Class 376 refurbishment in 2023 - no air con or toilets to be added

[ScotGG]

These are now nearing 20 years at Southeastern and are the only type of Electrostars built over about 18 years without air conditioning.

I've just read this and it appears that will remain with the upcoming refurbishment. I suppose it was always a stretch to hope for it, though warm temps now seem to stretch to up to eight months a year. This week will see 21c for example.

Southeastern Class 376 train refurbishment will not see air con or toilets added - Murky Depths

Plans to refurb Class 376s trains on Southeastern will see minimal changes with only seat covers and flooring the extent of it.

www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk

Southeastern’s Class 376 trains were the very last in the UK to be ordered without air con by Connex South Eastern in the 2000s – despite being based on the Electrostar platform which includes air con on all other electric models.

Older models such as the now 22 year old Electrostar Class 357 that operates commuter services on c2c include air conditioning....

No toilets either are to be installed. I suppose no pressing need even though it would increase fleet flexibility to run routes to, say, Tunbridge Wells over the life of the fleet? And maybe a bit disappointing given new SWR high density stock will have toilets.

Overall it appears to be a basic upgrade which isn't the worst thing I suppose as I quite like them as they move a lot of people with large vestibules. Most don't seem to though.

 

[43066]

These are now nearing 20 years at Southeastern and are the only type of Electrostars built over about 18 years without air conditioning.

I've just read this and it appears that will remain with the upcoming refurbishment. I suppose it was always a stretch to hope for it, though warm temps now seem to stretch to up to eight months a year. This week will see 21c for example.

Southeastern Class 376 train refurbishment will not see air con or toilets added - Murky Depths

Plans to refurb Class 376s trains on Southeastern will see minimal changes with only seat covers and flooring the extent of it.

www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk

No toilets either are to be installed. I suppose no pressing need even though it would increase fleet flexibility to run routes to, say, Tunbridge Wells over the life of the fleet? And maybe a bit disappointing given new SWR high density stock will have toilets.

Overall it appears to be a basic upgrade which isn't the worst thing I suppose as I quite like them as they move a lot of people with large vestibules. Most don't seem to though.

Certainly high time they were overhauled!

I’m less bothered about toilets, but certainly agree it’s disappointing there can’t be air conditioning fitted, especially as it could presumably be done fairly easily and cheaply on a modular basis. They are absolutely appalling in high temperatures because of course the body shell is designed for aircon, and the windows are far smaller than the equivalent in networkers, with the latter being far more bearable in the heat, with a decent breeze through the coaches (at least once they’re on the move).

EDIT: also disappointing that the article wrongly refers to 165s - 365s I could just about have understood. Geeky detail for most people no doubt, but FTMD usually get this kind of thing right.

 

[ScotGG]

I did wonder if its because of drawing too much power from third rail but its probably just not wanting to spend much. I expect the exterior will go dark blue too?

I think the 165 reference may refer to the total number of Networker units still running with Southeastern rather than the Class 165. With recent withdrawals its between 160-170 I believe though some come and go.

 

[43066]

I did wonder if its because of drawing too much power from third rail but its probably just not wanting to spend much.

Power supply constraint was definitely a consideration when the 375s were introduced, and even up until relatively recently (eg 319s were limited to notch 2 when leaving BFR up until the TL rebuild).

However various upgrades have taken place to the point where 700s can run on many parts of the SE network, and of course the new 707 fleet has a/c, so it’s hard to imagine that the 376s being retrofitted would tip the network over the edge.

I suspect the second reason .

I think the 165 reference may refer to the total number of Networker units still running with Southeastern rather than the Class 165. With recent withdrawals its between 160-170 I believe though some come and go.

Reading back, I think you’re quite right! I take my previous comment back.

 

[jackot]

I’m less bothered about toilets, but certainly agree it’s disappointing there can’t be air conditioning fitted, especially as it could presumably be done fairly easily and cheaply on a modular basis.

It wouldn't be that much of a challenge to install at all I don't think, seeing as all the other Electrostars were built with it. Looking at this photo, it seems the 376s already have spaces to fit aircon. Even if they cheaped out and chose 165 style air cooling, it would still be very appreciated.

 

[43066]

it seems the 376s already have spaces to fit aircon

Indeed - which stands to reason given their Electrostar body shell. I’m sure I read (on here?) that it would be in principle quite straightforward to simply swap out their current forced air ventilation modules for standard Electrostar a/c modules.

Of course none of this would be allowed unless the DfT agreed to foot the no doubt “generous” bill the relevant ROSCO presented, so I think we can take a safe guess at the chances of it happening.

 

[lumitumey12345]

No exterior refurb?

 

[Mikey C]

As ever with Southeastern, the long term future of all the Metro stock is probably affecting how much is spent on the existing trains. When in say 5 to 10 years time the Networkers are replaced, then will the 376s also be replaced, indeed the 707s also to give a common set of trains?

 

[JonathanH]

As ever with Southeastern, the long term future of all the Metro stock is probably affecting how much is spent on the existing trains. When in say 5 to 10 years time the Networkers are replaced, then will the 376s also be replaced, indeed the 707s also to give a common set of trains?

It isn't impossible that by then the 376s might be useful with Southern on some of the inner area workings.

 

[Mikey C]

It isn't impossible that by then the 376s might be useful with Southern on some of the inner area workings.

Or the 707s, or indeed any spare 701s?

I still find it odd that SWR and SE will have large fleets of high density trains, whereas Southern now have none on their south London routes.

 

[JonathanH]

Or the 707s, or indeed any spare 701s?

From Southern's point of view the 376s have the advantage of being Electrostars though.

There was, of course, at one point the rumoured plan for the 376s to be upgraded for the Uckfield line, which never happened.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It isn't impossible that by then the 376s might be useful with Southern on some of the inner area workings.

Can't couple with 377s except for in emergencies or out of use though so reduces fleet flexibility.

 

[MCR247]

Can't couple with 377s except for in emergencies or out of use though so reduces fleet flexibility.

If the fleet was being transferred to Southern I’m sure that could be changed

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

I hate air-conditioning.

Perhaps some sort of opening windows could be devised to use natural ventilation while the train is moving.

 

[AM9]

Installing a/c on trains that have been running for almost 20 years might not be as simple as fitting from new, even if other members of the family of trains (Electrostar) have been supplied with it from new. It would probably involve wholesale replacement of seals and changes to the wiring - in some cases stripping back to bare body shells. Given the heavy use of the stock, there is probably a maximum of 10- 15 years service life left in them so insisting on what could be a potentially complicated refit might delay or even remove the prospects for a refurbishment.

 

[Mikey C]

From Southern's point of view the 376s have the advantage of being Electrostars though.

There was, of course, at one point the rumoured plan for the 376s to be upgraded for the Uckfield line, which never happened.

Seeing that Southern and TL are basically the same company, the 707s have a lot in common with the TL 700s, so that would work also.

 

[JonathanH]

Seeing that Southern and TL are basically the same company, the 707s have a lot in common with the TL 700s, so that would work also.

Yes, prior to March 2020, I always liked the idea that the 707s could be upgraded to 5-car 700s to work the Thameslink route in 10 car formations but I think that is getting a bit too speculative.

 

[physics34]

As OP says, a more generous interior refurb could see there be more flexible on longer distance routes. Oh well, another opportunity missed.

 

[AM9]

Yes, prior to March 2020, I always liked the idea that the 707s could be upgraded to 5-car 700s to work the Thameslink route in 10 car formations but I think that is getting a bit too speculative.

The Thameslink core is set up for 12/8-car trains only so no chance of 707s running services through there.

 

[Milo T.K]

I hate air-conditioning.

Perhaps some sort of opening windows could be devised to use natural ventilation while the train is moving.

Just out of interest how comes you dislike Air conditioning? To be honest tho ac is better than hopper windows.

Thought it would have been 377s?

There was, of course, at one point the rumoured plan for the 376s to be upgraded for the Uckfield line, which never happened.

 

[321over360]

The 376s really need toilets fitting to them, would alleviate the late night urination that happens in them due to there being no toilet. Air con will likely be costly given the age of the trains and with most units usually in service with only a couple on spare, can SE take a train away for major works to be done to them, definitely need a new paintwork given they still bare the old connex SE livery

 

[Milo T.K]

Iirc paint jobs are part of essential maintenance after a certain amount of time so will be done in (most likely) SE blue

definitely need a new paintwork given they still bare the old connex SE livery

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Just out of interest how comes you dislike Air conditioning? To be honest tho ac is better than hopper windows.

Thought it would have been 377s?

I got on a train today (not a 377/378) after waiting outside in very agreeable weather. The air in the train was much too warm, stuffy, felt very unpleasant compared with the air outside. I wished I could have opened the windows.

 

[jackot]

I got on a train today (not a 377/378) after waiting outside in very agreeable weather. The air in the train was much too warm, stuffy, felt very unpleasant compared with the air outside. I wished I could have opened the windows.

I'd argue that not all trains with aircon are like that though, it all depends on how much air is being recirculated and how much air is actually fresh; some units get the mix better than others. Although I will agree it can be nice having the option for windows for a bit of fresh air - it is often counterproductive with aircon or heating on in the summer/winter.

I hate air-conditioning.

I doubt you would be saying that in a 35 degree plus heatwave on a crammed 376, and that scenario is only going to get more common in the future.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I hate air-conditioning.

I dare you to travel on a 455 if we have another heatwave like in last summer and tell me that

Edit: Sorry I’m not sure why the text size has gone large

 

[Recessio]

Not fitting air conditioning is absolutely taking the p*ss... Though actually if they aren't fitting toilets then they can't even take that either!

 

[321over360]

Problem with air con trains is when the Aircon fails, it can be unbearable on the carriage. Also on some tocs they switch the heating on too early esp tfl so the trains do become stuffy which can be compensated by an opening window to get some fresh air into the train as in the UK we have an obsession with heating trains even when the temperature isn't that cold, as if its winter you are going to be wearing layers on a cold day, having an overheated train is just a way of spreading germs due to passengers going out onto cold platforms from a warm train and vice versa which is why colds spread in winter due to overheated trains, shops and offices, ok I know this is going a little off topic but it is relevant to the 376s as they were never as hot as the air con fitted 375s in mild weather

Not fitting air conditioning is absolutely taking the p*ss... Though actually if they aren't fitting toilets then they can't even take that either!

Toilets would be more of a pressing thing to be fitted to the 376s over aircon as they do suffer from Thursday/Friday night urination in the coaches as a result of no toilet being on them, personally no NR train should be built without toilets and this includes the class 345, 710, 378s which should all be retrofitted, and have it legislated for all trains, regardless of the route to have toilets onboard

 

[jackot]

having an overheated train is just a way of spreading germs due to passengers going out onto cold platforms from a warm train and vice versa which is why colds spread in winter due to overheated trains, shops and offices, ok I know this is going a little off topic but it is relevant to the 376s as they were never as hot as the air con fitted 375s in mild weather

Not quite sure what you mean there; the common cold isn't caught by going between a hot or a cold place. I can't imagine the temperature of the train would have a huge impact on this either, but rather the rate at which air is being replaced/filtered.

 

[Doomotron]

Can't couple with 377s except for in emergencies or out of use though so reduces fleet flexibility.

While they are partially compatible anyway, there is absolutely no need for them to couple in service since they'd logically replace the 10-coach /3 + /3 + /x formations used in London. However, we are going into speculation now and I don't like having my posts deleted for being off-topic.

 

[Mikey C]

Toilets would be more of a pressing thing to be fitted to the 376s over aircon as they do suffer from Thursday/Friday night urination in the coaches as a result of no toilet being on them, personally no NR train should be built without toilets and this includes the class 345, 710, 378s which should all be retrofitted, and have it legislated for all trains, regardless of the route to have toilets onboard

But then if the 376s are only operated on short distance routes, what makes them different from Underground trains like the 92s going out to Epping, or the S8s going out to Amersham?