Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[Goldfish62]

As an example of the real decrease in stabling capacity that a (mostly) 10 car fixed formation scenario can have on a location not designed for same, is perhaps Wimbledon depot. Just to take one part of that location in to account, the sidings between (but not including) the shed and the District line at the Wimbledon station end of the depot. Many of these are quite short due to the (lack) of spare land available for siding extensions. I would hazard a guess that once all old suburban stock has gone and been replaced by 701 stock, the number of 'cars' (in fixed 5 or 10 car mode) able to stable in this one area alone will be in the region of about 30 cars less, than is the case with the 455/456/5 car 458 combinations, and to make things worse only two of the sidings in that group, will be able to accommodate a single 10 car fixed rake. This I imagine, will have been a major factor for the order for 701's being split between 5 and 10 car units.

I assume this is part of the reasoning for Feltham Depot, which has 10 x 10 car roads.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I assume this is part of the reasoning for Feltham Depot, which has 10 x 10 car roads.

Absolutely so my friend. I was involved in plans to resarrect Feltham over a decade and a half ago, a joint venture in conjunction with BAA and their wish for a fast route to Heathrow with stock based at Clapham. This was put to bed when we (SWD) made it clear Clapham Yard was fully engaged providing our own (SW) services, and there was no way any capacity could be given over to some new outfit. Clapham has long since been at complete full capacity on the day shift (more so than nights). I still have the original track (ground) plans for that original Feltham exercise. It was a very complex plan, and does not match that which is now in place. But it included the wholesale closure of Clapham Yard for provision of an underground (station) facility - don't even go there, you would not believe some of the plans we were presented with back then........

 

[Goldfish62]

Absolutely so my friend. I was involved in plans to resarrect Feltham over a decade and a half ago, a joint venture in conjunction with BAA and their wish for a fast route to Heathrow with stock based at Clapham. This was put to bed when we (SWD) made it clear Clapham Yard was fully engaged providing our own (SW) services, and there was no way any capacity could be given over to some new outfit. Clapham has long since been at complete full capacity on the day shift (more so than nights). I still have the original track (ground) plans for that original Feltham exercise. It was a very complex plan, and does not match that which is now in place. But it included the wholesale closure of Clapham Yard for provision of an underground (station) facility - don't even go there, you would not believe some of the plans we were presented with back then........

Ah yes, you've reminded me about those crazy plans!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

There is a key date of 30th May 2023, this is when the National Rail Contract with First MTR South Western expires (it was a 2 year contract, with 2 year option).

Some of the details are in the notes to 2021 accounts (they should be filing the 2022 accounts soon, and they will then be visible on companies House website). Link to Companies House

FIRST MTR SOUTH WESTERN TRAINS LIMITED filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

FIRST MTR SOUTH WESTERN TRAINS LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

The reason why I suggest it is a key date, is things have slipped so far with 701s and staff training on them, I actually wonder if the current Operator would find it more profitable (or less of a loss) to actually not do the training and walk away in May. It’s not like the franchise is booming and making lots of money for them. They have kept the 458s going, so a few extra weeks from early 2023 to May 2023, then it’s someone else’s problem, might be easier option.

They deliver a pretty reliable service compared to some operators so ought to make some extra income from the performance regime so unless DfT are not fully reimbursing their 701 costs why would they want to hand the keys back.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Profit or loss doesn’t apply to DfT TOCs now - it’s all about maximising your management fees, which only go one way. Nobody is going to walk away from those.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Profit or loss doesn’t apply to DfT TOCs now - it’s all about maximising your management fees, which only go one way. Nobody is going to walk away from those.

Indeed SWR get 3.3m mgt fee but can earn upto 9.9m extra on the performance fees against the following criteria

1. operational performance (including punctuality)
2. customer satisfaction
3. achieving agreed business plan

There are three levels of grading (‘below acceptable’, ‘acceptable’, ‘good’) and First say an ‘acceptable’ rating results in c.2/3 of performance-based fee element being payable. Im sure they won't earn full amount but their service reliability is pretty good and given DfT are the primary reason why strikes are happening i suspect they will have those days excluded so as we both say they aint going to walk away from this opportunity and I can't see DfT not giving them a two year extension.

 

[dctraindriver]

Indeed SWR get 3.3m mgt fee but can earn upto 9.9m extra on the performance fees against the following criteria

1. operational performance (including punctuality)
2. customer satisfaction
3. achieving agreed business plan

There are three levels of grading (‘below acceptable’, ‘acceptable’, ‘good’) and First say an ‘acceptable’ rating results in c.2/3 of performance-based fee element being payable. Im sure they won't earn full amount but their service reliability is pretty good and given DfT are the primary reason why strikes are happening i suspect they will have those days excluded so as we both say they aint going to walk away from this opportunity and I can't see DfT not giving them a two year extension.

Nicolas, just so I understand correctly, are they yearly figures or until the end of this contract?

 

[Clarence Yard]

They are yearly figures taken from FG’s statement but are only 70% of the total fees that SWR can earn as FG is only a 70% shareholder in SWR.

For example, if you look in detail in the NRC, the annual maximum performance payment for SWR can be calculated as nearly £14m.

 

[Electrostarred]

701s are a heresy against all things good about SWR, they wish to replace perfectly ok trains with horsesh- *angry SWR noises*

 

[jackot]

701s are a heresy against all things good about SWR, they wish to replace perfectly ok trains with horsesh- *angry SWR noises*

I don't think I would describe units like the 455s as 'perfectly ok trains', especially when looking toward the future - they are almost life-expired as it is and can't just run forever. They have no aircon and lack toilets, and the likelihood is that a new fleet would be cheaper in the long run as the 455s are only going to get more costly to maintain. I get that the 701s are far from ideal, but something was needed to replace the existing fleet.

As far as the 707s it may seem like a slight waste, but it's not exactly like they are going to the scrapheap. A more uniform suburban fleet makes more sense than 4 different fleets from many perspectives (cheaper operation, more flexibility and availability), its' just a shame the 701s are so bodged. As far as the 458s go, with their refurbishment now supposedly postponed it looks as if they will stay for a while now, at least until 2024 by the looks of things.

 

[Recessio]

So these 5 car 701 units, when joined for 10-car operation, do they have cab gangway doors like when a 377 is joined? Or will they run as two separate units you can't travel between without stepping off and reboarding further down the train?

 

[AlexNL]

701s, like 707s, do not have interconnecting gangways.

 

[Elorith]

I don't think I would describe units like the 455s as 'perfectly ok trains', especially when looking toward the future - they are almost life-expired as it is and can't just run forever. They have no aircon and lack toilets, and the likelihood is that a new fleet would be cheaper in the long run as the 455s are only going to get more costly to maintain. I get that the 701s are far from ideal, but something was needed to replace the existing fleet.

Regarding toilets, I'm personally not a huge fan as it just means less capacity, a lot of people won't need them considering how short their journeys will be, and besides they'll probably spend a lot of the time locked out of use anyway. It might have made more sense to have a subclass with and without toilets though (the former being for the outer surburban routes like Reading, Windsor, Guildford) and the latter for the inner subrurban network.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2022 ==

So these 5 car 701 units, when joined for 10-car operation, do they have cab gangway doors like when a 377 is joined? Or will they run as two separate units you can't travel between without stepping off and reboarding further down the train?

They'll be no gangways. My guess too is that they'll be operated similarly to the 707s where the guard has to work from the rear unit so that there's a member of staff in each part of the train.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

It might have made more sense to have a subclass

A backward step for diagramming purposes. Diagramming what has gone before, 455/456/458/707 was (is) a very complex scenario, and often (engineering works wise) more costly (crew wise) than need be, when specific types need to be repositioned ready for the start of the Monday service etc.

 

[jackot]

Regarding toilets, I'm personally not a huge fan as it just means less capacity, a lot of people won't need them considering how short their journeys will be, and besides they'll probably spend a lot of the time locked out of use anyway. It might have made more sense to have a subclass with and without toilets though (the former being for the outer surburban routes like Reading, Windsor, Guildford) and the latter for the inner subrurban network.

The toilets only take up room for a few seats at most. Adding another subclass would also add less flexibility when looking at diagrams I would imagine, as has been said above. Considering they will be running to Reading, Guildford and potentially as far as Alton I think toilets are 100% necessary to have on at least some of the units, so why not install toilets on all of them?

 

[physics34]

F

The toilets only take up room for a few seats at most. Adding another subclass would also add less flexibility when looking at diagrams I would imagine, as has been said above. Considering they will be running to Reading, Guildford and potentially as far as Alton I think toilets are 100% necessary to have on at least some of the units, so why not install toilets on all of them?

For many of us who travel from London to the suburbs after a night out even for a couple of stops, loos are a godsend. They are worth taking up 8 seats or whatever it is.

 

[Goldfish62]

Or will they run as two separate units you can't travel between without stepping off and reboarding further down the train?

From a passenger viewpoint no different to the 455s or 458s, or for that matter the 450s much of the time (on the Windsor Lines at least).

 

[LLivery]

Regarding toilets, I'm personally not a huge fan as it just means less capacity, a lot of people won't need them considering how short their journeys will be, and besides they'll probably spend a lot of the time locked out of use anyway. It might have made more sense to have a subclass with and without toilets though (the former being for the outer surburban routes like Reading, Windsor, Guildford) and the latter for the inner subrurban network.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2022 ==

I heard someone asking for a toilet on the Overground yesterday and I see people use toilets on Networkers, Electrostars and Desiros within the suburbs all the time. I don't understand this idea that they're not well used. And let's not forget, not everyone has strong bladders - I'd bet a few stations end up smelling of urine because of the lack of facilities often available.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2022 ==

F

For many of us who travel from London to the suburbs after a night out even for a couple of stops, loos are a godsend. They are worth taking up 8 seats or whatever it is.

Absolutely. Often seen them being used non stop when leaving London Bridge on an evening

 

[Goldfish62]

I heard someone asking for a toilet on the Overground yesterday and I see people use toilets on Networkers, Electrostars and Desiros within the suburbs all the time. I don't understand this idea that they're not well used. And let's not forget, not everyone has strong bladders - I'd bet a few stations end up smelling of urine because of the lack of facilities often available.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2022 ==



Absolutely. Often seen them being used non stop when leaving London Bridge on an evening

I think we can safely say that a preference for trains not to have toilets is a minority view.

 

[317 forever]

Indeed. I fear we are moving - if not already there - to a scenario where we will end up with similar overcrowding to before, but on shorter trains. Doesn't make it right from a customer perspective, whatever 50% or 70% comparisons to pre-pandemic get quoted.

I think this is already happening on Southern since the 455s were withdrawn. We have some 8-car (double 4-car) diagrams replaced by single 5-car 377s.

 

[alf]

My guess too is that they'll be operated similarly to the 707s where the guard has to work from the rear unit so that there's a member of staff in each part of the train.

On South Eastern suburban services the 707s are fully DOO just like the emus they have replaced which have never had gangway between the the units.
These older units started DOO services on South Eastern 30 years ago.
Guards only work trains on the country side of Sevenoaks & Rainham or Gillingham. And even then the drivers release the doors everywhere on every single South Eastern electric train.

 

[VWRO2]

I hear a whisper Staines may be getting a third 10 car road, but the physical space to achieve same will mean the loss of the fourth road completely.

This has already taken place with points no.3 locked away from 4 road with the conductor rail removed. Absolute godsend, the mechanism was a pig to throw. Issue now is with the 701 being long term resident there are only 2 sidings where trains can be berthed and cleaned overnight (cleaners aren't permitted onto the up goods loop).

 

[Elorith]

On South Eastern suburban services the 707s are fully DOO just like the emus they have replaced which have never had gangway between the the units.
These older units started DOO services on South Eastern 30 years ago.
Guards only work trains on the country side of Sevenoaks & Rainham or Gillingham. And even then the drivers release the doors everywhere on every single South Eastern electric train.

I don't think I see the point you were trying to make here, assuming you were? Not trying to be hostile or anything, just curious.

 

[TEW]

They'll be no gangways. My guess too is that they'll be operated similarly to the 707s where the guard has to work from the rear unit so that there's a member of staff in each part of the ttrain.

SWR do not require guards to operate from any particular part of the train. 701s will be the same, except for the handful of stations too short to accommodate a single 5 car unit. If a 2x5-car calls at one of those stations the guard will be required to be in the front unit.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I don't think I see the point you were trying to make here, assuming you were? Not trying to be hostile or anything, just curious.

I think it is the irony that the 707s can work DOO (Driver Only Operation) but SWT/SWR never used it whereas when each of the 707s transfer to SET (South Eastern) they are using DOO. Now on SET DOO is old hat (30 years ?) . So in an ideal world these suburban 701s would not be needing a guard on SWR.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder this is a traction and rolling stock discussion to discuss class 701 updates please.

New threads can be created to discuss any other topic (if there isn't one already).

Anything of a speculative nature must be posted in the appropriate forum section please; this thread is for actual updates only.

 

[pompeyfan]

BBC news are running the following article.

First of £1bn trains to run in 2023, South Western Railway says

The high-capacity Arterio trains would enter service with South Western Railway three years late.

www.bbc.co.uk

Having read it I can’t help but think it’s intentionally vague!

First of £1bn trains to run in 2023, South Western Railway says​

• • Published
    14 minutes ago

Share

Image caption,
The new Arterio train fleet had been due to enter service in 2019
The first of a new £1bn fleet of trains will enter service in 2023 - three years later than planned, a rail firm has said.
The high-capacity Arterio trains were due to run from December 2019 on South Western Railway (SWR) routes to Reading and Windsor in Berkshire.
SWR previously said the delay was due to the impact of Covid-19. However, there have also been reports of faults.
The rail operator has accepted 24 of 90 trains from manufacturer Alstom.

Image caption,
The trains are designed to hold more passengers, South Western Railway said
The transfer of the first Class 701 units emerged through a Freedom of Information (FoI) request by passenger Rich Williams, which has been seen by the BBC.
The Department for Transport (DfT) replied: "Work continues with Alstom for a pre-passenger service software update... in order to bring those units to entry into service standard.
"Mainline driver training is scheduled to commence in the new year."

IMAGE SOURCE, PA MEDIA
Image caption,
The firm said the trains would be introduced as early as possible in the New Year
The fleet of 750 Derby-built carriages has faced numerous software faults which have still not been fully resolved, BBC South transport correspondent Paul Clifton said.
Problems with door obstacle detectors have prevented the trains from being accepted for driver training, according to the train drivers' union ASLEF.
Other reported issues have included the coupling process, faulty windscreen wipers and cab doors that were difficult to open.
SWR previously said the trains would carry more people and reduce journey times on routes in Berkshire and Surrey.
It has now confirmed they will enter service "as early in the New Year as possible".
The firm's national rail contract is due to expire on 28 May 2023, with the possibility of an extension of up to two years.
Alstom said it had acquired the trains' previous manufacturer Bombardier at the end of 2020, long after the project's due completion date.
A spokesman said: "Since then Alstom has delivered the same model of train to other customers including the Elizabeth Line which are operating very successfully."

 

[Invincible]

Software updates are now complete for the current 701 fleet and (touch wood) issues have been sorted. Now awaiting driver training, so hopefully not too long to go now before they're introduced into service.

From the report and FOI request
"Work continues with Alstom for a pre-passenger service software update... in order to bring those units to entry into service standard"
"Mainline driver training is scheduled to commence in the new year."
So presumably the latest software release has sorted problems to allow training for entry into service?

 

[norbitonflyer]

BBC news are running the following article.

First of £1bn trains to run in 2023, South Western Railway says

The high-capacity Arterio trains would enter service with South Western Railway three years late.

www.bbc.co.uk

Having read it I can’t help but think it’s intentionally vague!

That's hardly news! If they were going to enter service in 2022, or not until 2024, that would be a surprise.

So somewhere between three and 55 weeks time - or in engineering terms, 39 weeks +/- 92%

 

[Elorith]

Is this not pretty much exactly what they said this time last year? And the year before that?