Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[Goldfish62]

Looking at the big picture, and asking the question from a different perspective: Why might ASLEF be uncooperative in negotiations about anything during a period of major industrial relations unrest?

ASLEF are not in dispute with SWR. They have a multi-year deal.

 

[Bald Rick]

ASLEF are not in dispute with SWR. They have a multi-year deal.

Big Picture….

 

[Big Jumby 74]

.

 

[Goldfish62]

Big Picture….

So what you're essentially saying is that everything on the railways, even for those companies where there's not a dispute grinds to a halt in the current circumstances.

In which case I won't expect to see any training taking place or new stock introduced anywhere on the network for the forseeable future.

 

[lammergeier]

So what you're essentially saying is that everything on the railways, even for those companies where there's not a dispute grinds to a halt in the current circumstances.

In which case I won't expect to see any training taking place or new stock introduced anywhere on the network for the forseeable future.

The suggestion is complete nonsense. "Big picture..." is basically tittle-tattle. ASLEF and management working together at many companies to facilitate training, often in extremely difficult circumstances due to the refusal of DfT to authorise RDW deals.

 

[Goldfish62]

The suggestion is complete nonsense. "Big picture..." is basically tittle-tattle. ASLEF and management working together at many companies to facilitate training, often in extremely difficult circumstances due to the refusal of DfT to authorise RDW deals.

That's exactly what I thought.

 

[Bald Rick]

The suggestion is complete nonsense. "Big picture..." is basically tittle-tattle. ASLEF and management working together at many companies to facilitate training, often in extremely difficult circumstances due to the refusal of DfT to authorise RDW deals.

But in many places, not!

 

[Invincible]

042 at Waterloo platform 16 with Reading on trains display.

 

[TEW]

ASLEF are not in dispute with SWR. They have a multi-year deal.

Not in dispute yet, but I think it's fair to say the relationship between ASLEF and SWR is not good at the moment.

 

[Invincible]

042 at Waterloo platform 16 with Reading on trains display.

When I was later at Waterloo 701 042 was on the platform but out of service on the display
Wonder if it could have been the test 5Q46 which had run to Reading and back?

Realtime Trains | 5Q46 1047 London Waterloo to Reading | 13/10/2022

Real-time train running information for 5Q46 1047 departure from London Waterloo to Reading on 13/10/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

It's automatic braking and door opening. It was supposedly one of the reasons for rolling out the 701 fleet in the first place (over more 707s) as the argument from its proponents was that dwell times could be reduced and more trains run during the peak hours.

But now that proposed timetable has been scrapped and will probably not see the light of day again, so with it goes the argument for any need for ABDO.

When I used to travel via Vauxhall or Clapham Junction peaktime there were 455 trains on the main up and down stopping lines every 3 or 4 minutes, sometime took a while to load or unload, if one train was late then several others would be affected as the timing was tight, if dwell times could be reduced then the risk of delays to other trains might also be reduced?

 

[Bald Rick]

When I used to travel via Vauxhall or Clapham Junction peaktime there were 455 trains on the main up and down stopping lines every 3 or 4 minutes, sometime took a while to load or unload, if one train was late then several others would be affected as the timing was tight, if dwell times could be reduced then the risk of delays to other trains might also be reduced?

Exactly. And just imagine how much more dwell time / delay could be saved if the guard didn’t have to open and close the doors!

 

[Invincible]

Exactly. And just imagine how much more dwell time / delay could be saved if the guard didn’t have to open and close the doors!

I can see the advantage of doors opening, but for busy stations like Vauxhall and Clapham junction if the doors shut too early might have safety issues. Think there was a comment further back saying staff wanted better detection devices on doors?

 

[Elorith]

When I used to travel via Vauxhall or Clapham Junction peaktime there were 455 trains on the main up and down stopping lines every 3 or 4 minutes, sometime took a while to load or unload, if one train was late then several others would be affected as the timing was tight, if dwell times could be reduced then the risk of delays to other trains might also be reduced

I'm sure this has been discussed to death here and in other places so just going to leave my own experience just this once and not get into it further. But in the morning and evening peak, almost all that dwell time (easily 80 to 90%) is caused by passengers getting on and off trains, not the time between stopping and doors being released and door interlock being achieved and driver taking power. If we do see 701s enter service, I have no doubt dwell times would go down slightly due to the speed at which the doors and open and shut. But would ABDO or DCO make a difference? Probably not in my view.

Exactly. And just imagine how much more dwell time / delay could be saved if the guard didn’t have to open and close the doors!

If you have a good driver and good guard, I'm confident you could quite easily get out faster at busy times than you could with DCO on many stock across the metro area (455s and 458s in particular). Especially so at platforms which are straight and only require a quick visual check versus staring at a sequence of tiny monitors one after the other. Even considering the time it takes to shut a local door and give RTS. The new Thameslink timetable failed in part because dwell times failed to live up to the expectations of DOO proponents.

 

[Bald Rick]

If you have a good driver and good guard, I'm confident you could quite easily get out faster at busy times than you could with DCO on many stock across the metro area (455s and 458s in particular). Especially so at platforms which are straight and only require a quick visual check versus staring at a sequence of tiny monitors one after the other. Even considering the time it takes to shut a local door and give RTS.

That’s not what every study on the subject shows, but let’s leave that debate for another time.

 

[Elorith]

That’s not what every study on the subject shows, but let’s leave that debate for another time.

It isn't, but I agree it's best we don't waste time here if we're at cross purposes.

 

[ped316]

Does anyone know what the 4 units at Feltham at 10am this morning were? Thanks

 

[Invincible]

From realtime trains on Thursday 701 042 after the Reading Waterloo return run, went to Eastleigh, was pathed back to Staines (Feltham depot?) but never made it, so must be still at Eastleigh?(haven't done trainspotting for several years)
So thats 4 701s at Feltham, 3 at Clapham Junction (as below?), some at West Wimbledon (5?) and Eastleigh and a large number at Widnes?

701 037 nearest to the up main, then 701 047 and long term resident 701 025 in the usual place.

There's also at least five of the six roads in West Wimbledon shed ( the one nearest the line ) occupied by 701s, but I'm not sure which units they are.

 

[davews]

If you look further in RTT 047 started off from Eastleigh early morning and was eventually scheduled to arrive back there late evening. As you say it was caped at Eastleigh mid afternoon so is probably back in the depot. The similar run on Friday is shown as cancelled. Maybe evidence of a new fault tying in with the rumours.

Waterloo grand tour eventually back to Staines Up Loop, cancelled at Eastleigh after running late

Realtime Trains | 5Q48 1417 London Waterloo to Eastleigh | 13/10/2022

Real-time train running information for 5Q48 1417 departure from London Waterloo to Eastleigh on 13/10/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Reverse at Staines, long tour right out to Bournemouth to return to Eastleigh yard at 2343 - all cancelled

Realtime Trains | 5Q52 1724 Staines Up Loop to Eastleigh Trsmd | 13/10/2022

Real-time train running information for 5Q52 1724 departure from Staines Up Loop to Eastleigh Trsmd on 13/10/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[EdChap]

If you look further in RTT 047 started off from Eastleigh early morning and was eventually scheduled to arrive back there late evening. As you say it was caped at Eastleigh mid afternoon so is probably back in the depot. The similar run on Friday is shown as cancelled. Maybe evidence of a new fault tying in with the rumours.

Waterloo grand tour eventually back to Staines Up Loop, cancelled at Eastleigh after running late

Realtime Trains | 5Q48 1417 London Waterloo to Eastleigh | 13/10/2022

Real-time train running information for 5Q48 1417 departure from London Waterloo to Eastleigh on 13/10/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Reverse at Staines, long tour right out to Bournemouth to return to Eastleigh yard at 2343 - all cancelled

Realtime Trains | 5Q52 1724 Staines Up Loop to Eastleigh Trsmd | 13/10/2022

Real-time train running information for 5Q52 1724 departure from Staines Up Loop to Eastleigh Trsmd on 13/10/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

You say "Maybe evidence of a new fault tying in with the rumours."

Please could you expand further and tell us about these new rumours and the new fault(s).

Thanks.

 

[davews]

Posted over on WNXX yesterday:
Seems 701 introduction has slipped further
Nothing official, rumours of ASLEF issues but how true they are?

Such comments of course just lead to speculation, not being in the industry I know nothing, rumour or otherwise....

 

[TEW]

From realtime trains on Thursday 701 042 after the Reading Waterloo return run, went to Eastleigh, was pathed back to Staines (Feltham depot?) but never made it, so must be still at Eastleigh?(haven't done trainspotting for several years)
So thats 4 701s at Feltham, 3 at Clapham Junction (as below?), some at West Wimbledon (5?) and Eastleigh and a large number at Widnes?

There's also 4 or 5 at Farnham Depot. Not sure if any are at Bournemouth at the moment?

 

[AlexNL]

Posted over on WNXX yesterday:
Seems 701 introduction has slipped further
Nothing official, rumours of ASLEF issues but how true they are?

Such comments of course just lead to speculation, not being in the industry I know nothing, rumour or otherwise....

Makes me wonder whether the 701s will even be in passenger service by the time SWRs contract ends (28 May 2023).

 

[73128]

A comment during discussions at SWR MTM this week suggested early next year although that seems very optimistic. Waterloo to Windsor first with dedicated diagrams and crews: Reading line itself not far behind.

 

[DennisM]

ASLEF are not in dispute with SWR. They have a multi-year deal.

Its the last 6 months of that deal, so a new one will need to be agreed toward the start of 2023.

 

[Goldfish62]

A comment during discussions at SWR MTM this week suggested early next year although that seems very optimistic. Waterloo to Windsor first with dedicated diagrams and crews: Reading line itself not far behind.

So it's been tweaked from the original proposal of Reading first. Makes sense I suppose. Windsor needs five units, Reading seven.

Its the last 6 months of that deal, so a new one will need to be agreed toward the start of 2023.

My point still stands. The 196s have just been introduced into service by WMT despite ASLEF being in dispute over pay.

 

[TEW]

There is definitely friction between ASLEF and SWR at the moment unrelated to pay and I would not be at all surprised if that is causing there to be little 701 progress at present. I believe that ASLEF are close to being in dispute, although there may have been progress more recently.

 

[alf]

There is definitely friction between ASLEF and SWR at the moment unrelated to pay and I would not be at all surprised if that is causing there to be little 701 progress at present. I believe that ASLEF are close to being in dispute, although there may have been progress more recently.

Is the issue to do with the 701 class?
If so do you know what the problem is?

 

[fgwrich]

There is definitely friction between ASLEF and SWR at the moment unrelated to pay and I would not be at all surprised if that is causing there to be little 701 progress at present. I believe that ASLEF are close to being in dispute, although there may have been progress more recently.

From technical and build faults to constant clashes with the unions. These really are becoming the cursed child of the SWR fleet - and possibly the most protracted fleet introduction for many many years.

I know the reasons behind it (thanks DfT), but I do wish we could have just had a follow on build of 707s.

 

[Mordac]

Is the issue to do with the 701 class?
If so do you know what the problem is?

ASLEF don't want to do the doors, despite having signed a deal to do so in exchange for increased pay.

 

[pompeyfan]

ASLEF don't want to do the doors, despite having signed a deal to do so in exchange for increased pay.

Do you have proof of this accusation?