SWR Class 458 to be retained

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder this thread is for updates only.

Any posts of a speculative nature are very welcome in the following thread:

SWR Class 458 speculation

Honestly i really would not be surprised if the entire 458 project is cancelled and the whole lot of them are sent to the scrapyard just like what happened to the 442 trains a few years ago. Services on SWR have been massively reduced compared to before the Corona Virus so once all of the 701s...

www.railforums.co.uk

Many thanks

 

[Versa274]

So presumably the 2 458s, (after the 422 problems), have been already checked for any corrosion, loose cab doors, or any other problem, that might affect going back in service on the London - Bournemouth line in 2023 to start releasing 444 and 450s, assuming the 701s will also enter service (to release 455s, 707s and non refurbished 458s)?.

Releasing 444/450 for what exactly?

 

[Invincible]

Refurbishment for SWR's Class 458 trains thanks to new contract between Porterbrook and Alstom

Porterbrook has announced that South Western Railway's (SWR) fleet of Modern Railway’s ‘Golden Spanner awards’ winning Class 458 will undergo major improvements following a new deal with Alstom.

www.railadvent.co.uk

ref the 458s SWR says

Class 458

The Class 458/4 and Class458/5 Coradia Juniper trains are four and five-carriage trains developed from our previous four-carriage Class 458 trains

www.southwesternrailway.com

"They'll be replaced on Windsor side routes in 2022 by our new Class 701 Aventra trains, and will be refurbished before returning to service on our Portsmouth Direct route between Portsmouth Harbour and London Waterloo via Guildford."

OK meant 458s used on the London and Portsmouth line, but serviced at Bournemouth.

For a short while some refurbished 422s were used on the London and Portsmouth line, but when the 422s were withdrawn and scrapped, 444 and 450s were used, but SWR has not confirmed what the plan is where the current 444 and 450s released by the refurbished 458s will be used?

I see in the SWR Class 458 speculation thread someone has suggested some 450s may go out of lease if the 458s are cheaper?

 

[Doomotron]

I see in the SWR Class 458 speculation thread someone has suggested some 450s may go out of lease if the 458s are cheaper?

Not going to happen.

 

[fgwrich]

Not going to happen.

Indeed, the 458s might be cheap, but there’s no chance in hell they’ll be sending the 450s off lease in their place - why would anyone want to reduce a standardised fleet with something a lot less reliable and non standard?

 

[DelW]

For a short while some refurbished 422s were used on the London and Portsmouth line, but when the 422s were withdrawn and scrapped, 444 and 450s were used, but SWR has not confirmed what the plan is where the current 444 and 450s released by the refurbished 458s will be used?

Just to avoid possible confusion, I think you're referring to class 442 being refurbished then withdrawn and scrapped.

Class 422 would have been between the 4-CIGs (class 421) and the 4-VEPs (class 423), but I'm not aware of the number being used when those were extant. (Some web sources assign cl 422 to 4-BIGs, but my old fleet lists show those as cl 420).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Just to avoid possible confusion, I think you're referring to class 442 being refurbished then withdrawn and scrapped.

Class 422 would have been between the 4-CIGs (class 421) and the 4-VEPs (class 423), but I'm not aware of the number being used when those were extant. (Some web sources assign cl 422 to 4-BIGs, but my old fleet lists show those as cl 420).

I always had 4-BIGs as class 422 (as did the ABC books). Same Southern Region convention as the CEP/BEP units: xx1= low density 4-car units, xx2= low density 4-car units with buffet.

 

[DelW]

I always had 4-BIGs as class 422 (as did the ABC books). Same Southern Region convention as the CEP/BEP units: xx1= low density 4-car units, xx2= low density 4-car units with buffet.

That's curious. I referred back to a 1983 Ian Allan ABC, which doesn't list a class 422, but shows class 420/1 and 420/2 as 4-BIG (unit numbers 7031 - 7058 inc).

My next one chronologically is a 2000 Platform 5 book, which doesn't list anything as either class 422 or 4-BIG. I think by then they'd been withdrawn and replaced by refurbished 4-BEPs from the Kent Coast.

So presumably either the class number changed, or the 1983 ABC is erroneous (which is quite possible of course).

 

[43096]

That's curious. I referred back to a 1983 Ian Allan ABC, which doesn't list a class 422, but shows class 420/1 and 420/2 as 4-BIG (unit numbers 7031 - 7058 inc).

My next one chronologically is a 2000 Platform 5 book, which doesn't list anything as either class 422 or 4-BIG. I think by then they'd been withdrawn and replaced by refurbished 4-BEPs from the Kent Coast.

So presumably either the class number changed, or the 1983 ABC is erroneous (which is quite possible of course).

The class number for the BIGs was changed in 1983 from 420 to 422. This was so they fitted in with the Southern scheme where the last digit of the class number was used to differentiate the type of work the stock was designed for:
xx1 Mainline units: 411 (CEP), 421 (CIG) etc
xx2 Buffet units: 412 (BEP), 422 (BIG), 432 (REP), 442
xx3 Outer-suburban 4-car: 413 (CAP), 423 (VEP)
xx4 Outer-suburban 2-car: 414 (HAP)
xx5 Inner-suburban 4-car: 405 (SUB), 415 (EPB), 455, 465
xx6 Inner-suburban 2-car: 416 (EPB), 456, 466
xx8 Trailer sets: 438 (TC), 488
xx9 Motored vans: 419 (MLV), 489

 

[Invincible]

Just to avoid possible confusion, I think you're referring to class 442 being refurbished then withdrawn and scrapped.

Class 422 would have been between the 4-CIGs (class 421) and the 4-VEPs (class 423), but I'm not aware of the number being used when those were extant. (Some web sources assign cl 422 to 4-BIGs, but my old fleet lists show those as cl 420).

Sorry did mean 442. But did (before the lockdown) take a 4TC seaside special railtour which was good. The Swanage Railway are making good, but slow progress, restoring a blue/grey slam door 4TC with a 4-BIG buffet.

There were lots of complaints from commuters in Hampshire and Dorset when the 442s and 444s were introduced saying they were not as good as the previous slam door stock, but the 442 and 444s had 2+2 seating. Also now that 450s with 3+2 seating are working some routes, they have complaints, which the refurbished 458s as express trains with comfortable 2+2 seating should solve.
But will the 2 units currently being converted appear in 2023?, maybe without restoring the longer streaming noses some had when used as the Gatwick Express (class 460)?.


Was in a conversation about commuting peak times from Surrey and that 450s with 3+2 seating are still preferred as there is a better chance of getting a seat rather than standing.
Assuming commuting levels pre lockdown will return there may be a case if/when the 701s are introduced, for keeping all 450s, 444s and also refurbishing some of the 458s as express trains (which will still have at least 10 years more life). But peak time commuting has not yet reached pre lockdown levels yet?.

 

[DelW]

The class number for the BIGs was changed in 1983 from 420 to 422. This was so they fitted in with the Southern scheme where the last digit of the class number was used to differentiate the type of work the stock was designed for ....

Thanks for the detailed explanation, and apologies for inadvertently taking the thread off-topic for a while.

There were lots of complaints from commuters in Hampshire and Dorset when the 442s and 444s were introduced saying they were not as good as the previous slam door stock, but the 442 and 444s had 2+2 seating. Also now that 450s with 3+2 seating are working some routes, they have complaints, which the refurbished 458s as express trains with comfortable 2+2 seating should solve.

Was in a conversation about commuting peak times from Surrey and that 450s with 3+2 seating are still preferred as there is a better chance of getting a seat rather than standing.

AFAIR when the 444s were introduced on the Direct, they were generally quite popular, the only criticism being that the seat cushions were thinner and harder than the deep upholstery of the slammers. It was when many of the 444s were transferred away to the main line routes, and 450s appeared on Portsmouth via the Direct, that complaints escalated. Quite a few passengers are reluctant to squeeze into the middle seat of three, and it makes all the seats very narrow.

The introduction (if it happens) of the converted 458s should enable removal of 3+2 stock from Portsmouth services. Judging by the relative quietness of station car parks in my area, commuting numbers are still well down, so peak capacity probably isn't a concern yet. Of course that may change, but who knows how much and when?

 

[Phil R]

Thanks for the detailed explanation, and apologies for inadvertently taking the thread off-topic for a while.

AFAIR when the 444s were introduced on the Direct, they were generally quite popular, the only criticism being that the seat cushions were thinner and harder than the deep upholstery of the slammers. It was when many of the 444s were transferred away to the main line routes, and 450s appeared on Portsmouth via the Direct, that complaints escalated. Quite a few passengers are reluctant to squeeze into the middle seat of three, and it makes all the seats very narrow.

The introduction (if it happens) of the converted 458s should enable removal of 3+2 stock from Portsmouth services. Judging by the relative quietness of station car parks in my area, commuting numbers are still well down, so peak capacity probably isn't a concern yet. Of course that may change, but who knows how much and when?

Yes, we missed our 444s. Some aren't bothered about the 450s and will sit / stand anywhere but plenty object. Trains busy on Tue/Wed/Thu days. Personally I tend to avoid the 450 booked trains on my daily commute, I like a wider seat demarked by an armrest, and I notice other regulars presumably doing the same.

 

[Invincible]

Yes, we missed our 444s. Some aren't bothered about the 450s and will sit / stand anywhere but plenty object. Trains busy on Tue/Wed/Thu days. Personally I tend to avoid the 450 booked trains on my daily commute, I like a wider seat demarked by an armrest, and I notice other regulars presumably doing the same.

If the current 458 2x2 seats are just reupholstered they may not get armrests, (except in First class which might need to be reinstated), but they will be wider seats than the 450s.
see interior photo at

Class 458

The Class 458/4 and Class458/5 Coradia Juniper trains are four and five-carriage trains developed from our previous four-carriage Class 458 trains

www.southwesternrailway.com

When the 458s currently arrive in Staines (and other stations) from Reading peak time all seats are taken, so some prefer the 450s with 3x2 seating as more chance of getting seats (even if narrower).

 

[Western Sunset]

The class number for the BIGs was changed in 1983 from 420 to 422. This was so they fitted in with the Southern scheme where the last digit of the class number was used to differentiate the type of work the stock was designed for:
xx1 Mainline units: 411 (CEP), 421 (CIG) etc
xx2 Buffet units: 412 (BEP), 422 (BIG), 432 (REP), 442
xx3 Outer-suburban 4-car: 413 (CAP), 423 (VEP)
xx4 Outer-suburban 2-car: 414 (HAP)
xx5 Inner-suburban 4-car: 405 (SUB), 415 (EPB), 455, 465
xx6 Inner-suburban 2-car: 416 (EPB), 456, 466
xx8 Trailer sets: 438 (TC), 488
xx9 Motored vans: 419 (MLV), 489

Thank you for such a clear exposition as to the relevance of the final digit in the class nomenclature. Was there any xx7s?

 

[JonathanH]

Was there any xx7s?

Only the experimental class 457 Networker test unit, converted from class 210 carriages, and the class 487 Waterloo & City underground stock.

 

[superalbs]

Fisa are involved with the Class 458 refurbishment, as they seem to be providing the tables. Perhaps they will supply the seats too.

Bay Tables by IMET

by IMET

www.fisaitaly.com

The caption for this image of a SWR table on their website is 'Class 458'.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Fisa are involved with the Class 458 refurbishment, as they seem to be providing the tables. Perhaps they will supply the seats too.

Bay Tables by IMET

by IMET

www.fisaitaly.com

The caption for this image of a SWR table on their website is 'Class 458'.

Well, they provided the 444 and 442 first class seats, so it would make sense.

 

[jackot]

Fisa are involved with the Class 458 refurbishment, as they seem to be providing the tables. Perhaps they will supply the seats too.

Bay Tables by IMET

by IMET

www.fisaitaly.com

The caption for this image of a SWR table on their website is 'Class 458'.

Would not Suprise me, as AFAIK they also provided the seats for the Class 444 and 442 first class and the tables for them + 450s.
Edit: Sorry, just realised I was beaten to it!

 

[WarrenTManager]

Would not Suprise me, as AFAIK they also provided the seats for the Class 444 and 442 first class and the tables for them + 450s.
Edit: Sorry, just realised I was beaten to it!

Tables fitted at 442/444/450 refurb were/are Baker Bellfield.

 

[jackot]

Tables fitted at 442/444/450 refurb were/are Baker Bellfield.

Ahh yes, sorry about that.

 

[Jonny]

Just to clarify, are the tables (at least in standard) new additions?

 

[Invincible]

Think some tables were removed when the 458s became suburban trains, so looks like the refurb as an express train will put new tables in, the 2X2 seats may stay but with new upholstery?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Think some tables were removed when the 458s became suburban trains, so looks like the refurb as an express train will put them back, the seats may stay but with new upholstery?

There were never full tables in standard class on any configuration of 458.

 

[Invincible]

There were never full tables in standard class on any configuration of 458.

Thanks, so no tables as Gatwick express when as 460?

 

[busestrains]

Thanks, so no tables as Gatwick express

The class 460 trains did have tables all throughout the train in every coach and in both standard class and first class. So they did have tables when they were the class 460 trains.

The two class 458 units that were with Gatwick Express for a short period in the mid 2000s (458 001 and 458 002) did not have tables. They just had all the seating converted to 2+2 and lots of luggage racks added.

 

[D7666]

Only the experimental class 457 Networker test unit, converted from class 210 carriages, and the class 487 Waterloo & City underground stock.

Just as a pedantic point, not linked with the 458 subject but keeping to BR SR class numbers, the word 'the' there is a little ambiguous; yes there was only one 457, but there were two experimental Networker test units, the other was 455920. Nor was 457001 all from 210 cars - the gen on wikipedia etc and oft quoted is wrong. There were 4 cars from 210s used as Networker traction development units - but they were not in the same unit.

457001 = 67300 + 67400 + 71733 + 67301 as formed for testing

455920 = 77851 + 62845 + 67401 + 77852 reformed for testing

Both 71733 and 67400/01 in test form were motor coaches converted from trailers; 62845 was already a motor coach; all had AC motors. 457001 was Brush kit; 455920 GEC kit. They both worked in passenger traffic often (always?) together - which they were the day I had them on Kingston loops 05/01/89.

There was an argument at the time whether 455920 should also have been coded 457 - the answer no was supported with 457001 was MTTM and 455920 TMMT. It was deduced then xx7 was possibly reserved *at that time* (which was before 465/466 were known by class number) for possible future unit new types with some sort of alternative motor|trailer configurations.

 

[gmaguire]

457001 = 67300 + 67400 + 71733 + 67301 as formed for testing

455920 = 77851 + 62845 + 67401 + 77852 reformed for testing

How did 67401 end up in 455920 and 71733 in 457001?

 

[D7666]

How did 67401 end up in 455920 and 71733 in 457001?

No idea.

But that is what it was; 457001 being entirely composed of 210 cars is incorrect, despite that being written in many places. wikipedia is almost certainly wrong because whoever edited that copied wrong gen from /somewhere/; then many others refer to wikipedia.

There is never any possibility to rationalise decisions as to why vehicle 12345 was used and not 23456 to fit neat "trainspotter" type compartments. Industry just does not work like that. More often than not, the vehicle most easily accessible on the end of the line at the time has more to do with it than anything else.

Somewhere I have got the full reform history of those two units; there were three different sites inolved with the reforms - Selhurst, Derby and Strawberry Hill.

They were certainly formed as I wrote when I travelled on 455920+457001 : I don't do this for the general run of units but that one I did check at the time to be sure, to be sure.

 

[pompeyfan]

I’ve just seen reports that the first two 458s will be ready Q1 of 2023, and will then be bedded in with the whole program still expected to proceed and be in traffic within 1 year, this was on an all staff video bulletin.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’ve just seen reports that the first two 458s will be ready Q1 of 2023, and will then be bedded in with the whole program still expected to proceed and be in traffic within 1 year, this was on an all staff video bulletin.

Thanks so much for this update @pompeyfan, I've been very keen to hear about the progress of these. When you say bedded in, how do you mean? Will they return to Reading services with the rest of the fleet and then join Portsmouth within one year, is that what you're saying?