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Despite the government's announcement, should HS2 be cancelled?

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Taunton

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I've never seen any convincing explanation of WHY the costs of HS2 have skyrocketed so much. Presumably much of the work on standard, basic civils is as expected, so how did things end up costing so much more than the original estimates? The concrete and steel going into the bridges is the same quantities as originally designed.

What people see currently is a London to Birmingham railway, beyond that is a pipe dream.
The costs in phase 1 would be about the same whether it is built or not, because most of the work is already contracted, so this doesn't really arise.

In phase 2a nothing like the Charleroi metro has been built yet.

The reason for the costs wouldn't really be for un-doing works, it would be for work that the contractor is paid for whether they do it or not.
Not so. You pay the contractor's anticipated profit margin, they and their shareholders are happy with just that. Their arrangements with labour and materials are pretty much just confirmed and paid as they go. That's how this industry works.

The cost of construction materials has risen beyond inflation in recent times, in no small part to HS2's demand for these itself, overheating the construction supply chain. If not, they would not have inflated like they have done. Basic raw materials are being shipped in from China. There would thus be a knock-on benefit across the wider economy.
 
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Starmill

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Not so. You pay the contractor's anticipated profit margin, they and their shareholders are happy with just that. Their arrangements with labour and materials are pretty much just confirmed and paid as they go. That's how this industry works.
Indeed. And just how much of the labour for phase one hasn't been employed yet, or raw materials haven't been bought yet?
 

Peter Sarf

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Has anyone put "we can save £100 billion by cancelling HS2, let's fund the NHS instead" on the side of a big red bus yet?
It has occurred to me that this is going the way of Brexit. It is about getting out of something and no one really tried to justify staying in. For I never really saw any publicity given to countering the money saved would go to the NHS argument over Brexit. I fear the same will happen with HS2 - no one will try to justify it to those who are to decide. After all if certain papers bang on about abandoning HS2 enough then the decision makers (politicians) will decide HJS2 is not good for votes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Indeed. And just how much of the labour for phase one hasn't been employed yet, or raw materials haven't been bought yet?
What I guess has been procured is loans at the cheap rates that they were until very recently.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Which parts of 2A have already started construction?
Land purchase/compensation etc.
Some enabling works (utilities etc).
Ground investigations.
NR's redevelopment at Crewe (resignalling, and design of station extensions and WCML relocation).
Preparation of tenders/contractor engagement.
Money spent if not shovels on the ground.
I think the aim is to combine the railway contracts for Phase 1/2a so that economies of scale are realised.
 

The Planner

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The plan from Dec is, or would be if there were enough staff, to move the fast Avantis and the LNRs onto a clean 2tph each plus the Avanti semifast randomly slotted in, plus 2tph International stopper, the TfW and 2 XCs. That's about as good as it's going to get, it's really quite neat.

HS2 will remove precisely one train from that - the Avanti semifast, which could well end up continuing as a LNR service.
Nothing random about the stopper and its only 1 XC. I would also ignore anything written down about the post HS2 classic services as the WCML will get rewritten again and nothing is decided.
 

tbtc

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Feels like we’ve been in this position over and over… the people shouting against it now (Jenkins, Green Party, shady right wing think tanks etc) were always against it, I don’t know any high profile public figures who has changed their minds on it, just like most people on here seem to have the same opinions they had before - we can use Covid/ Brexit/ emergency budget etc as reasons why it’s now more important to ma make a decision one way or t’other, but really it’s the same people rehashing the same points they’ve always felt (the likes of Jenkins would seize upon any excuse to trot out an article explaining that “now we should cancel it”, whether that’s a recently discovered black hole in public finances, a war or Jupiter being retrograde in Scorpio)

I was against it a decade or so ago, then I realised just how complicated all of the alternative options were/ how they wouldn’t actually solve lots but only push the bottleneck down the line a little bit (e.g. I assumed that four tracks at Digswell would free up a lot of capacity on the ECML but you’d still be dealing with the finite platforms/ throat at King’s Cross , the three track section towards Peterborough, the flat junctions further north like the crossing at Newark… plus seeing the delays/overspend/ months of closures from trying to upgrade an existing line like the WCML twenty years ago… all of a sudden the appeal of building a brand new line look a lot better, in the way that it was better for motorists that were invested in motorways rather than trying to add an extra carriageway to lots of dual carriageways)

Post Covid, HS2 looks less important IMHO, but it’s being built to last generations so we have to look long term

A few points (that I’ve made before and will no doubt make again when we next have people demanding HS2 is cancelled)…

1. It’s funny how Keynesian a lot of enthusiasts are when it comes to reopenings etc yet very conservative when it comes to HS2. One moment I’m reading passionate pleas that spending money on reintroducing old lines will create jobs and stimulate demand to escape recession… but when it comes to HS2 the same people feel we must cancel any investment the moment the economy catches a mild cold

2. Same with expected passenger numbers; the Covid slump didn’t stop people passionately arguing for SELRAP etc (and are keen to point to lines that have bounced back to 100% or more of their 2019 passengers, yet the same folk insist that there’s no point in HS2 because the passenger numbers will have gone down significantly (presumably these are people who believe that nonsense about HS2 only being used by “businessmen”, because of course there’s no Leisure passengers between Manchester/ Birmingham/ London…)

3. You can’t insist that we spend the money “saved” on paying off national debt AND schools AND hospitals AND in general improvements to the classic rail network, especially as most of that money was going to come back through the HS2 fare box anyway

4. Weren’t we having the same arguments against Crossrail, before it opened, although now the complaints are about a lack of capacity on Crossrail (and the trains should have been longer, and at a higher frequency, because population growth will see it above capacity very shortly). Once HS2 has been running for a year, it’ll be impossible to think that people used to argue against it

5. Yes, it’s gone over budget, the BCR isn’t as good as it was, there have been delays. So just like pretty much every other heavy rail project in my lifetime then. Except that the people moaning about the “white elephant” are generally quick to excuse the increases subsidies required to fund loss making lines like Tweedbank because “you have to appreciate the bigger picture, take a holistic approach and see the unquantifiable social benefits that justify it”. Yet taking thousands of vehicles off the UK’s motorways presumably cash be ignored when it comes to HS2 and we are allowed to feel it a failure if it hasn’t returned sufficient surplus after a few months to pay off all infrastructure costs?

6. Some of the (English) “Green” criticism seems a bit strange, but then the Greens have recently been arguing against nuclear power stations because “we don’t get the benefit for twenty years” and hoping that we won’t notice that they were making similar arguments two decades ago about new power stations, power stations that would be very handy if coming on stream right about now!). At least the Scottish Greens seem to have a sensible policy on it, and I say this as someone who’d argue against most things that the Scottish Greens do!

7. Can’t help but think that a lot of enthusiasts would have very different opinions about HS2 if only it faithfully followed the (much slower) Great Central track bed in more places. Maybe, if the Government had called it “The London Extension Of The Golborne, Crewe & Curzon Street Railway”, we’d see more people in favour, because the GCCSR sounds like a suitably quaint project to get behind!

8. Rightly or wrongly, I can’t see Hunt/ Sunak scrapping it, the message it’d send out about “levelling up” and “green technology” would ruin their reputation. Defer/ descope, maybe, abandon what’s left of the Yorkshire bit for now, but given that there’s bound to be another freeze on fuel levies/ motoring taxes (to “stimulate the economy”) then cancelling the biggest railway project will look very bad

9. But, if it IS cancelled, then don’t be surprised if the general rail budget is badly hit too, rather than proportionately increased. Hunt isn’t going to suggest we use the billions “saved” to spaff on Okehampton - Tavistock, or whatever branchline you are obsessed about. Now that the Government controls pretty much everything on the railway (with no Branson/ Souter etc to be wary of), they will squeeze existing budgets; and since some costs are rising above the rate of inflation, that means real terms cuts to a lot of things. All I’m saying is, don’t rejoice if HS2 is cancelled, because if they ditch it then they’ll clearly ditch anything
 

ChewChewTrain

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If HS2 does get built, we can presumably be confident that pretty much everyone will be wanting to maximise the opportunities it gives us and make it a success. As opposed to fighting tooth and nail to stop any of its potential benefits being realised, and then saying “See, it hasn’t helped anyone just like I said it wouldn’t, so let’s get rid of it again”. Surely such a negative and unhelpful attitude would be rare outside the fanatical and those with a vested interest in us not having HS2.
 

Mikey C

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In reality the main expenditure on Stage 2b would be years away, so of no financial benefit in filling in the current black hole now anyway. it would be like scrapping the Tempest fighter jet programme which won't enter service until 2035
 

Thirteen

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2022/23 HS2 spend at 2019 prices is £5.7 bn (0.5% of total govt). Cancellation would make no difference to other services or budgets. The economy would take a hammering: 29,000 jobs lost, flow down (not trickle) including tax lost and no low-carbon high-speed railway to give further economic growth.

The cancellation talk is all far—right think tank driven, they never support any capital investment and are throwing around data that’s completely unfounded. The treasury ‘gap’ is £50bn a year and their story pushed through the media is that cancelling a £71bn railway (Manchester to London at 2019 prices) built over 15 or more years will save the day. Total nonsense and the polar opposite of what any government should do when a country is facing recession.

Phase 2a won’t get delayed or cancelled (unless they bin everything), it’s relatively cheap at £5-7 bn (2019), straightforward with no urban areas and gets HS2 to the north.
Have to admit, I'm always confused by people who think there shouldn't be any capital investment. Surely if you want infrastructure to be fit not only for the 21st Century but also the 22nd Century, you need to spend money.

I imagine if these people had their way, we would still have horse drawn carriages and steam trains.
 

AlbertBeale

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To be more specific, I was referring to the source of data e.g., 90p to £1 benefit Gilligan story which is completely unfounded - he inflated the costs (2019 prices will always be less than actual cash spend) but didn’t inflate the value of the benefits, in fact he conveniently slashed some without any justification.

The Telegraph itself recently reported that “Scrapping the second phase of HS2 would go a long way to filling the £50 billion black hole in the public finances..”. Total nonsense as outlined in my earlier post.

Jenkins in The Guardian is clinging to a similar line and there will, as you suggest, be those of all political persuasions who always dislike infrastructure investment.

I don't think many - if any - of the people I know who think HS2 is a dreadful idea "dislike infrastructure investment". It's a matter of choosing the right projects, and the using right criteria to make that choice.
 

LittleAH

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I don't think many - if any - of the people I know who think HS2 is a dreadful idea "dislike infrastructure investment". It's a matter of choosing the right projects, and the using right criteria to make that choice.
Yet those in that bracket who oppose HS2 use the same tired old arguments of just upgrading the current railway. Which costs a lot and delivers very little. Ironically, they are then the same people who whinge and moan and compare our network to mainland europe. The difference of course is to build high speed rail.
 

AlbertBeale

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Yet those in that bracket who oppose HS2 use the same tired old arguments of just upgrading the current railway. Which costs a lot and delivers very little. Ironically, they are then the same people who whinge and moan and compare our network to mainland europe. The difference of course is to build high speed rail.

With respect - you obviously don't know the people I do! They certainly don't fit the stereotype you set out.

In terms of Europe and high-speed rail ... well, some countries do that by building on existing connections, rather than completely new build (which also often lacks good connections with the existing network even at stations) - eg Germany rather than France. So Britain might have followed a different "high-speed" model.

Furthermore, a lot of what is trumpeted here (I mean in Britain, beyond just this website) as new "high-speed" lines that are leaving poor old Britain behind, is actually just straightening out and tunnelling existing routes, and doing so to bring them up to a speed not much faster than the fastest trains in this country can already run. A lot of what we're asked to be overawed by and to copy here runs at little more than half the design speed of the absurdly over-specified HS2 - a vainglorious vanity project if ever I saw one.
 

Sonik

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In terms of Europe and high-speed rail ... well, some countries do that by building on existing connections, rather than completely new build (which also often lacks good connections with the existing network even at stations) - eg Germany rather than France. So Britain might have followed a different "high-speed" model.
In fairness though, Andrew McNaughton did spend much time discussing HSR experience with other countries, including France and Germany, to feed into the specification and design of HS2. In particular he was interested in what they would have done differently if they were starting from scratch today. AIUI there were two main conclusions from this process:

1) Don't cut corners (literally and figuratively) as this lowers the long term utility of whatever you build (hence 400Kmh, 18 TPH, slab track etc.)
2) Take HSR all the way into the core population centers, as stopping short of city centers using existing network creates bottlenecks, limiting capacity. And worse, 'parkway' stations don't interface with existing regional networks, limiting potential for modal shift.

I don't think anyone could argue that the design of HS2 is not very well integrated with direct walkable connections to regional networks, apart from perhaps Totton Hub but that has been scrapped. The 'over specified ego project' argument is frankly a cheap shot that conveniently ignores the rationale behind the design decisions. Fundamentally it's about long term, overall resource efficiency, which is arguably a good thing for the environment too. I would too argue that a significant percentage of cost overrun has been driven by unnecessary civils works for the appeasement of NIMBYs, this having little to do with either ecological protection or the utility of the transport system.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Furthermore, a lot of what is trumpeted here (I mean in Britain, beyond just this website) as new "high-speed" lines that are leaving poor old Britain behind, is actually just straightening out and tunnelling existing routes, and doing so to bring them up to a speed not much faster than the fastest trains in this country can already run.
The requirement is not about speed (this benefit of HS2 is incidental) it's about capacity. We already did longer and more frequent trains on WCML so additional new lines are needed. Plus if we want to get people out of cars and planes, we need to be able to move a lot more people than the existing rail network can ever support.
 
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Grumpy Git

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Can someone please explain why HS2 was specified at 400kmh? Was there any practical reason or was it just a ‘my trains faster than your train’ willy waving exercise?
 

birchesgreen

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I think some commentators / groups will be still screaming about cancelling HS2 when some workers are applying the final coats of paint to Curzon St station in a few years time.
 

duncanp

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I can remember when Crossrail was cancelled in 1994, after the enabling bill was rejected by parliament on the grounds that a sufficient case has not been made for the line to be built.

Ultimately the scheme was revived, and now we see the Elizabeth line in operation, providing much needed rail capacity in Central London.

Is the same thing going to happen to HS2 North of Birmingham?

If you do cancel HS2 now, the issues of capacity on the West Coast Main Line are not going to go away.

Indeed, there has been comment on these forums along the lines of "...anyone who thinks that HS2 should be cancelled should have been at Euston Station last Saturday night.."

I am of the opinion that if you do cancel HS2, you have got to have a definite plan in place to deal with capacity issues on the West Coast Main Line and other areas across the North of England, otherwise we will find ourselves in the same situation as happened with Crossrail, in that the scheme is revived at a later date, when costs will be much higher, and the completion date that much further in the future.
 

Bantamzen

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Cutting HS2 achieves nothing for the government in actually addressing the fiscal issues the country faces. The money “saved” can’t be used to plug the budgetary black holes elsewhere as it doesn’t exist without the project. It’s also well proven over and over and over again that public spending on infrastructure is precisely the best means to stimulate the economy; but that doesn’t sit well with the current government’s core philosophy.

That the project’s most vocal naysayers are baying for its execution is of little surprise; but we should simply continue to ignore them and their self-serving agendas as we have done until now. The current fiscal turbulence doesn’t make any of their transparent arguments any more valid.
No in real terms cutting does not save or generate any real money, as you say it would act as a stimulus as well as ultimately providing much better infrastructure for the regions it will serve. But you will also doubtless have noted that the Chancellor has spent the last couple of weeks has been warming the public up for tax increases & spending cuts, some of which are likely to be deep & will hurt a lot. So the prospects of announcing these measures, but still remaining to be committed to a £100 billion rolling project without cuts is highly unlikely to finding Lord Lucan level.

I suspect that phase 1 will continue as speculated on here, but with the potential to cut some costs and spread the remaining over much longer. Phase 2 will go back under review, so that future Chancellors can put it to death through a thousand cuts. I would be amazed if a new alignment now ever makes it as far as Crewe, let alone Manchester.
 

Grimsby town

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In terms of Europe and high-speed rail ... well, some countries do that by building on existing connections, rather than completely new build (which also often lacks good connections with the existing network even at stations) - eg Germany rather than France. So Britain might have followed a different "high-speed" model.

And in 2018 75% of ICE services in Germany were late. There's clearly a large trade off between reliability/capacity and cost when it comes to delivering HSR. Even Germany are continuing to build 186mph+ lines so its not simply the case that Germany has a blanket lower speed for rail services. In Western Europe, the countries that haven't adopted 186mph+ are mainly located around the alps. Austria and Switzerland are the two main examples. France, Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Spain, Belgium all have 186mph+ lines so HS2 is hardly unique in being very high speed.
 

Wychwood93

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And in 2018 75% of ICE services in Germany were late. There's clearly a large trade off between reliability/capacity and cost when it comes to delivering HSR. Even Germany are continuing to build 186mph+ lines so its not simply the case that Germany has a blanket lower speed for rail services. In Western Europe, the countries that haven't adopted 186mph+ are mainly located around the alps. Austria and Switzerland are the two main examples. France, Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Spain, Belgium all have 186mph+ lines so HS2 is hardly unique in being very high speed.
Many of the lines mentioned are indeed designed to be capable of running trains at 186+. As far as I am aware only SNCF actually runs trains at 186+.
 

Harold Hill

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Feels like we’ve been in this position over and over… the people shouting against it now (Jenkins, Green Party, shady right wing think tanks etc) were always against it, I don’t know any high profile public figures who has changed their minds on it, just like most people on here seem to have the same opinions they had before - we can use Covid/ Brexit/ emergency budget etc as reasons why it’s now more important to ma make a decision one way or t’other, but really it’s the same people rehashing the same points they’ve always felt (the likes of Jenkins would seize upon any excuse to trot out an article explaining that “now we should cancel it”, whether that’s a recently discovered black hole in public finances, a war or Jupiter being retrograde in Scorpio)

I was against it a decade or so ago, then I realised just how complicated all of the alternative options were/ how they wouldn’t actually solve lots but only push the bottleneck down the line a little bit (e.g. I assumed that four tracks at Digswell would free up a lot of capacity on the ECML but you’d still be dealing with the finite platforms/ throat at King’s Cross , the three track section towards Peterborough, the flat junctions further north like the crossing at Newark… plus seeing the delays/overspend/ months of closures from trying to upgrade an existing line like the WCML twenty years ago… all of a sudden the appeal of building a brand new line look a lot better, in the way that it was better for motorists that were invested in motorways rather than trying to add an extra carriageway to lots of dual carriageways)

Post Covid, HS2 looks less important IMHO, but it’s being built to last generations so we have to look long term

A few points (that I’ve made before and will no doubt make again when we next have people demanding HS2 is cancelled)…

1. It’s funny how Keynesian a lot of enthusiasts are when it comes to reopenings etc yet very conservative when it comes to HS2. One moment I’m reading passionate pleas that spending money on reintroducing old lines will create jobs and stimulate demand to escape recession… but when it comes to HS2 the same people feel we must cancel any investment the moment the economy catches a mild cold

2. Same with expected passenger numbers; the Covid slump didn’t stop people passionately arguing for SELRAP etc (and are keen to point to lines that have bounced back to 100% or more of their 2019 passengers, yet the same folk insist that there’s no point in HS2 because the passenger numbers will have gone down significantly (presumably these are people who believe that nonsense about HS2 only being used by “businessmen”, because of course there’s no Leisure passengers between Manchester/ Birmingham/ London…)

3. You can’t insist that we spend the money “saved” on paying off national debt AND schools AND hospitals AND in general improvements to the classic rail network, especially as most of that money was going to come back through the HS2 fare box anyway

4. Weren’t we having the same arguments against Crossrail, before it opened, although now the complaints are about a lack of capacity on Crossrail (and the trains should have been longer, and at a higher frequency, because population growth will see it above capacity very shortly). Once HS2 has been running for a year, it’ll be impossible to think that people used to argue against it

5. Yes, it’s gone over budget, the BCR isn’t as good as it was, there have been delays. So just like pretty much every other heavy rail project in my lifetime then. Except that the people moaning about the “white elephant” are generally quick to excuse the increases subsidies required to fund loss making lines like Tweedbank because “you have to appreciate the bigger picture, take a holistic approach and see the unquantifiable social benefits that justify it”. Yet taking thousands of vehicles off the UK’s motorways presumably cash be ignored when it comes to HS2 and we are allowed to feel it a failure if it hasn’t returned sufficient surplus after a few months to pay off all infrastructure costs?

6. Some of the (English) “Green” criticism seems a bit strange, but then the Greens have recently been arguing against nuclear power stations because “we don’t get the benefit for twenty years” and hoping that we won’t notice that they were making similar arguments two decades ago about new power stations, power stations that would be very handy if coming on stream right about now!). At least the Scottish Greens seem to have a sensible policy on it, and I say this as someone who’d argue against most things that the Scottish Greens do!

7. Can’t help but think that a lot of enthusiasts would have very different opinions about HS2 if only it faithfully followed the (much slower) Great Central track bed in more places. Maybe, if the Government had called it “The London Extension Of The Golborne, Crewe & Curzon Street Railway”, we’d see more people in favour, because the GCCSR sounds like a suitably quaint project to get behind!

8. Rightly or wrongly, I can’t see Hunt/ Sunak scrapping it, the message it’d send out about “levelling up” and “green technology” would ruin their reputation. Defer/ descope, maybe, abandon what’s left of the Yorkshire bit for now, but given that there’s bound to be another freeze on fuel levies/ motoring taxes (to “stimulate the economy”) then cancelling the biggest railway project will look very bad

9. But, if it IS cancelled, then don’t be surprised if the general rail budget is badly hit too, rather than proportionately increased. Hunt isn’t going to suggest we use the billions “saved” to spaff on Okehampton - Tavistock, or whatever branchline you are obsessed about. Now that the Government controls pretty much everything on the railway (with no Branson/ Souter etc to be wary of), they will squeeze existing budgets; and since some costs are rising above the rate of inflation, that means real terms cuts to a lot of things. All I’m saying is, don’t rejoice if HS2 is cancelled, because if they ditch it then they’ll clearly ditch anything
You lost me at 'shady right-wing think tanks'
 

duncanp

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I think some commentators / groups will be still screaming about cancelling HS2 when some workers are applying the final coats of paint to Curzon St station in a few years time.

I still think that an opportunity was missed when it was decided not to connect HS2 to HS1, and allow through passenger trains from Birmingham Curzon Street (and elsewhere) through the channel tunnel to Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam.

The construction of a completely new station would provide the opportunity to build the necessary border control and security infrastructure, and you could possibly have the situation that exists at Lille Europe where platforms can be opened up for domestic use, or closed off for international use.

A journey time of around three hours from Birmingham to Paris or Brussels would make it competitive with the airlines, in the same way that Eurostar services from London to Amsterdam seem to be weill patronised.

There are probably reasons why it wasn't done, and it is too late to amend the situation now, but as I say it is a missed opportunity.
 

MarkyT

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And in 2018 75% of ICE services in Germany were late. There's clearly a large trade off between reliability/capacity and cost when it comes to delivering HSR. Even Germany are continuing to build 186mph+ lines so its not simply the case that Germany has a blanket lower speed for rail services. In Western Europe, the countries that haven't adopted 186mph+ are mainly located around the alps. Austria and Switzerland are the two main examples. France, Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Spain, Belgium all have 186mph+ lines so HS2 is hardly unique in being very high speed.
Also current cutting edge train tech supports speeds of up to 360kph with models such as the Siemens Velaro Novo. Building the infrastructure with some headroom for slightly higher speeds than that seems sensible seeing that it should be in service for well over a century so should see multiple generations of rolling stock that may see incrementally faster speed capability. If trains can be made faster while using no more energy through such measures as weight savings and improved aerodynamics, that is always compelling for operators as a smaller fleet and crew complement might be able to deliver the same capacity baseline, or greater capacity for growth might be delivered with the same resource levels. Coupled with better journey times, this can help make rail yet both more efficient and attractive over longer distances.
 

Falcon1200

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HS2 may reach Birmingham, but few reading this will be around to see many additions beyond Birmingham.

OTOH perhaps HS2 will be such a success in generating its own traffic, and freeing the southern part of the WCML for additional services, that the impetus to extend it further north will be irresistible?

What people see currently is a London to Birmingham railway, beyond that is a pipe dream.

The 'HS2 is just a London to Birmingham railway' allegation has been repeated so many times, but is simply not true, because all long distance trains currently using the WCML will instead use HS2, freeing the existing line for more and better stopping passenger and freight trains.

The requirement is not about speed (this benefit of HS2 is incidental) it's about capacity. We already did longer and more frequent trains on WCML so additional new lines are needed.

Indeed, we spent billions on the West Coast Route Modernisation, caused huge disruption during it, and still only have a 125mph railway shared with all types of traffic with no room for expansion.
 

irish_rail

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We live in such a different world to when HS2 was conceived. To many people, 2 hours on a train from Manchester to London is able to be used productively. The faster journey time thing isn't relevant.
Arguments on capacity, equally now seem harder to justify when fewer people are travelling .
What HS2 seems to be now is a way of turning Manchester (and perhaps Birmingham) into dormitory towns for London. With that , eventually you'll see the same crazy property prices and see young locals forced out . So be careful what you wish for, as places like Manchester could soon have all the personality of Milton Keynes, and all the priceyness of London.
Let's focus on making our existing railways great and bin HS2 now.
 

duncanp

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Let's focus on making our existing railways great and bin HS2 now.

It depends what you mean by "..making our existing railways great..."

To me, that would mean increasing capacity and service frequency, and reducing journey times, all of which are just as likely to bring Birmingham and Manchester within commuting distance of London as HS2.
 

Bletchleyite

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I can remember when Crossrail was cancelled in 1994, after the enabling bill was rejected by parliament on the grounds that a sufficient case has not been made for the line to be built.

Ultimately the scheme was revived, and now we see the Elizabeth line in operation, providing much needed rail capacity in Central London.

The Elizabeth Line is great, I'll give you that.

But was £18.8bn worth it when you consider what else could be done for that massive sum? I think it's highly questionable. You could have several regional tram networks for that, benefitting far more people.

You could probably also have done the EL itself for much cheaper if it looked more like a Tube line and less like a vanity project. It's gold plated beyond a railway enthusiast's wildest dreams.
 

Parjon

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I think the question is why wouldn't the Tories cancel the second half of this?
  1. It's easy political capital with their supporters and it does create fiscal room (whether some here want to believe it or not).
  2. The only place remaining that "directly benefited" from this was Manchester. They've spent the past 5 years telling anyone who will listen what a sht deal this is for them. How it won't work or be an economic waste. Why spend billions on something that is unsupported, only to have the recipients whinge about it.
  3. Scotland. The more spent South of the border the more compensation they will require.
  4. Liverpool. While the gov has done a good job of quietening things down for the minimal spend possible, even with the extension of the HS line to Warrington commitment there remains deep resentment and there remain activists. For now they've gone along with the line that "the initial assumptions were not right" rather than outrightly pointing fingers at individuals and stirring up all kinds. They will remain a risk until full spending equity occurs (which I assume isn't on the agenda).
There are other factors.

It's always been of questionable value to the Tories. Right now I cannot see there is anything in it for them whatsoever, and minimal to no risk of taking the axe to it.

Andy Burnham will be unhappy. So what's new?
And this time he may find his pal Mr Rotheram hard to reach on the phone.
 

stuu

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With respect - you obviously don't know the people I do! They certainly don't fit the stereotype you set out.

In terms of Europe and high-speed rail ... well, some countries do that by building on existing connections, rather than completely new build (which also often lacks good connections with the existing network even at stations) - eg Germany rather than France. So Britain might have followed a different "high-speed" model.

Furthermore, a lot of what is trumpeted here (I mean in Britain, beyond just this website) as new "high-speed" lines that are leaving poor old Britain behind, is actually just straightening out and tunnelling existing routes, and doing so to bring them up to a speed not much faster than the fastest trains in this country can already run. A lot of what we're asked to be overawed by and to copy here runs at little more than half the design speed of the absurdly over-specified HS2 - a vainglorious vanity project if ever I saw one.
The major issue, and the most important reason we are not doing that is that the existing UK network is operated pretty close to it's physical limits, and often beyond what is sensible. That isn't the case everywhere in Europe, so of course a different model can be applied. Germany is struggling now, as others have mentioned, and has plans to improve capacity around major stations in the next decade, because they recognise that having so many bottlenecks is terrible for the system as a whole. It's just as well we aren't making the same mistake.

Jenkins should be completely ignored, he was absolutely against Crossrail too, going back at least 20 years. He's hardly a sage
 

Watershed

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You lost me at 'shady right-wing think tanks'
They're hardly impartial, are they?

The same can be said of all think tanks - they basically just exist to further the political and financial aims of their funders. Accordingly, anything they suggest should be taken with a truckload of salt.
 
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