OO - why is this inaccurate gauge so popular?

[Sunil_P]

Let's see now - 1:76 scale train body shells running on 1:87 scale track. Making the track gauge 2.3 mm too narrow (12% difference). Or, if you prefer, the body shells 12% too big.

 

[RichJF]

I agree - technically inaccurate. However it's been popular in the UK since the 1930s. It was created as the mechanisms at the time wouldn't fit inside an accurate 1/87 tooling.

Outside the UK, HO & N scale are MUCH more popular.

 

[John Webb]

I suspect the popularity is because it's been around so long. I don't know how much you know of the history of this gauge/scale, but when it started before WW2 it was found difficult to fit the existing mechanisms for 'HO' scale (3.5mm/ft) as used for American and Continental models into the smaller bodies of British locos built to the same scale. So the scale of 4mm/ft was adopted in the UK to make the bodies that much larger to house the mechanisms.

 

[Iskra]

I do wonder whether rather than the recent TT tangent, someone doing proper oo track or correct scale models might have been a better gambit?

 

[Cowley]

Let's see now - 1:76 scale train body shells running on 1:87 scale track. Making the track gauge 2.3 mm too narrow (12% difference). Or, if you prefer, the body shells 12% too big.

It was one of the compromises that I could never quite get over personally and in the end was one of the reasons why I decided to convert to N gauge.

I think if I ever went back to 4mm scale I’d probably have to go for P4 or EM even if it was a bit more work. Each to their own though because the amount of stuff available in 00 does make the scale very attractive.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I do wonder whether rather than the recent TT tangent, someone doing proper oo track or correct scale models might have been a better gambit?

Problem is both track and models would need retooling, even though the bodyshells of most 00 models are accurate (scale wise), all the wheels sets/bogies would need to be reworked. I think for any mainstream manufacturer to ditch 00/4mm and go straight to accurate scale in its ideal sense, would be suicide after all these years, as many people (myself included) have built our models/collections based around the most popular range, simply because of the variety available, and simply couldn't afford to do a whole sale switch. Any manufacturing switch would have to be a very gradual process, toe in the water sort of thing, which may or may not succeed, but would be a very long time in getting to the current level of availability and thus popularity? Interesting to see how this revitalised TT goes. Anyone else remember the old TT? Those who do wish for more accuracy often go to P4 and EM (as said above), or just go with HO and a non UK theme.
I run a small number of HO Union Pacific locos (occasionally), having been impressed many years ago by a film of freights climbing Sherman Hill between Cheyenne and Laramie, Wyoming, in the 40/50's. The (model) Big Boys and Challengers are fine going round No 2 radius Peco/Hornby curves, although speed is kept down, and one has to be mindful that any trackside scenery in the vicinity of the curve has to be further back from the track as the cab overhang on such bends is somewhat wide!....

 

[12C]

Unfortunately the compromise of 00 is related to the compromises of the ‘big railway’ in having a restricted loading gauge compared to elsewhere in the world.

It was very difficult in the 1930s when smaller scales were being developed to fit mechanisms into smaller UK size loco bodies, whereas the larger loading gauges of the continent and USA meant it was possible at the time to use the more accurate 3.5mm to the foot scale. So 00 became the compromise. Since then nobody has been brave enough to change, as producing UK HO has always been perceived to be unpopular as it would be incompatible with existing layouts and products.

Lima were a rare example in the 70s who tried to introduce a range of UK HO models, I remember a class 33 and Mk2 coaches, but as predicted they did not sell well and were quickly dropped in favour of 00, with secondhand HO models gracing the bargain bins of model shops ever since.

It was one of the compromises that I could never quite get over personally and in the end was one of the reasons why I decided to convert to N gauge.

I hate to break it to you but ‘N’ gauge is exactly the same, with the UK having the inaccurate scale of 1:148, whereas most of the world uses the more accurate 1:160. It is definitely less noticeable at that size though!

 

[Cowley]

I hate to break it to you but ‘N’ gauge is exactly the same, with the UK having the inaccurate scale of 1:148, whereas most of the world uses the more accurate 1:160. It is definitely less noticeable at that size though!

You are right of course. It just seemed to me that if you used N in conjunction with Code 55 finescale track the whole look of the thing worked quite a bit better.

Saying that, I do miss the variety of stock that’s available in 00 I must admit.

 

[12C]

You are right of course. It just seemed to me that if you used N in conjunction with Code 55 finescale track the whole look of the thing worked quite a bit better.

Saying that, I do miss the variety of stock that’s available in 00 I must admit.

You definitely don’t notice the difference as much in N, the smaller you go the more you can get away with the gauge not being quite right.

I’m tempted to give TT 120 a go in future but as you say I’d miss the sheer range of 00 models.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Slightly away from gauge matters, when I first began modelling in the 1970s and the move to P4 was in its infancy, purists claimed that all matters should truly reflect actual railway practice and I was at pains to point out that certain modelling techniques did not always reflect the actual reality they sought to achieve and cited the fact that no British railway company ever ran their services on tracks on copper-clad sleepers.

 

[Cowley]

Slightly away from gauge matters, when I first began modelling in the 1970s and the move to P4 was in its infancy, purists claimed that all matters should truly reflect actual railway practice and I was at pains to point out that certain modelling techniques did not always reflect the actual reality they sought to achieve and cited the fact that no British railway company ever ran their services on tracks on copper-clad sleepers.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Saying that, I do miss the variety of stock that’s available in 00 I must admit.

You don't do too bad with N really... you'll be getting 319s shortly I believe, an area that's distinctly lacking in the more "mainstream" OO (as there's a current thread on that very subject).

I'm not overly concerned about the inaccuracies, I just tell myself it's the big railway that's got it wrong!

That said, I may dip my toes into the TT experiment, if only to give my dad's old Tri-ang bits a run out.

 

[Cowley]

You don't do too bad with N really... you'll be getting 319s shortly I believe, an area that's distinctly lacking in the more "mainstream" OO (as there's a current thread on that very subject).

I luckily managed to get pretty much all of what I needed for the area that I was modelling but it would be quite difficult to do that now as it seems to be very hard to get hold of a lot of the bread and butter stuff like blue and grey mk1 and mk2 coaches.

I'm not overly concerned about the inaccuracies, I just tell myself it's the big railway that's got it wrong!

I think they have. I blame Stephenson.

That said, I may dip my toes into the TT experiment, if only to give my dad's old Tri-ang bits a run out.

I’ve been toying with the idea of doing something in 0 gauge in the garden recently. It’s a scale I’ve never done but there’s some great stuff available now. I probably would have to sell a kidney though…

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I luckily managed to get pretty much all of what I needed for the area that I was modelling but it would be quite difficult to do that now as it seems to be very hard to get hold of a lot of the bread and butter stuff like blue and grey mk1 and mk2 coaches.

Yeah, I can see that being a pain. The usual issue with coaches is the astonishing number of half-brake coaches that clutter up shelves in shops or stalls at exhibitions. Despite not having room for it, I'm slowly trying to create the old 1990s Intercity "charter" rake of Swallow Mk1s with white roofs. Hornby seem to only have the brake composite, and for any others you have to go back to Replica Railways... even those are as rare as rocking horse droppings. I saw one on Ebay yesterday that was visibly falling apart in the photos, but the seller wanted £40 for it!

 

[Cowley]

Yeah, I can see that being a pain. The usual issue with coaches is the astonishing number of brake coaches that clutter up shelves in shops or stalls at exhibitions. Despite not having room for it, I'm slowly trying to create the old 1990s Intercity "charter" rake of Swallow Mk1s with white roofs. Hornby seem to only have the brake composite, and for any others you have to go back to Replica Railways... even those are as rare as rocking horse droppings. I saw one on Ebay yesterday that was visibly falling apart in the photos, but the seller wanted £40 for it!

I like your style. I think you should keep at it.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I like your style. I think you should keep at it.

It may take years at this rate... or I could just buy regular Swallow mk1s and paint the roofs white... but then I'd have to renumber them, and there are only a few things in this world that give me anxiety like water transfers do!

I suppose that's the appeal of N scale- the numbers are too tiny to read!

 

[Cowley]

It may take years at this rate... or I could just buy regular Swallow mk1s and paint the roofs white... but then I'd have to renumber them, and there are only a few things in this world that give me anxiety like water transfers do!

That’s another reason for going N gauge. You can’t read the numbers because they’re too small.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That’s another reason for going N gauge. You can’t read the numbers because they’re too small.

I've just jinxed us with an afterthought!

 

[tbtc]

The usual issue with coaches is the astonishing number of half-brake coaches that clutter up shelves in shops or stalls at exhibitions

I’ve started quietly collecting things suitable for a mid ‘80s layout, somewhere I can get away with mainly four coach trains rather that the dozen that some mainline ones might have been, I don’t have space to accommodate trains of that length, but looking at eBay at least two thirds of Mk1/Mk2 coaches in blue/grey are at least part First/ buffet/ brake (often the carriage is fully First/ buffet/ brake), whereas to be semi realistic I’d want at least three coaches worth of second class, ideally three and a half coaches worth of second class - I don’t think that many short passenger trains had full buffets or an entire coach devoted to the Guard - but I guess in the interests of keeping things interesting it was easier for Hornby to sell a fairly equal number of a variety of carriage types because kids will have found that more exciting than the three identical carriages that real trains often had

If I were running a proper layout with a Deltic powering a dozen coaches then I’d have no problems with full breaks etc , and such “inter city” services would have had generous First Class, but it’s a bit OTT on the kind of “Provincial” route I actually have space/money for

I'm slowly trying to create the old 1990s Intercity "charter" rake of Swallow Mk1s with white roofs. Hornby seem to only have the brake composite, and for any others you have to go back to Replica Railways... even those are as rare as rocking horse droppings. I saw one on Ebay yesterday that was visibly falling apart in the photos, but the seller wanted £40 for it!

Ah, you’re one of the other ones looking for them on eBay?

I’ve dipped my toe in the water a couple of times because I loved the fact that some of the humble Mk1s were elevated to the “Flagship” livery of the era, but coaches are rare and going for daft prices - as you say - it’s a niche one but I’m glad they brought some out

 

[Gloster]

That said, I may dip my toes into the TT experiment, if only to give my dad's old Tri-ang bits a run out.

I would check the wheel standards if this is your main reason for testing the water. It is quite likely that the old TT stuff had steamroller wheels and there won’t be a big enough gap between the switch and stock rails.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I’ve started quietly collecting things suitable for a mid ‘80s layout, somewhere I can get away with mainly four coach trains rather that the dozen that some mainline ones might have been, I don’t have space to accommodate trains of that length, but looking at eBay at least two thirds of Mk1/Mk2 coaches in blue/grey are at least part First/ buffet/ brake (often the carriage is fully First/ buffet/ brake), whereas to be semi realistic I’d want at least three coaches worth of second class, ideally three and a half coaches worth of second class - I don’t think that many short passenger trains had full buffets or an entire coach devoted to the Guard - but I guess in the interests of keeping things interesting it was easier for Hornby to sell a fairly equal number of a variety of carriage types because kids will have found that more exciting than the three identical carriages that real trains often had

If I were running a proper layout with a Deltic powering a dozen coaches then I’d have no problems with full breaks etc , and such “inter city” services would have had generous First Class, but it’s a bit OTT on the kind of “Provincial” route I actually have space/money for




Ah, you’re one of the other ones looking for them on eBay?

I’ve dipped my toe in the water a couple of times because I loved the fact that some of the humble Mk1s were elevated to the “Flagship” livery of the era, but coaches are rare and going for daft prices - as you say - it’s a niche one but I’m glad they brought some out

With regard to coaches, one thing I've heard is that manufacturers would make equal numbers of each type- meaning that once everyone has bought what they want for their rake (say one or two half brakes, one buffet, one first and three seconds, though your mileage may vary) the retailers are left with a surplus of buffet cars and brake coaches.
I can certainly see the appeal for younger modellers to have three different types rather than a uniform rake of three trailer standards. Back when I was a kid, my brother managed to get a Lima Deltic and three coaches (a mk1 buffet, a mk2 first, and a mk2 brake first) for just £22.50. It was certainly more interesting for us having three different types.

As for the elusive white roof mk1s, with the decrepit one that's on Ebay at the moment the seller states that it needs a lock of paint... I'm tempted to message them saying it needs glue more than paint, but that would probably break some unwritten (or written) rule!

I would check the wheel standards if this is your main reason for testing the water. It is quite likely that the old TT stuff had steamroller wheels and there won’t be a big enough gap between the switch and stock rails.

Thanks for the heads-up, I'll investigate before I splash out on any new stuff! If it all seems OK, I'll probably stick with BR steam era stuff rather than the HSTs as that's what my dad's old bits and bobs are.

 

[tbtc]

With regard to coaches, one thing I've heard is that manufacturers would make equal numbers of each type- meaning that once everyone has bought what they want for their rake (say one or two half brakes, one buffet, one first and three seconds, though your mileage may vary) the retailers are left with a surplus of buffet cars and brake coaches.
I can certainly see the appeal for younger modellers to have three different types rather than a uniform rake of three trailer standards. Back when I was a kid, my brother managed to get a Lima Deltic and three coaches (a mk1 buffet, a mk2 first, and a mk2 brake first) for just £22.50. It was certainly more interesting for us having three different types

Aye, feels like the problem is essentially:

1960s-mid 1980s: model railways are a hugely popular toy for Baby Boomers/ older half of Generation X - since it was a toy they were keen to make it as interesting as possible with features like the giraffe that ducked down when it came near an obstacle or that 08-hauled freight train with the missiles and helicopter or the “ore” set where you lined up to trains to let the load fall from one hopper into the one directly below it - selling them a rake of coaches/wagons meant giving them lots of variety with obvious differences (hence the Weetabix wagons and other colourful “goods” that each required only a single truck in a longer take!

21st Century: The market has moved/ evolved into “realistic scale model” (inherent problems with oo pointed out by the OP aside), the smaller number of people still buying are seeking realism, and now understand that (outside of the top tier routes) BR operated a lot more “common or garden” Second Class carriages than full buffets / trains with multiple brake vans/ First Class was much more restricted than the layouts of our childhood suggested

So “sellers” have a surplus of buffets etc, and the only way that they can get rid is by including them in rakes where you’re buying two or three coaches you don’t really want in order to get the one that you do

(baby clothes in places like Mothercare used to operate on the same principle btw - you see a top that you like the look of, it may have a funny slogan on it or a cute drawing… upon further look it’s being sold as part of a three pack… and the other two tops included are a plain green one and a plain yellow one… so instead of paying the fiver you’d planned to spend, you now face the dilemma of either buying “three for fifteen” or walking away… but the other two tops are pretty unremarkable and you’d never pay five pounds for either of them… there’s just no way of buying the one good thing for £5 - I think that this is one reason why parents switched to places like Primark)

 

[Iskra]

I’ve started quietly collecting things suitable for a mid ‘80s layout, somewhere I can get away with mainly four coach trains rather that the dozen that some mainline ones might have been, I don’t have space to accommodate trains of that length, but looking at eBay at least two thirds of Mk1/Mk2 coaches in blue/grey are at least part First/ buffet/ brake (often the carriage is fully First/ buffet/ brake), whereas to be semi realistic I’d want at least three coaches worth of second class, ideally three and a half coaches worth of second class - I don’t think that many short passenger trains had full buffets or an entire coach devoted to the Guard - but I guess in the interests of keeping things interesting it was easier for Hornby to sell a fairly equal number of a variety of carriage types because kids will have found that more exciting than the three identical carriages that real trains often had

If I were running a proper layout with a Deltic powering a dozen coaches then I’d have no problems with full breaks etc , and such “inter city” services would have had generous First Class, but it’s a bit OTT on the kind of “Provincial” route I actually have space/money for

This is why Scotland appeals when you don't have that much space to play with...

Google Image Result for https://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/1/7/2/6172.1136926800.jpg

Google Image Result for http://www.eastbank.org.uk/images/North/UK0646.jpg

Google Image Result for https://live.staticflickr.com/3701/9880772225_f345dec6c2_b.jpg

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I’ve started quietly collecting things suitable for a mid ‘80s layout, somewhere I can get away with mainly four coach trains

This is why Scotland appeals when you don't have that much space to play with...

I was going to suggest same, space wise, which also is part of my interest, not least because type 2's and three/four coach Mk1 trains on the far North and WH are also a very fond memory for me.

 

[xotGD]

There were plenty of 3 or 4 coach loco-hauled trains in the North East in the 1980s on DMU replacement turns.

A layout of somewhere in the Tyne Valley or Durham Coast could feature these.

You would need plenty of weathering for the Gateshead 37s, mind!

 

[Iskra]

There were plenty of 3 or 4 coach loco-hauled trains in the North East in the 1980s on DMU replacement turns.

A layout of somewhere in the Tyne Valley or Durham Coast could feature these.

You would need plenty of weathering for the Gateshead 37s, mind!

Plenty of loco-hauled DMU's too!

 

[tbtc]

This is why Scotland appeals when you don't have that much space to play with...

Google Image Result for https://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/1/7/2/6172.1136926800.jpg

Google Image Result for http://www.eastbank.org.uk/images/North/UK0646.jpg

Google Image Result for https://live.staticflickr.com/3701/9880772225_f345dec6c2_b.jpg

I was going to suggest same, space wise, which also is part of my interest, not least because type 2's and three/four coach Mk1 trains on the far North and WH are also a very fond memory for me.

Re the above two posts, it’s very tempting. The thing that sparked my interest as a child was setting “Kyle Of Tongue” in my dad’s Railway Modeller (mid 1980s?) and realising that layouts could reflect my reality

I lived further south in Scotland at the time but the models I generally saw were either the “oval with maybe a couple of sidings” layouts of kids of my generation (because that’s all we got in the train set box/ that’s all we had space for/ that’s all the pocket money could afford) or layouts in the magazines which always seemed to be heavily influenced by GWR branches and tank engines (which felt like a thousand miles away and probably a thousand years ago to my childhood brain)

Kyle of Tongue was set on the north coast of Scotland, the terminus of a fictitious spur off the Far North line to head north west rather than the north east bound route towards Thurso/ Wick (just enough blend of fiction and reality to make it feel plausible), it was a layout where a Class 26 and three or four Mk1s was sufficient for most services (I’ve think this was before Lima started doing 26s and 27s, so was presumably converted 33s?)

Since then, I suppose it’s always been a benchmark, an aspiration, I’d probably like to replicate something a bit less rural but if I’d not seen that layout when I did I’d probably have no interest in the model side of railways whatsoever

There were plenty of 3 or 4 coach loco-hauled trains in the North East in the 1980s on DMU replacement turns.

A layout of somewhere in the Tyne Valley or Durham Coast could feature these.

You would need plenty of weathering for the Gateshead 37s, mind!

That’s a good shout, I wondered about using Hartlepool as a starting point, I’ve liked the idea of a layout with a bottleneck (e.g. one where southbound trains need to cross over to the northbound platform, because the station’s second platform is out of action), to force me to work a little harder, rather than seeing two trains loop round in opposite directions all day (see also Montrose with its single line section immediately south of the station and Ladybank where the Perth branch is only accessible from the northbound line, so southbound trains from Perth towards Edinburgh have to stop on the “wrong” side and occupy the line that a Dundee- bound train would take)

The Durham Coast would give a few options for freight too, if I set it a few years ago… hmm… tempting!

 

[eldomtom2]

I hate to break it to you but ‘N’ gauge is exactly the same, with the UK having the inaccurate scale of 1:148, whereas most of the world uses the more accurate 1:160. It is definitely less noticeable at that size though!

It's not just the size but also that 1:148 and 1:160 are closer together than 1:76 and 1:87.

An interesting addendum to this topic is Hornby's recent announcement of a TT range - ditching the 1:100 scale used in the UK during TT's brief flourishing there in the late 50s and early 60s for the internationally used and accurate 1:120.

 

[william.martin]

Let's see now - 1:76 scale train body shells running on 1:87 scale track. Making the track gauge 2.3 mm too narrow (12% difference). Or, if you prefer, the body shells 12% too big.

It is popular because you can run accurate length trains (e.g 11 car pendolino) while not wasting space or money.
For me personally, O gauge would be too large and expensive though N or 009 would be too small for my personal liking. If I was to run a train that uses narrow gauge track in the real world I would use N or 009 however I don't, so OO fits perfectly for my layout.
I am in 100% agreement about the scale inaccuracy - though when model trains were invented in OO gauge they were for children not adults looking for accuracy.

 

[GusB]

I think that most modellers realise that nothing can be completely accurate. If you're taking a layout to an exhibition, do most of the public realise that OO is slightly short of the actual gauge?

It's only rivet-counters who really nitpick about that sort of thing, and for them there are the options of EM or P4. I'm not knocking anyone who wants to make things as realistic as possible; these are people who clearly have the patience and time to do so. People like me just want to run trains and are willing to sacrifice the finer details. I've added detail packs to some of my locos in the past, but that's purely for my own benefit; it's not essential in order to actually enjoy the hobby.