December 2022 Timetable Changes

[Peregrine 4903]

Is there one? It isn't listed here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/different-driver-depot-route-and-traction-cards.205085/ suggesting that Brighton drivers do the Littlehampton services, but I appreciate you may know more - eg a subset of Brighton drivers at Littlehampton who specifically do these workings?

You may be right actually. I always thought there was a small Thameslink driver depot at Littlehampton.

 

[bengley]

There's no Thameslink Drivers' depot at Littlehampton. Brighton drivers work the services.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

There's no Thameslink Drivers' depot at Littlehampton. Brighton drivers work the services.

My mistake, apologies all.

 

[PGAT]

It actually seems to be from the timetable change in December.

Yes but the changes only come into effect from January 3

 

[Class170Fan]

I wonder what the snow hill lines will be like with the timetable change

 

[JonathanH]

I wonder what the snow hill lines will be like with the timetable change

Same as now - you can check times before and after by looking at two dates in open data sites and on the West Midlands Trains website.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...22-11-16/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...22-12-16/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
https://www.westmidlandsrailway.co.uk/travel-information/journey-planning/timetables

 

[WizCastro197]

I wonder what the snow hill lines will be like with the timetable change

There is already a thread about the snow hill lines

I wonder what the snow hill lines will be like with the timetable

Snow Hill Lines Likely To Stay at 4tph Long Term

West Midlands Railway have posted quite detailed and insightful responses to frequently asked questions in their latest Snow Hill Line updates. However in response to "Why can’t we timetable more services and longer trains?", we learn the intention is not to return to the pre-covid 6 trains per...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Urban-Savage]

Just looking at the northen changes for dec
the chat moss stoppers don’t fare well do they
Still one an hour and nothing to bank quay
will this increase in May 2023?
tho more relieved to see twice hourly Wigan stopper back up again

 

[Adam Evans]

Just looking at the northen changes for dec
the chat moss stoppers don’t fare well do they
Still one an hour and nothing to bank quay
will this increase in May 2023?

Yeah, it's not great for stations east of Huyton which don't benefit from the extra Wigan services that divert beyond that point. The Bank Quay stoppers allowed Whiston, Rainhill, St Helens Junction and Earlestown a broadly half-hourly service in and out of Liverpool. All of those stations (barring Earlestown which benefits from extra Northern and TfW services to Chester and Manchester) will now see only 1tph each way which will undoubtedly reduce passenger numbers. I hope the Bank Quay stoppers come back in the future although I feel it would be better if they ran a full hourly round trip to Ellesmere Port to increase North-South connectivity for St Helens and Cheshire. Doubt this would get past the DfT though as they don't seem to believe in the concept of 'build it and they will come'.

 

[JonathanH]

I feel it would be better if they ran a full hourly round trip to Ellesmere Port to increase North-South connectivity for St Helens and Cheshire. Doubt this would get past the DfT though as they don't seem to believe in the concept of 'build it and they will come'.

Probably because it doesn't apply. Runcorn East to Liverpool via Warrington is a long way round for a journey that can be made direct from Runcorn's primary station. Frodsham and Helsby aren't huge. Ellesmere Port has a frequent service via the Wirral.

Is there lots of potential demand from the stations west of Liverpool to stations south of Warrington?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably because it doesn't apply. Runcorn East to Liverpool via Warrington is a long way round for a journey that can be made direct from Runcorn's primary station. Frodsham and Helsby aren't huge. Ellesmere Port has a frequent service via the Wirral.

Is there lots of potential demand from the stations west of Liverpool to stations south of Warrington?

I doubt it. But Whiston, Rainhill, St Helens Jn, Lea Green, Earlestown and Newton would justify 2 tph (at least) to Liverpool - these stations are no different in their hinterland to any of the rest of Merseyrail. This is going to be hard to do without Northern Powerhouse Rail taking the fast services off the route, though.

 

[jonnyfan]

Our regional director at Northern said that the Liverpool to Warrington Bank Quay service required one of the highest subsidies per passenger in the region, so that service will not return unless the DfT pay for it or another source of funding is found. And I think we can rule out the DfT for the foreseeable future.

 

[Starmill]

I doubt it. But Whiston, Rainhill, St Helens Jn, Lea Green, Earlestown and Newton would justify 2 tph (at least) to Liverpool - these stations are no different in their hinterland to any of the rest of Merseyrail. This is going to be hard to do without Northern Powerhouse Rail taking the fast services off the route, though.

Hard is relative here. The December 2017 timetable delivered evenly spaced 2tph Monday - Saturday to the stations between Huyton and Earlestown, plus a third at St Helens Junction, without any performance or resourcing difficulties.

There's no technical reason why that's not possible in the December 2022 timetable. It is only the political imperatives that have put priority on other service groups, to the detriment of the Merseyrail 'City Line' group, in addition to standard British government underfunding of public services.

Heavy rail is a waste of time if it only runs hourly in urban areas. People won't use it in commercially viable numbers for trips to Liverpool city centre at such a low frequency, so it will only decay further. If there's no money for, at minimum, a half-hourly service from Whiston and Rainhill it would be better to mothball the stations and withdraw the stopping service completely. The money saved would pay for better bus services, or a tram line in a few years. The current situation is simply one of dishonesty about the basic facts.

Frodsham and Helsby aren't huge. Ellesmere Port has a frequent service via the Wirral.

2tph is likely to Liverpool is still likely to be delivered eventually from Helsby and Frodsham because it's actually being paid for by the Welsh Government. Obviously they will be via Runcorn, not Runcorn East, as you say.

 

[Parjon]

Referring to the pre-COVID passenger numbers and the relative recovery percentages, this looks to be wasting a rare non-London opportunity to stem some of the revenue bleeding versus making it worse.

Given the issues I'm not surprised the WBQ services became lame ducks, but turning the main branch of Liverpool's City Line into a 1tph is operational and financial madness.

 

[Starmill]

Referring to the pre-COVID passenger numbers and the relative recovery percentages, this looks to be wasting a rare non-London opportunity to stem some of the revenue bleeding versus making it worse.

Given the issues I'm not surprised the WBQ services became lame ducks, but turning the main branch of Liverpool's City Line into a 1tph is operational and financial madness.

Indeed. This is the reason why so many contributors have been posting their concerns about the situation becoming worse as the post-pandemic years go on, rather than better. It's not, as some hint, because we just want to do the railway down or are being overly pessimistic. It's because of the fundamental level of dishonesty in the Department about what they'd like the railway industry to deliver for them. Heavy rail cannot deliver a well-patronised, efficient service in an urban area with typical journeys under 10 miles if they're only given the resources to run an hourly service. It is an impossible task, and the Department are setting up good people working for the industry to fail.

 

[Parjon]

Indeed. This is the reason why so many contributors have been posting their concerns about the situation becoming worse as the post-pandemic years go on, rather than better. It's not, as some hint, because we just want to do the railway down oe are being overly pessimistic. It's because of the fundamental level of dishonesty in the Department about what they'd like the railway industry to deliver for them. Heavy rail cannot deliver a well-patronised, efficient service in an urban area with typical journeys under 10 miles if they're only given the resources to run an hourly service. It is an impossible task, and the Department are setting up good people working for the industry to fail.

I posted this on another thread:

"You can see in the published figures that London's system is very often only in the 70-80% range of normal.

Further to the above, this table shows why London has such a disproportionate effect on overall UK revenue. It shows the picture of the last year of normal travel.

City/region	2019-2020 passenger journeys starting or ending in area
London	1,069,920,000
Liverpool	105,646,000
West Midlands	104,984,000
Manchester	66,920,000
West Yorkshire	59,521,000
South Yorkshire	12,709,000

London lagging 10% is the equivalent of the country running almost entirely the next biggest passenger carrying area without charging passengers a penny. The cost of London's infrastructure makes it weigh heavier still."

It was about London, but it shows how much of a success the City Line improvements had been, as those numbers are up by about 10m on the previous years.

It might not make much of a dent versus London, but these changes stand to make Northern a basket case again. Both Liverpool and Manchester as cities will be hit economically by making commuter life difficult.

 

[Starmill]

It was about London, but it shows how much of a success the City Line improvements had been, as those numbers are up by about 10m on the previous years.

It might not make much of a dent versus London, but these changes stand to make Northern a basket case again. Both Liverpool and Manchester as cities will be hit economically.

The frequency and capacity expansion of the Aire and Wharfe lines is a similar story, also on Northern. However it would appear that they are holding up better both in terms of long term delivery and patronage. Sadly the 'City Line' isn't so lucky.

 

[Parjon]

The frequency and capacity expansion of the Aire and Wharfe lines is a similar story, also on Northern. However it would appear that they are holding up better both in terms of long term delivery and patronage. Sadly the 'City Line' isn't so lucky.

You seem to be suggesting the City Line hasn't been recovering. On what are you basing that? Given the difference in patronage Vs west York's, it would have to be a dramatic collapse to justify cutting services.

 

[Starmill]

You seem to be suggesting the City Line hasn't been recovering. On what are you basing that? Given the difference in patronage Vs west York's, it would have to be a dramatic collapse to justify cutting services.

I'm not really suggesting it's justified, just that Northern and the DfT have jointly decided that some routes, such as Huyton - Earlestown and Huddersfield - Castleford, are for the chop, while prioritising others, including the Aire and Wharfe lines, and some South Manchester commuter routes. I'm sure that's been approached on the basis of something rational financially, but that doesn't particularly justify it to me personally. It's just that it is what it is.

 

[Parjon]

I'm sure that's been approached on the basis of something rational financially,

I'm not!!

 

[Starmill]

I'm not!!

Point taken! I guess the wider debate about whether it is rational that mothballing whole stations or lines is wholly off the table, while slashing the service to something unusably bad is done without consultation, or really any kind of transparency at all, is for another thread. I'll just say that I'd prefer honesty about what's possible, consultation with the whole public, and transparency about how the decision is made. Right now we seem to have none of that.

 

[Greybeard33]

Heavy rail is a waste of time if it only runs hourly in urban areas. People won't use it in commercially viable numbers for trips to Liverpool city centre at such a low frequency, so it will only decay further. If there's no money for, at minimum, a half-hourly service from Whiston and Rainhill it would be better to mothball the stations and withdraw the stopping service completely. The money saved would pay for better bus services, or a tram line in a few years. The current situation is simply one of dishonesty about the basic facts.

Also on the Chat Moss line, Eccles suffers a degradation in service levels from December. The peak calls by the Chester - Leeds services, which currently give 2tph peak to/from Manchester, are being removed. There are some replacement calls by the new peak Wigan NW - Manchester Victoria services, but the timings leave gaps of up to 50 minutes at Eccles.

And commuters from Eccles to Warrington or Chester are shafted.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Point taken! I guess the wider debate about whether it is rational that mothballing whole stations or lines is wholly off the table, while slashing the service to something unusably bad is done without consultation, or really any kind of transparency at all, is for another thread. I'll just say that I'd prefer honesty about what's possible, consultation with the whole public, and transparency about how the decision is made. Right now we seem to have none of that.

I wouldn't say 1tph is unusably bad, though it is quite embarrassing when similar stations get 4tph just because of where BR chucked the third rail 40 odd years ago. If you want pointless, the service at Trafford Park, Humphrey Park and Chassen Road is it - if there's no desire to sort that, they should probably close - genuinely nobody will use 0.5tph in an urban area.

 

[Greybeard33]

I wouldn't say 1tph is unusably bad, though it is quite embarrassing when similar stations get 4tph just because of where BR chucked the third rail 40 odd years ago. If you want pointless, the service at Trafford Park, Humphrey Park and Chassen Road is it - if there's no desire to sort that, they should probably close - genuinely nobody will use 0.5tph in an urban area.

Although Chassen Road, Humphrey Park and Trafford Park get 2tph, evenly spaced, to Manchester in the morning peak and from Manchester in the evening peak.

 

[Parjon]

Point taken! I guess the wider debate about whether it is rational that mothballing whole stations or lines is wholly off the table, while slashing the service to something unusably bad is done without consultation, or really any kind of transparency at all, is for another thread. I'll just say that I'd prefer honesty about what's possible, consultation with the whole public, and transparency about how the decision is made. Right now we seem to have none of that.

On that passenger numbers thread I put a theory why the DfT decline to explain why the revenue picture is so bad when overall passenger numbers are near 90%.

The theory revolves around London lagging 10%. The rest of the country is outperforming but has to suffer cuts to bail out London due to scale. That's unpalatable so they keep their mouths shut.

That would be bad enough in terms of dishonesty.

You say that South Manchester commuter lines and West Yorkshire lines are being prioritised. They don't pay for tickets on those lines in gold ingots. Maths says those lines cannot be more profitable than another that delivers 4x the numbers.

It smacks to me of areas being given priority based solely on their political inclinations.

What about the DfT's form to date exists to convince me they wouldn't sink to this? I can't think of anything.

 

[Starmill]

It smacks to me of areas being given priority based solely on their political inclinations.

I think that there's plenty of this going on, yes. I think that there's very clear evidence of that happening with the Levelling Up Fund grants so there's a strong possibility it's carrying over.

I wouldn't say 1tph is unusably bad, though it is quite embarrassing when similar stations get 4tph just because of where BR chucked the third rail 40 odd years ago. If you want pointless, the service at Trafford Park, Humphrey Park and Chassen Road is it - if there's no desire to sort that, they should probably close - genuinely nobody will use 0.5tph in an urban area.

Numbers will never return to what they were with near perfect half-hourly. In that regard they are being set up to fail. Rainhill is only 10 miles from Liverpool.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that there's plenty of this going on, yes.


Numbers will never return to what they were with near perfect half-hourly. In that regard they are being set up to fail.

And we all know Tories hate Liverpool...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Our regional director at Northern said that the Liverpool to Warrington Bank Quay service required one of the highest subsidies per passenger in the region, so that service will not return unless the DfT pay for it or another source of funding is found. And I think we can rule out the DfT for the foreseeable future.

I can believe that for the Earlestown-Warrington leg, but Whiston-Earlestown is in the Merseytravel area and has high usage (with its cheap fares).
Warrington BQ is just a convenient place to reverse a train, and there are similar situations in the north west (eg Blackpool for Avanti).

 

[HamworthyGoods]

On that passenger numbers thread I put a theory why the DfT decline to explain why the revenue picture is so bad when overall passenger numbers are near 90%.

The revenue numbers are so bad because we aren’t seeing the full fare season ticket holders or full fare business travellers returning. The Season Ticket revenue in London and the South East and Intercity Business travel do a degree propped up the rest of the industry and that’s the bit that’s missing.

The make up in passenger numbers has swung far more towards off peak travellers using cheaper ticketing products and that’s where the shortfall is. A prime example of this is Leeds to London where the revival of business traffic has been very low but it sees higher than pre-covid amounts of leisure travel.

In a nutshell that 90% of passengers isn’t bringing in 90% of pre covid revenue.

 

[Horizon22]

I posted this on another thread:

"You can see in the published figures that London's system is very often only in the 70-80% range of normal.

Further to the above, this table shows why London has such a disproportionate effect on overall UK revenue. It shows the picture of the last year of normal travel.

City/region	2019-2020 passenger journeys starting or ending in area
London	1,069,920,000
Liverpool	105,646,000
West Midlands	104,984,000
Manchester	66,920,000
West Yorkshire	59,521,000
South Yorkshire	12,709,000

London lagging 10% is the equivalent of the country running almost entirely the next biggest passenger carrying area without charging passengers a penny. The cost of London's infrastructure makes it weigh heavier still."

It was about London, but it shows how much of a success the City Line improvements had been, as those numbers are up by about 10m on the previous years.

It might not make much of a dent versus London, but these changes stand to make Northern a basket case again. Both Liverpool and Manchester as cities will be hit economically by making commuter life difficult.

I think London suffers more from Home Counties, white-collar commuters no longer ending their journey in the AM peak, and then starting their journey in the PM peak, as opposed to Greater London residents themselves for which demand has remained relatively stable.