Why are the two dates, May and December, chosen for timetable changes?

[Starmill]

It is a ludicrous system. If you assume a situation whereby all we had to do was get Eurostar services in the system for the year-round and then the seasonal ones (marked up Q if needed), we could quite rightly move to a situation where we did switch to a Summer timetable at Easter and back again to "Winter" at the end of September. That way, our "Summer" trains such as stuff to Paignton, or Skegness, or wherever else would all just run during a short period of 5 months.

Surely this makes absolutely no difference though?

If we wanted our domestic timetable could be completely torn up and rewritten at the end of every period, as long as it allowed for international trains to use their rights. Same with every country in Europe.

That would obviously be silly because there would be no benefits and it would use up vast planning resources which we don't have, but there's absolutely nothing to stop us from doing that should we wish...

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Falling in line with mainland Europe is not necessary for the UK, because the one train service that does connect the two - Eurostar - doesn't follow it anyway!

I think that you're misunderstanding here. Eurostar do use it - they have to because that's how their rights on LGV Nord and elsewhere are defined, and will continue to be defined regardless of what we do.

They may however change their timetable at other times, providing this is allows for the rights of other operators. This is true for all operators. Why do you think that we have so many summer changes in this country? The timetable structure doesn't prevent them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2022 ==

This was the sort of requirement that gave the EU a bad name. Why should it matter if a rail system on a different land mass to most of the rest of Europe hs different timetable changeover dates?

It's not a requirement otherwise than for international trains. It's a choice to align with the single Principle Change Date. It's therefore only going to result in a "bad name" among people who don't understand it...

We can have a Subsidiary Change Date or Dates whenever we want and always have been able to, providing the rights of international trains are respected by the change.

 

[30907]

It’s the French ski season it aligns with, not the school holidays.

The season opens for most resorts on the second weekend of December, and that when the extra trains to Bourg St Maurice, Grenoble etc start running.

That justifies changing in December rather than January or February (and of course the ski season is not peculiarly French....).

BTW SNCF have never bothered with the secondary June change, preferring the end of the month when summer holidays start.

 

[317 forever]

So, the gaps between timetable change gaps are 5 months and 7 months. The same thing also happens with the changes between Greenwich Mean Time and British Summer Time, being in March and October, thus 5 or 7 months apart.

Changing the rail timetables in November would not only create 6 month intervals between changes (assuming the May date remains), but also make the winter change well away from Christmas.

 

[306024]

Changing the rail timetables in November would not only create 6 month intervals between changes (assuming the May date remains), but also make the winter change well away from Christmas.

November is in the middle of leaf-fall season, where many operators change their timetable temporarily. You wouldn’t want that in two different timetable periods.

 

[Man_with_beard]

That implied you require even six month timetables. May/September is likely better for high summer (peak demand) and 'normal', making it easier to plan according to predicted demand.

Do the railways even have extra services in Summer anywhere? I don't see any on routes in and out of London to handle summer demand. There is the odd Cross Country service extension to Newquay or Paignton on a Saturday (not been seen since before covid) but I don't think its enough to warrant a timetable change in the older way.

 

[30907]

Do the railways even have extra services in Summer anywhere? I don't see any on routes in and out of London to handle summer demand. There is the odd Cross Country service extension to Newquay or Paignton on a Saturday (not been seen since before covid) but I don't think its enough to warrant a timetable change in the older way.

Not many, which is why the traditional major change in June or May isn't terribly significant.
The GWR route to the SW on Saturdays is/was one, as is Scarborough.
But the season is longer or shorter now - Easter to October or school summer holidays only - and the trains are planned well in advance anyway.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Still baffles me why these couldn't be period-dated extras, as happens with many summer services (indeed I suspect these extra trains only run for maybe 2 or 3 months?).

Many of the extras are indeed short dated. The French education system, which is of course highly centralised in its administration, divides the country into a number of regions each having its own designated ski holiday. It's a bit like a French version of northern English Wakes weeks. During each regional ski peak there will be extras to many of the major ski resorts with the resources then being redeployed to the next region for that region's peak largely running to the same resorts but with different origins. And TGV heavy maintenance is scheduled to provide maximum fleet availability for the ski season rather than the summer.

 

[whoosh]

"To fit in with Europe." And then the only operator that actually runs from here to mainland Europe started running their trains to Amsterdam in:

May?
No.

December then?
No.

Oh!

Yes that's right, neither. "To fit in with Europe," they started in April. Obviously.

 

[daodao]

"To fit in with Europe."

Great Britain (GB) is not physically part of Europe and outwith the EU and its diktats since Brexit. The Channel Tunnel railway services are organisationally separate from other rail services in GB. Would not the most appropriate times to change timetables be to coincide with the change of clocks between BST and GMT, thus having different versions for summer and winter reflecting variations in leisure traffic? I accept that NIR might have to align with the EU due to the Enterprise service, although this does not vary between seasons.

 

[zwk500]

"To fit in with Europe." And then the only operator that actually runs from here to mainland Europe ...
Yes that's right, neither. "To fit in with Europe," they started in April. Obviously.

starting a new service is different to the regular timetable change, as the paths will have been in the timetable ready for use while other things like depots or stations are made ready.

Great Britain (GB) is not physically part of Europe and outwith the EU and its diktats since Brexit. The Channel Tunnel railway services are organisationally separate from other rail services in GB. Would not the most appropriate times to change timetables be to coincide with the change of clocks between BST and GMT, thus having different versions for summer and winter reflecting variations in leisure traffic? I accept that NIR might have to align with the EU due to the Enterprise service, although this does not vary between seasons.

GB has more reason to align with the EU than Ireland, as we do have a physical connection to the mainland rail network.
There is nothing stopping the UK running limited dates trains other than planning capacity. So if we wanted to we could easily run May-september only trains every year.
And 'diktats' betrays your prejudices. The UK had full rights to vote on EU rules, and if you are complaining about being outvoted in a community of 27 occassionally (the UK actually had quite a lot of influence as the biggest economy) I just hope you've never told somebody who voted remain to 'just get over it'.

 

[Revilo]

starting a new service is different to the regular timetable change, as the paths will have been in the timetable ready for use while other things like depots or stations are made ready.

GB has more reason to align with the EU than Ireland, as we do have a physical connection to the mainland rail network.
There is nothing stopping the UK running limited dates trains other than planning capacity. So if we wanted to we could easily run May-september only trains every year.
And 'diktats' betrays your prejudices. The UK had full rights to vote on EU rules, and if you are complaining about being outvoted in a community of 27 occassionally (the UK actually had quite a lot of influence as the biggest economy) I just hope you've never told somebody who voted remain to 'just get over it'.

Ah yes, those ‘full rights’ where we could be outvoted by qualified majority voting. We weren’t the biggest economy either. There’s no reason now to align with the EU’s nonsensical timetable dates.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Great Britain (GB) is not physically part of Europe and outwith the EU and its diktats since Brexit. The Channel Tunnel railway services are organisationally separate from other rail services in GB. Would not the most appropriate times to change timetables be to coincide with the change of clocks between BST and GMT, thus having different versions for summer and winter reflecting variations in leisure traffic? I accept that NIR might have to align with the EU due to the Enterprise service, although this does not vary between seasons.

Yes. The summer/winter split made a lot of sense because demand does vary a bit between the two. December has never made sense for the UK since day one, and has resulted in too many "dated trains" and some summer enhancements just being dropped entirely.

(One gain is the Conwy Valley having a Sunday service all year, that said)

 

[zwk500]

Ah yes, those ‘full rights’ where we could be outvoted by qualified majority voting.

That's what happens in a majority. People who are mad at the UK being overruled 1-27 yet tell people who got overruled 48-52 to get over it are slightly annoying.

We weren’t the biggest economy either.

2nd biggest then, still influential

There’s no reason now to align with the EU’s nonsensical timetable dates.

Apart from Eurostar driving freight paths through Tonbridge, impacting on Thameslink paths that get onto the MML, ECML, London Bridge etc. Also driving SE paths around the Kent Coast that then interact with cross-boundary freight from Hoo Junction, etc.
Are the dates optimal for the UK? Probably not. But there are reasons to align, even if they are now quite weak.

Personally, I'd say the UK should switch to a late September/early October principal timetable change, with late April/early May subsidiary change although could understand a desire for a 6-month split rather than 7/5.

 

[CW2]

Historically, there has always been a need for neighbouring transport administrations to co-ordinate their timetables, whether it be international rail or shipping. Being an (ever more) insular railway off the west coast of Europe tends to give us the view that whatever "we" want to do is automatically "right". Timetabling international services (rail and ferry) across Europe is co-ordinated by Forum Train Europe.
https://www.forumtraineurope.eu/home/
FTE is a Swiss based pan-European organisation which co-ordinates the timetabling activities of most European railways. Historically, the Czech railways had a strong role in supporting the freight train timetabling conferences.
To answer the original question of this thread, the move to a December timetable change date came about as a result of international discussions at FTE (and its predecessor organisation).
At the time of the opening of the Channel Tunnel there was a fair amount of intermodal and wagonload freight going back and forth (building on the market already established by the Dover - Dunkerque train ferry services), in addition to the Eurostar services. The international freight traffic ran from terminals across the country. So at that time it was vital that timetables should be properly co-ordinated and entirely in step with the rest of Europe.

In the current situation, with Eurostar being a shadow of its former self, and freight traffic having dwindled to negligible levels, there is an argument that we don't need to be shackled to the European norms any more. Where I struggle with this is that I don't see any / many advantages from trying to "do our own thing" when it comes to timetable change dates.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the current situation, with Eurostar being a shadow of its former self, and freight traffic having dwindled to negligible levels, there is an argument that we don't need to be shackled to the European norms any more. Where I struggle with this is that I don't see any / many advantages from trying to "do our own thing" when it comes to timetable change dates.

The big advantage is that on many UK routes demand in summer is markedly different from demand in winter. That's why having May-September as a separate timetable period made sense.

 

[Trainbike46]

How many ski extras are there though? And how many of them run all the way through until May? If this really is the reason, it's a bonkers one.

Many countries don't have a May timetable change, and only change there timetables once a year, on the European date of the sunday after the second saturday of december

The Netherlands for example has the main timetable change in December, and then more or less monthly updates for minor changes (such as the start/end of seasonal extra trains, not that there are that many there)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2022 ==

Ah yes, those ‘full rights’ where we could be outvoted by qualified majority voting. We weren’t the biggest economy either. There’s no reason now to align with the EU’s nonsensical timetable dates.

There absolutely is, because both Eurostar and freight services to the tunnel need to have the timetable at both sides change on the same date.

As others have pointed out, there is nothing stopping the UK from changing timetables at other points (and in fact, the May timetable change is exactly that; the UK changing its timetable at a point different from the EU), however, it is essential that the UK timetables change in December as well

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2022 ==

The big advantage is that on many UK routes demand in summer is markedly different from demand in winter. That's why having May-September as a separate timetable period made sense.

While that is fair, there are significant advantagse from having an annual timetable change moment that lines up with europe; hence the universal date in December

 

[Bletchleyite]

While that is fair, there are significant advantage from having annual timetable change moment that lines up with europe; hence the universal date in December

Tail wagging the dog there. The Tunnel is relevant to a tiny amount of UK railway operations.

 

[Trainbike46]

Tail wagging the dog there. The Tunnel is relevant to a tiny amount of UK railway operations.

But through freights impact services on many lines, and require either coordinated changes or sufficient places for them to wait around for their slots somewhere.
And even though many operations aren't affected by the timetable change directly, because of cascaded changes there might still be a need for changing them, even ignoring freights completely. For example, changing eurostar -> changing SE HS1 -> changing SE -> changing Thameslink -> changing EMR, etc.

And as stated, nothing is stopping the UK from having a separate summer timetable. You could for example start the summer timetable in May, and then in September revert back to the timetable that existed December-May until December, then do the "new" winter timetable in December without needing too much extra planning resources (or if there were enough planning resources, we could introduce a third timetable change in September).

Making railway services line up with each other, whether for track capacity reasons or to give sensible conncections is certainly not the tail wagging the dog

 

[Bletchleyite]

Making railway services line up with each other, whether for track capacity reasons or to give sensible conncections is certainly not the tail wagging the dog

No, but basing it all on a connection that is a tiny minority of UK rail use - both freight and passenger - is the wrong way to do it. If freight has to hang around for a bit, it should hang around, most of it is nowhere near as time-sensitive as passenger.

If anything it should all be based round the WCML and ECML passenger services, though I seem to recall the base of the Swiss Takt is some fairly obscure line that can't for some reason run any way other than the way it does (does anyone recall which one?)

 

[Trainbike46]

No, but basing it all on a connection that is a tiny minority of UK rail use - both freight and passenger - is the wrong way to do it. If freight has to hang around for a bit, it should hang around, most of it is nowhere near as time-sensitive as passenger.

That does require having enough space to let the freights hang around, which may or may not exist in Kent (I genuinely don't know)

If anything it should all be based round the WCML and ECML passenger services, though I seem to recall the base of the Swiss Takt is some fairly obscure line that can't for some reason run any way other than the way it does (does anyone recall which one?)

In the Netherlands its mostly based around connections at Zwolle station, I don't know about Switzerland. But usually Takt does tend to build around whatever is the most restricted in terms of times, which usually ends up being a single track branch line, somewhere.

For the UK I would suggest basing the timetable around connections at either Birmingham New Street or Crewe would make the most sense.

However, none of that determines when timetables should change. If Southeastern has to change together with the rest of europe (and it does, via eurostar) and southeastern influences when other services can run (and it does, from where its services share track with GTR services) then the UK should have a new timetable at the same time as the rest of Europe, and therefore needs the December timetable change. Extra timetable changes can be added, whether in May, September or whatever other time of the year.

 

[zwk500]

That does require having enough space to let the freights hang around, which may or may not exist in Kent (I genuinely don't know)

There's some space, but not a lot, at Dollands Moor and some of the loops put in for the Channel Tunnel project. If we can get the freights through to Barking or even Wembley then you have a lot more room to play around.

For the UK I would suggest basing the timetable around connections at either Birmingham New Street or Crewe would make the most sense.

The UK's base would probably need to be Leamington Spa to Coventry, as the critical freight at XC single-track link on core routes.

 

[30907]

Timetabling international services (rail and ferry) across Europe is co-ordinated by Forum Train Europe. https://www.forumtraineurope.eu/home/
FTE is a Swiss based pan-European organisation which co-ordinates the timetabling activities of most European railways. Historically, the Czech railways had a strong role in supporting the freight train timetabling conferences.
To answer the original question of this thread, the move to a December timetable change date came about as a result of international discussions at FTE (and its predecessor organisation).

Thanks for confirming what I always assumed (and stated upthread) - so the EU directive simply stated what the FTE had already agreed (an agreement covering non-EU countries anyway).

The big advantage is that on many UK routes demand in summer is markedly different from demand in winter. That's why having May-September as a separate timetable period made sense.

But service levels haven't reflected this marked difference for years. Apart from Table 135 on Saturdays, I can't think of a significant "summer service" anywhere.
In fact, rather less than in France, Germany, Poland....

 

[Class 170101]

The French ski season is mentioned but overall for Europe just like for the UK would a change October and April fit in better with leisure travel patterns.

Regardless now IMO time for the UK to change in October and late March or April.

If I was choosing the change dates it would be around the beginning of April and again around the end of October (Half Term) but leaf fall starting at the beginning of October is a bit of a pain so it might have to be the beginning of October instead.

 

[30907]

If I was choosing the change dates it would be around the beginning of April

So either just before or just after Easter? Not ideal, even though the clocks and the airlines change.

 

[Basil Jet]

If I was choosing the change dates it would be around the beginning of April and again around the end of October (Half Term) but leaf fall starting at the beginning of October is a bit of a pain so it might have to be the beginning of October instead.

Do any lines other than the line through Amersham have leaf-fall timetables?

 

[Bald Rick]

Do any lines other than the line through Amersham have leaf-fall timetables?

Yes, lots.

 

[nw1]

It was to fall in line with mainland Europe. I agree it makes very little sense - the old summer/winter split with summer between May and September-October was more practical. Falling in line with mainland Europe is not necessary for the UK, because the one train service that does connect the two - Eurostar - doesn't follow it anyway!

Indeed at one point there was only one timetable change a year, which varied from Monday May 11 to Monday May 17 (so the Monday following the second Friday in May, slightly bizarrely). There was then an October supplement.

Not sure exactly when it changed to late May and December, I have the feeling it may have been 1993 as I have a vague memory of standing on Woking station in early June with the new timetable only just out. I am fairly sure that in 1997 the timetable change occurred as late as June 1.

Even when the separate October timetable started, around the late 80s, most of the really big changes remained in May, with only tweaks in October. Certainly I went through a phase of buying the all-lines BR timetable around then, and only ever got the May one - didn't bother with the October one.

 

[Magdalia]

Indeed at one point there was only one timetable change a year, which varied from Monday May 11 to Monday May 17 (so the Monday following the second Friday in May, slightly bizarrely). There was then an October supplement.

From 1965 to 1985 there was no separate summer timetable, though there were some changes made by issuing timetable supplements.

From 1968 the annual change date was the first Monday in May, but this was messed up when Mayday Bank Holiday was introduced. The start date was moved back to sit between the two May Bank Holidays.

Separate summer and winter timetables were reintroduced in 1986 with summer running from mid May to end September/start October. This gave a summer timetable of 20 weeks.

Not sure exactly when it changed to late May and December, I have the feeling it may have been 1993

Summer 1993 timetable started on Monday 17 May.

Summer 1994 timetable started on Sunday 29 May. I think this is the first to start on Sunday not Monday.

But both of those finished in September not December. I stopped buying the all line timetable after summer 1995, which was 28 May to 23 September.

 

[etr221]

Looking on the FTE website (link given above) they have been celebrating their 150th anniversary, with downloadable booklet, etc.

While it reveals that the decision to change the (European) timetable change date from the end of May ("midnight (2400) on last Saturday in May") to around change of year (initially there was debate between mid December (SNCF preference) and mid (DB) or late (FS) January) was made made in 1999, to be effective in 2002, it doesn't explain why... The decision made was to see how mid-December (Midnight of 2nd Saturday) went (and - if experience sugested - move to January), with a secondary date for 'after winter' changes (of midnight 2nd Saturday in June)

 

[Peterthegreat]

Looking on the FTE website (link given above) they have been celebrating their 150th anniversary, with downloadable booklet, etc.

While it reveals that the decision to change the (European) timetable change date from the end of May ("midnight (2400) on last Saturday in May") to around change of year (initially there was debate between mid December (SNCF preference) and mid (DB) or late (FS) January) was made made in 1999, to be effective in 2002, it doesn't explain why... The decision made was to see how mid-December (Midnight of 2nd Saturday) went (and - if experience sugested - move to January), with a secondary date for 'after winter' changes (of midnight 2nd Saturday in June)

I will reveal the rationale for the change later today or tomorrow.