Late platform changes.

[zwk500]

In the example above, the berth would show occupied as soon as the train moves past the platform signal at Deansgate. Linking the CIS screens into the Signalling data feed would not give you much more warning unless the route was set well in advance of the train arriving into Deansgate

 

[Surreytraveller]

Not every station has someone looking at a map 24/7 (and even if there was a control point / info point / controller you can't gurantee they are fixed on that screen constantly).

Yes, but surely station staff should have an awareness that there's a train already not in its booked platform, that means the next one cannot occupy that platform?
Control and Signallers haven't got time to micromanage one single location when they're looking at bigger areas

 

[jfollows]

In the example above, the berth would show occupied as soon as the train moves past the platform signal at Deansgate. Linking the CIS screens into the Signalling data feed would not give you much more warning unless the route was set well in advance of the train arriving into Deansgate

I don't believe that to be the case, my memory is that - whatever the berth occupation - the platform indicators reflect the correct, altered platform much later than that, at the point the front of the train is visible from platform 4 in the case of a diversion to platform 3. I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not saying that my memory is faultless, but my experience is that this late change is a huge inconvenience and a last-minute rush. I don't believe the platform staff are aware of the change any sooner than the passengers are, either. It just looks like another case of "operational convenience" trumping passenger convenience and common sense.

 

[Pompey00]

Same thing happened to me at Basingstoke today, during a journey between Bristol Parkway and Winchester already much delayed (1 hour +) by wire issues at Cardiff Central. I had about a half hour wait at Basingstoke for the Winchester train, this was consistently shown on station displays and online as coming to Platform 3 until about 3 minutes before it was due - when it was announced as coming in on Platform 1. A steep flight of stairs down (or wait for the lift), through the subway and a steep flight of stairs up (or wait for the lift). I'm an old lady with dodgy knees - and I only just made it! If I had missed it, it would have added a further half hour minimum to my delay. I hate changing at Basingstoke, they have form for these last minute platform changes. And like others, I wonder why the change and why the last-minute communication?

Exactly they need more communication as otherwise people have wait longer because they don’t have enough time to run for it.

 

[LAX54]

Yes, clearly in the specific case I mention at Manchester Oxford Road the route into the up platform is set from MP458 at Deansgate station, yet the platform indicators didn't (don't?) change until much later than the route was set. If the indicators matched the route set it would be much less of a problem.
View attachment 122821

Think sometimes a platform alteration will not be notified on the screens until the track circuit ahead of the signal is occupied and there can be no alteration, a change set by 'route' could give rise to more confusion ! route set to booked platform, indicated on screens, something happens that may need a new platform so route set, change of platform goes out on screen...... reason for changes is then maybe not needed, so can revert to booked platform, route reset, on the screens it all gets changed again !

 

[timothyw9]

Manchester Piccadilly is a bit of a nightmare when any kind of unit alteration takes place:- ie Arrival from Hull to work Cleethorpes and vice versa. Quite often the original train coming into the berth will trigger the auto annoucements for a platform change, despite the fact the train working the service is already in the station and has the headcode in the correct berth .(normally the booked platform as well)

 

[cin88]

Manchester Piccadilly is a bit of a nightmare when any kind of unit alteration takes place:- ie Arrival from Hull to work Cleethorpes and vice versa. Quite often the original train coming into the berth will trigger the auto annoucements for a platform change, despite the fact the train working the service is already in the station and has the headcode in the correct berth .(normally the booked platform as well)

As an ex Picadilly announcer, that's entirely on the announcers for not breaking the association between a given train's inbound working and it's next working in the CIS system. When I worked there we were required to manually announce all platform alterations to prevent confusion caused by this issue. The SSM in Picadilly box and often TPE control (where a TPE unit swap is concerned) will have already told the announcers about the alterations in advance of the arrival of the relevant inbound workings to give them time to change the CIS and make the appropriate announcements.

 

[AndrewE]

However, what the platform staff do then have a responsibility for is dispatching the train adequately. Isn't that why they are there? What are the instructions when passengers are suddenly having to make their way across between platforms? Do the staff have to see they have all made it over? Or do they slam the train doors in their faces and send it off?

But what do you mean by the weasel words "dispatching adequately?"
As a passenger (nowadays) I would say that having got all the passengers who had been mislead into obediently waiting on the advertised platform safely over the bridge, down the stairs and onto their train is the minimum of "adequately."

I can see that some operators might be obsessed with trying to send trains off down the Castlefield corridor as close to their booked time as possible (ignoring the travelling public's needs) but having - if briefly - been a member of platform staff I know I would rather have a slightly delayed train than a crowd of angry people buzzing round me asking when the next train forward was coming? Would they have to wait an hour for the next train to where they wanted to go? What happens if they get to somewhere in the E of England to find that their last connenection to somewhere remote has already left?

I regularly travel to Oxford Rd, but usually walk from Piccadilly now as the service was so sparse when I last looked... I was amazed to see 8 departures an hour on RTT just now.

 

[Falcon1200]

Another desperately poor example of late platform changes occurred at Birmingham New Street yesterday (Friday 28th October), involving 1F34 0803 to Liverpool Lime Street and 9S44 0815 to Edinburgh (0643 ex Euston).

9S44 was shown on the platform screens as the next train from Platform 4, with 1F34, due to late arrival of its inward working, shown as the second train at Platform 4, albeit expected at around 0815 also. So, at 0814, with the screens still displaying Edinburgh, an 8-car 350 (stock for 1F34) arrives in Platform 4 - Cue hurried phone calls from Platform staff with 9S44 now moved to Platform 3 and a mass exodus of passengers and luggage via stairs, escalators and lifts from 3 to 4. Thanks to its late inward train, 1F34 departed 19 minutes late at 0822, with 9S44 arriving 8 minutes late and departing 10 minutes late, following 1F34. As a result of all this, and losing its path, 9S44, which had been only 2 minutes late at Proof House Junction, just outside New Street, was 35 minutes late at Carlisle.

Perhaps the signallers controlling New St were short-staffed, or under particular pressure at the time, but surely someone could have realised that an 8-car 350 and a Pendolino cannot possibly occupy the same platform at the same time, and one of the services should have been replatformed in advance. Just another incident that gave passengers a terrible impression of the competence and management of our railway.

 

[The exile]

It can be - but often the route being set into the platform is at the very last signal.

Is this an issue that has got worse with automatic route setting? Certainly seems to have done.
What I also don’t understand is the massive lag between routes being set up (as seen on “staff information” screens) and platform CIS - sometimes 2 or 3 minutes - which is a lot If passengers need to move.

 

[Timmyd]

Elephant and Castle down is terrible for this between platforms 2 and 4. All trains from seem able to use any platform and last minute changes with minimal notice are common

 

[HantsExile]

It’s unusual for Winchester bound trains to be booked through platform 3. Would I be correct in guessing it was a Cross Country service? It all depends on whether there are any other late running services in the area at the time. It might be that there was a London bound service that was also booked to pass through platform 3, and the signaller thought it would be better all round for your train to change to platform 1.

Basingstoke ASC are actually one of the better boxes when it comes to regulating and communication with the station team.

Yes I'm much more used to Winchester trains leaving from platform 1 at Basingstoke. This was a SWR train, though, and as I say clearly indicated as coming in on platform 3 until virtually the last minute. Due to GWR delays I had missed my connection at Reading to the Cross Country train which would have taken me directly to Winchester, avoiding the Basingstoke change. So I was even more grumpy to be further inconvenienced by the last minute dash!

 

[Horizon22]

Yes, but surely station staff should have an awareness that there's a train already not in its booked platform, that means the next one cannot occupy that platform?
Control and Signallers haven't got time to micromanage one single location when they're looking at bigger areas

Sure, but can they guaranteee with 100% where that train will then go otherwise? At smaller stations perhaps, and even at larger stations someone with good local experience might know, but can it be guaranteed.

You're right they can't micro-manage, but station staff doesn't always have all the tools to know so this situation occasionally occurs. Often control does might have to though, as they are the ones with the control to amend the CIS (or there is someone locally available at larger locations, it really does vary).

Is this an issue that has got worse with automatic route setting? Certainly seems to have done.
What I also don’t understand is the massive lag between routes being set up (as seen on “staff information” screens) and platform CIS - sometimes 2 or 3 minutes - which is a lot If passengers need to move.

I'm not sure - it not relies on the berth and tracking and at some places this is worse than others. ARS might have a part to play, espoecially duri ng disruption or things not going into booked platforms.

 

[Taunton]

I'm not sure - it not relies on the berth and tracking and at some places this is worse than others. ARS might have a part to play, especially during disruption or things not going into booked platforms.

Surely Automatic Route Setting would make handling such things easier, because when it sets a route different to plan it can trigger automatically screen display changes and PA announcements.

 

[louis97]

Surely Automatic Route Setting would make handling such things easier, because when it sets a route different to plan it can trigger automatically screen display changes and PA announcements.

ARS only sets routes for the booked path (there are a tiny number of exceptions to this e.g Platform 9/10 at Reading in the up direction), so the signaller has to intervene to get a train to go against its booked path/platform.

Think sometimes a platform alteration will not be notified on the screens until the track circuit ahead of the signal is occupied and there can be no alteration, a change set by 'route' could give rise to more confusion ! route set to booked platform, indicated on screens, something happens that may need a new platform so route set, change of platform goes out on screen...... reason for changes is then maybe not needed, so can revert to booked platform, route reset, on the screens it all gets changed again !

The information systems don't look at track circuit occupation, just the location of the train in the train describer berths. Some information systems can handle platform alterations by route set (but the information required for this to work isn't available everywhere) and the information systems themselves have been known to be unreliable with this function (although I think it was poor configuration rather than the system itself), so it isn't used widely.

I don't believe that to be the case, my memory is that - whatever the berth occupation - the platform indicators reflect the correct, altered platform much later than that, at the point the front of the train is visible from platform 4 in the case of a diversion to platform 3. I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not saying that my memory is faultless, but my experience is that this late change is a huge inconvenience and a last-minute rush. I don't believe the platform staff are aware of the change any sooner than the passengers are, either. It just looks like another case of "operational convenience" trumping passenger convenience and common sense.

What you say checks out for the train describer stepping being the trigger for the platform alteration, the information system Northern use is a little bit on the slow side so might take a few seconds to update. So by the time the train has passed the signal, train describer has stepped and the information system has realised the change, the train could very well be visible from platform 4.

 

[2192]

Think sometimes a platform alteration will not be notified on the screens until the track circuit ahead of the signal is occupied and there can be no alteration, a change set by 'route' could give rise to more confusion ! route set to booked platform, indicated on screens, something happens that may need a new platform so route set, change of platform goes out on screen...... reason for changes is then maybe not needed, so can revert to booked platform, route reset, on the screens it all gets changed again !

Eastbound passengers at Manchester Oxford Rd could always get the first train to Piccadilly and change there. If there is a platform alteration at Piccadilly at worst is just to walk from one side of the platform to the other.

 

[sjm77]

Eastbound passengers at Manchester Oxford Rd could always get the first train to Piccadilly and change there. If there is a platform alteration at Piccadilly at worst is just to walk from one side of the platform to the other

TRUE!
However a consideration that some people take is the chances of getting a seat. For Westbound/Northbound services I prefer to join at Piccadilly as you can mostly get a seat [even if you have to wait until those leaving at Oxford Road have risen from theirs], boarding at Oxford Road is a much more risky gample. Obviously there is a similar situation in the opposite direction too unless you are going to the Airport perhaps where many trains are only 50% full.

 

[Sunil_P]

Last Sunday week at Reading, the 1441 GWR that would have gone towards Wokingham and beyond from platform 15 was re-platformed to P5... at 1442!

Thereby foiling my attempt to do the underpass beneath the main line!

 

[Class800]

When I was young, I was standing with my dad on platform 5 at London Bridge waiting for the Hastings train when it suddenly came in on 4 (a different island) - a brief announcement platform 4 for Hastings and whistle, and off it went before anyone had a chance to go via the underpass. Seemed sort of normal in those days - if not ideal

 

[Mcr Warrior]

When I was young, I was standing with my dad on platform 5 at London Bridge waiting for the Hastings train when it suddenly came in on 4 (a different island) - a brief announcement platform 4 for Hastings and whistle, and off it went before anyone had a chance to go via the underpass. Seemed sort of normal in those days - if not ideal

That's happened to me, also at London Bridge, with a Southbound Thameslink service a few years ago. No chance of getting from the country end of Platform 5 over to Platform 4 in time.

 

[The exile]

Last Sunday week at Reading, the 1441 GWR that would have gone towards Wokingham and beyond from platform 15 was re-platformed to P5... at 1442!

Thereby foiling my attempt to do the underpass beneath the main line!

Did it at least wait for the passengers on platform 15?

 

[Class800]

That's happened to me, also at London Bridge, with a Southbound Thameslink service a few years ago. No chance of getting from the country end of Platform 5 over to Platform 4 in time.

That one will never happen again at least! As London Bridge used to be islands 1-2, 3-4, 5-6 and then the 'shed', but following re-modelling is a single platform 1, then islands 2-3, 4-5, 6-7, 8-9 and then a slightly smaller 'shed'. In the old configuration, platform 5 was typically for longer distance down trains (both Thameslinks to Brighton and Southeasterns originating from Charing Cross to Dover, Hastings and the like) with platform 4 usually for metro downs originating from Charing Cross. But in case of delays, due to tight headways, platform 4 was sometimes used for Dover or Hastings services at short notice. Now, platforms 3-4 are for Thameslink, 5-6 for Southeastern downs originating from Charing Cross and 7-8 for services to Waterloo East and Charing Cross (those used to be off the old 5-6). Now, if there's a switch between the two Southeastern downs originating from Charing Cross they are on the same island!

 

[Sunil_P]

Did it at least wait for the passengers on platform 15?

No, it pulled into P5 upon arrival, but only at around 1442 did they announce the change!

 

[jon0844]

Yes, but surely station staff should have an awareness that there's a train already not in its booked platform, that means the next one cannot occupy that platform?
Control and Signallers haven't got time to micromanage one single location when they're looking at bigger areas

The signaller may re-route the train, or may hold it behind a train. It will depend on whether the other line is now going to block other services, and many other factors. As you say, they haven't got time to call the station every time.

You would expect staff to be aware of what might happen, and may look at the panel to see if a route has been set, but they can't always be 100% sure just because there's a train where another one should be soon.

Is this an issue that has got worse with automatic route setting? Certainly seems to have done.
What I also don’t understand is the massive lag between routes being set up (as seen on “staff information” screens) and platform CIS - sometimes 2 or 3 minutes - which is a lot If passengers need to move.

As said before, changing the route doesn't change the CIS. The CIS goes by the head code reported in the berth of the platform. Only once the train is occupying that does it trigger a platform alteration.

At some stations, that can still be quite a while before the train is there and has stopped. At other stations, it could be very quick and give people almost no time.

Further to this, if the system is announcing something else or staff are doing a PA, the platform alteration will be queued and delayed further.

 

[_toommm_]

When I was young, I was standing with my dad on platform 5 at London Bridge waiting for the Hastings train when it suddenly came in on 4 (a different island) - a brief announcement platform 4 for Hastings and whistle, and off it went before anyone had a chance to go via the underpass. Seemed sort of normal in those days - if not ideal

I’ve had it happen at Manchester Piccadilly. I was watching on Traksy for the train on Sunday morning, and saw it came on four vice nine, with no announcements. I mentioned it to the dispatcher, who confirmed it with presumably someone in control. Luckily the train waited for us all to move over, but no one knew it went onto a different platform (not even the automatic announcer), until I prompted them.

 

[Class800]

Bristol Temple Meads seems quite bad for late changes too, but usually a few minutes notice

 

[The exile]

What I don’t get is how an information system can persistently display information that is not only incorrect but impossible. For the last two mornings, the 06.55 departure from Bath, which comes in ecs from Bristol has been a few minutes late (expected 07.02). The platform indicators have displayed “First train 07.05 Bristol TM - on time. 2nd train 06.55 Bristol TM -expected 07.02”. This is of course a physical impossibility - which has been resolved on both occasions by a last minute platform change and a further delay to the 06.55 - but an information system ought not to be abbey to display the impossible!

 

[HantsExile]

Another irritating late platform change at Southampton Central yesterday morning. The hourly service from Portsmouth to Cardiff Central had been cancelled at 08.11 and 09.11 due to (understandable) issues related to the cold weather. The 10.11 was supposedly running but late. So you can imagine the crowds on platform 3, many with suitcases, buggies etc. Very shortly before the delayed 10.11 was scheduled to arrive, a change to platform 4 was announced. As on a previous occasion I described at Basingstoke, if all those who needed to use the lifts had waited for them. they would have missed the train. So those of us who could struggled up and down the stairs - and just caught the (2 coach!) service. It was a difficult morning and I understand that signallers have to make the best decision for the service as a whole. But why not change the platform for a service less in demand and leave what was effectively three batches of passengers where they had been waiting for so long?

 

[voyagerdude220]

Bristol Temple Meads seems quite bad for late changes too, but usually a few minutes notice

I remember a couple of years ago one Sunday evening waiting for the 19:35 Bristol Temple Meads to Leeds on platform 5. It wss only announced as it arrived that it was going to alternatively use platform 15(!).

Not sure why as nothing was on 5 at the time. Luckily the train crew gave us plenty of time to move, ensuring no one missed it.

 

[etr221]

That one will never happen again at least! As London Bridge used to be islands 1-2, 3-4, 5-6 and then the 'shed', but following re-modelling is a single platform 1, then islands 2-3, 4-5, 6-7, 8-9 and then a slightly smaller 'shed'. In the old configuration, platform 5 was typically for longer distance down trains (both Thameslinks to Brighton and Southeasterns originating from Charing Cross to Dover, Hastings and the like) with platform 4 usually for metro downs originating from Charing Cross. But in case of delays, due to tight headways, platform 4 was sometimes used for Dover or Hastings services at short notice. Now, platforms 3-4 are for Thameslink, 5-6 for Southeastern downs originating from Charing Cross and 7-8 for services to Waterloo East and Charing Cross (those used to be off the old 5-6). Now, if there's a switch between the two Southeastern downs originating from Charing Cross they are on the same island!

While that specific case may not recur, there are still possibilities for last moment changes of island at London Bridge - one in particular was discussed here a year or two or three back, when a Thameslink was diverted on to one of the SE platforms.

There are frequent announcements and posters aimed at passengers saying, essentially, be in ample time for your train (without needing to run), so as not to delay it: if a late change (or just making announcement) is required (and I would accept that at times it will be), then adequate time should be allowed for passengers to make the change - and for a different island that is going to mean 5 or 10 minutes - and should be factored into the decision process.

When it comes to, trains are run for passengers, not the other way round, and passengers feel that 'on time' (or not) means for them, not the train.