"Tram buses"

[fandroid]

I'm getting a lot of feeds on my smartphone effectively advertising "futuristic" new "tram buses" about to be introduced in London. As they are four-wheel rigid single deckers, I can't see any tram features at all except the very superficial ones of wheel covers and a curved front end. Can anyone reveal anything that might justify this re-badging of a bog-standard bus?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm getting a lot of feeds on my smartphone effectively advertising "revolutionary" new "tram buses" about to be introduced in London. As they are four-wheel rigid single deckers, I can't see any tram features at all except the very superficial ones of wheel covers and a curved front end. Can anyone reveal anything that might justify this re-badging of a bog-standard bus?

In short, no. It's just another (electric) Wright Streetcar, basically.

 

[stuu]

Do you mean the Irizar ones for route 358? Bit weird looking, but not at all trams

 

[fandroid]

Do you mean the Irizar ones for route 358? Bit weird looking, but not at all trams

Yep. I read further, they're the Irizar buses for route 358. Irizar apparently name them "ieTram", so we know to to blame. The only other faintly tram-like feature is that they can recharge via an overhead gantry with its "pantograph".

 

[Flange Squeal]

Do you mean the Irizar ones for route 358? Bit weird looking, but not at all trams

I wouldn’t be surprised if after a while in service those wheel covers that give a solid-looking side will get damaged and eventually stop being replaced, so they’ll probably just end up looking like slightly more bulbous Optare Versas really.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn’t be surprised if after a while in service those wheel covers that give a solid-looking side will get damaged and eventually stop being replaced, so they’ll probably just end up looking like slightly more bulbous Optare Versas really.

Yes, they do look a bit Optare Versa-like.

Those lower windows will be a problem, too. I give it a week or so before most of them are damaged. They serve no purpose (and have potential negatives, e.g. misuse for "upskirting") so should not be there.

 

[Goldfish62]

Those lower windows will be a problem, too. I give it a week or so before most of them are damaged.

So you give it a week or two until most buses are accident damaged? You don't seem to have much confidence in the drivers on the 358.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you give it a week or two until most buses are accident damaged? You don't seem to have much confidence in the drivers on the 358.

Have you seen the lower body panels on most London buses? And steel panels flex a bit, glass just breaks.

The lower bodyside windows are an utterly stupid idea. They look bad, they could be misused, they would be easily damaged (and become dangerous when they are rather than just a bit bent), they provide no benefit whatsoever other than for dogs (!) to see out.

 

[GusB]

Route One has a report here:

Irizar ie tram fleet for Go-Ahead London makes debut - routeone

Irizar e-mobility and Go-Ahead London have confirmed that 20 ie tram battery-electric buses are due shortly for use on route 358.

www.route-one.net

Irizar ie tram fleet for Go-Ahead London makes debut​

In a long-awaited move, Irizar e-mobility and Go-Ahead London have confirmed that 20 ie tram single-deck battery-electric buses along with related charging infrastructure are due for delivery soon to convert Transport for London (TfL) route 358 to zero-emission.
They will enter service in 2023 and be charged via two 450kW inverted pantograph-based units placed at the Crystal Palace and Orpington termini. 100kW depot chargers capable of replenishing two buses simultaneously at 50kW each are also on order, all to be supplied by Irizar Group subsidiary Jema Energy and with the inverted pantograph units to be installed by EO Charging.
A first ie tram for Go-Ahead London has been completed by Irizar and it will be displayed at Euro Bus Expo at the NEC Birmingham between 1-3 November. The manufacturer says the type’s tram-esque design and airy internal approach “makes it stand out from other buses.”

The first ie tram for Go-Ahead London has been completed by Irizar e-mobility and it will be shown shortly at the Euro Bus Expo trade show
The opportunity charging approach means that onboard battery storage is optimised to maximise passenger capacity. Fitted is a single-piece front door combined with a full-width centre two-piece installation.
Opportunity charging between trips will take “less than five minutes.” A short depot-top up will be delivered after running off service.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Those low windows are interesting, good to add light but I doubt they'll come off well if they get dinged against a bollard.

I'm all for manufacturers trying to be exciting and different, though; beats yet another StreetDeck with stupidly small windows. Although it's no more quirky than a Caetano Cobus.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Route One has a report here:

Irizar ie tram fleet for Go-Ahead London makes debut - routeone

Irizar e-mobility and Go-Ahead London have confirmed that 20 ie tram battery-electric buses are due shortly for use on route 358.

www.route-one.net

What will happen to the current Citaro C2s? What route will they move to?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those low windows are interesting, good to add light but I doubt they'll come off well if they get dinged against a bollard.

I think they look, at a glance, like the bus is already damaged because they expose the underlying structural shape and aren't coordinated with the rest of the windows in shape etc.

I'd get rid, it'd look much better without, and I'm not sure it's worth having the bus easier to damage just so your dog can see out.

 

[MotCO]

Does anyone know how long these buses are? There are less seats in these buses than the 12m Citaros they replace. I've seen a report that they are 10.9m long, but can't renember where I saw that. If they are shorter, it would explain the reduction in seating capacity.

 

[geoffk]

It's a bus as it runs on rubber tyres. Trams run on rails. Of course there are various types of guided bus, of which GLT and Translohr draw power from an overhead wire and use a central guide rail. The French, normally more resistant to the mangling of their language than we are, describe these as "tramways sur pneus". Trams are clearly more "sexy" than buses, hence the description of these by the manufacturer.

 

[GusB]

Does anyone know how long these buses are? There are less seats in these buses than the 12m Citaros they replace. I've seen a report that they are 10.9m long, but can't renember where I saw that. If they are shorter, it would explain the reduction in seating capacity.

From Irizar's website:

01- Vehicles - Irizar ie tram - Irizar e-mobility

En Irizar e-mobility ofrecemos soluciones integrales de electromovilidad para las ciudades, tanto en lo que respecta a la fabricación de vehículos 100% eléctric

irizar-emobility.com

This model is developed in versions from 12m up to the 18m articulated version and with a maximum capacity of 155 people.

I would assume these are 12m.

 

[duncombec]

Whilst this idea may be new to the UK, as always, there is nothing new under the sun.

I couldn't find a picture of what I was actually looking for, which was a French bus with triangular "panel windows" to allow visibility for wheelchair users, but I did come across a similar idea on the Irisbus Crealis Neo, which seems to be used by a number of operators in France and Italy, such as in the two links below:

Irisbus Crealis Neo 18 T - TPER 1136

Trolleybus type Crealis Neo sur la ligne 13. Trolleybus : Crealis Neo 18 Mise en service : 02/2016 Réseau : TPER - Bologne Opérateur : TPER

www.flickr.com

IRISBUS Crealis Neo 18 CNG - Dunkerque | transbus.org

Autobus articulé BHNS sur la ligne C2 du réseau DK'Bus de l'agglomération de Dunkerque (Nord).

www.transbus.org

(The two links show images of the Irisbus Crealis Neo with windows in the lower panels, similar to the ie tram. The flickr link is to a trolleybus in Bologna, the Transbus link to a bus version in Dunkerque.)

Although both of these are artics, they also exist in 12m rigid form, just the online pictures of those don't how the windows very well.

Perhaps, before we start suggesting they will break, be the cause of harassment incidents, get hit regularly, etc., we might like to see whether there was a mass uptick of such incidents where similar vehicles are used?

It really is very noticeable how difficult it is for wheelchair users, and those others of reduced mobility who tend to use the tip-up seats at the front of the bus, have restricted visibility compared to those of us who can, and do, sit higher up on the side window line.

 

[johncrossley]

The Irizar ie tram isn't a new model and has been operating within 200 miles of London for several years.

File:002-Ametis N1, Irizar Ie Tram, Longueau 21052019.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

 

[busestrains]

These buses have a very small narrow front door. I am not sure that is a particularly good idea. It is not very accessible or good for busy routes like the 358 service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

These buses have a very small narrow front door. I am not sure that is a particularly good idea. It is not very accessible or good for busy routes like the 358 service.

In London, wheelchair access is via the rear door. Being able to hold onto something on both sides may actually be better for ambulant disabled.

 

[fgwrich]

These buses have a very small narrow front door. I am not sure that is a particularly good idea. It is not very accessible or good for busy routes like the 358 service.

I was thinking about this the other day, the first new single leaf door bus for London since the 1993 Wright Pathfinder? I don't recall them being very successful!

 

[Man of Kent]

From Irizar's website:

01- Vehicles - Irizar ie tram - Irizar e-mobility

En Irizar e-mobility ofrecemos soluciones integrales de electromovilidad para las ciudades, tanto en lo que respecta a la fabricación de vehículos 100% eléctric

irizar-emobility.com

I would assume these are 12m.

12.16m according to the sign next to the one on display at the Show.

More tram like is the very limited number of seats - just 36.

 

[Busaholic]

Being able to hold onto something on both sides may actually be better for ambulant disabled.

Speaking as one such, that might well be the case.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm not sure it's worth having the bus easier to damage just so your dog can see out.

Or anyone else who is low down, such as children and wheelchair users.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or anyone else who is low down, such as children and wheelchair users.

Looks too low for a wheelchair user, unless they just want to look at the pavement.

 

[busestrains]

In London, wheelchair access is via the rear door. Being able to hold onto something on both sides may actually be better for ambulant disabled.

I think it will still make it a lot slower and more difficult to enter for many. Especially pensioners boarding with their trolleys and people with young children and those with lots of bags or suitcases. I would not be surprised if it increases the dwell time at stops.

I was thinking about this the other day, the first new single leaf door bus for London since the 1993 Wright Pathfinder? I don't recall them being very successful!

Even when they ordered those tiny little 7.1m Optare Solo SE M710SE buses for the R8 they still built these with wide full sized double doors (despite all the other buses of this type being built with a narrow single door) so single leaf narrow doors certainly do not seem to have popular in London in recent times.

 

[Snow1964]

Does anyone know how long these buses are? There are less seats in these buses than the 12m Citaros they replace. I've seen a report that they are 10.9m long, but can't renember where I saw that. If they are shorter, it would explain the reduction in seating capacity.

12.16m long

358 isn’t just operated by Citaros,
as an example (from LVF), today the route used :
31 seat 10.8m streetlites WS100, 102, 103
35 seat 11.5m streetlites WS120, 122, 127
31 seat 10.8m Enviro200s (ex Metrobus) 752, 755, 758, 761
36 seat 12m citaros MEC various 52-65

Spec and data sheet for ie Tram on this link

https://irizar-emobility.com/images/01-vehiculos/fichas-tecnicas/ie-tram12-m_en_2022.pdf

 

[MotCO]

12.16m long

358 isn’t just operated by Citaros,
as an example (from LVF), today the route used :
31 seat 10.8m streetlites WS100, 102, 103
35 seat 11.5m streetlites WS120, 122, 127
31 seat 10.8m Enviro200s (ex Metrobus) 752, 755, 758, 761
36 seat 12m citaros MEC various 52-65

Spec and data sheet for ie Tram on this link

https://irizar-emobility.com/images/01-vehiculos/fichas-tecnicas/ie-tram12-m_en_2022.pdf

Thanks.

The official allocation is 12m Citaro, but three were lost in a garage fire. In the aftermath, three Omnicities were retrieved from disposal, but became time expired. The 11.5m Streetlites were for the 227, but I believe a further three were bought to replace the lost Citaros. The other buses out today were 'rogue'.

 

[Mikey C]

A lot of hype realy.

Interesting though that the larger windows are considered a good thing, when the Borismaster the the Wrights Gemini 3/Streetdeck brought back shallower upper deck windows, when compared with the larger ones of the earlier Geminis.

Is visibility out really such a problem for wheelchair users? This picture is from the TfL website, and the visibility out seems fine to me.

 

[notadriver]

Much of London is subject to a 20 mph speed limit. I suspect these vehicles will rarely exceed that ?

 

[Goldfish62]

The Irizar ie tram isn't a new model and has been operating within 200 miles of London for several years.

File:002-Ametis N1, Irizar Ie Tram, Longueau 21052019.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

Yes. The Irizar ie Tram was introduced in 2018 and is currently operating in both 12m and 18m form in Spain, France, Switzerland and Estonia at least.

As usual enthusiasts decide to write off anything a bit different or innovative (while praising similar things in other countries).

Route 358 is one the few "12m single deck" routes in London due to its physical characteristics, while loadings dictate something larger than a mid-length single decker. Furthermore TfL wanted to select a route of suitable length to test opportunity charging at both ends. Orpington and Crystal Palace are suitable locations to install the infrastructure.

Add into that TfL's belated desire to play with something a bit different that stands out and you have the ieTram. It didn't have to be the ieTram. There are a number of products on the market with a similar look, as better travelled enthusiasts will know.

Enthusiasts need not lose any sleep over whether these are going to appear all over London. They're not.

The order for these, together with artists impressions, was publicised a couple years ago so I'm surprised that their eventual appearance is such a surprise to so many!