie” - Aylard/Knox/Percival).

This thread has brought to mind something I very much regret losing....or rather not finding! In 1960 my father kept a log of the locos he saw hauling the premier ER trains in 1960 whilst at work at different stations between Huntingdon and Biggleswade. The most complete log was for the Elizabethan, it was almost exclusively hauled by the regular A4s 60027 Merlin and 60032 Gannet with 60025 Falcon and 60029 Woodcock stepping in occasionally. (I'm sure your book will confirm this @Harvester) A4s also dominated the Talisman and The Flying Scotsman, although A3s and A1s were not uncommon.
They also had exclusive use on the '266 down' and were regular performers on the Anglo-Scottish car train...whereas they were never to be seen on the 'Yorkshire Pullman', almost entirlrly entrusted to the A1s.
When my father died, I collected all his railway books and notebooks going back to the early 1930s, although I searched high and low there was no sign at all of the logs that he kept from 1961 until the end of steam on the GN main line. He expanded his notes to include all steam hauled trains that he was able to see during working hours, during this period mostly at St. Neot's, this was of course of great interest to me as I was often somewhere nearby with one of my older brothers,by the time that I could get out on my own steam had almost disappeared. I can recall leafing through the lists and noticing the increasing use of ex-LMS locos on coal/freight/parcels trains during the last year.....but the evidence is gone!

 

[High Dyke]

It was booked for Deltic haulage, with a six hour schedule from 1962, with a Newcastle stop inserted for a crew change. IIRC this became necessary because some crews objected to travelling in the noisy Deltic cabs for six hours and above. The following summer it lost it’s Elizabethan title and just ran as relief to the Flying Scotsman.

That and the lack of a corridor connection to/from the Deltic that an A4 used. Had a discussion about that a couple of days ago.