GWR Class 769 information. (Units no longer with GWR - Off Lease March 23)

[Nicholas Lewis]

Locally Network Rail and GTR keep telling us that there is no power capacity for 8/12 coach trains to Reigate without a very expensive upgrade to the power system.

Redhill to Reigate is fed through a feeder hut at Redhill station which used to limit it to 8 car slam door units and i recollect in notch 2 so definitely won't get a 12 car up there irrespective of platform length issues. Not sure it needs a mega expensive upgrade unless you were going to future proof the line for continuing electrification onto Guildford (which makes sense) but nothing comes cheap in NR.

Also, that the slow lines from Redhill to Gatwick have no spare power capacity for extra trains.

The Slow lines can take as many trains as the Fast lines. Only two weekends ago when the Fasts were blocked it happily delivered 15 electric trains per hour each way. All the TPH's along this stretch were upgraded to substations a decade ago and the HV 33kV distribution systems was reinforced from Three Bridges Grid so a single 769 per hour would have hardly been noticed.

I suspect it’s just an excuse but it would mean that an upgrade might be needed somewhere to run battery trains. Hope not as I agree that North Downs is perfect for Battery trains otherwise.

One of the advantage of battery trains is when regenerating you have a ready made load in the battery to absorb the energy which reduces the amount of energy that needs to be provided from the traction system. There is plenty of opportunity to do that when the train isn't drawing traction power so the overall maximum power demand of the train wouldn't change. So battery trains will present additional demand on the electrification system but again the NDL 769's wouldn't have broken the system but despite being told decarbonisation is important it clearly isn't that important. Mind you looks like the leasing charges for the 769's weren't going to be cheap if by dropping them they can find most of the DfT savings needed.

 

[Geeves]

There's not a day goes by at Northern where one of them isn't dead so I can't see them being welcomed here but it wouldn't surprise me to see them in convoy to Allerton

 

[infobleep]

As predicted, now confirmed cancelled from GWR on another forum:

"As it's now been announced on our Management briefing, I can confirm that the DfT have cancelled the lease for the 19 class 769/9 units as of April 23. The units will return to Porterbrook."

So will this be the end of the idea of 2 trains an hour to Gatwick Airport I wonder? Is there the demand for services running to Gatwick Airport twice an hour any more?

Were the 769s the only thing that would have enabled this?

 

[JonathanH]

Were the 769s the only thing that would have enabled this?

The order for 19 769s replacing 16 165s appears to have been fundamental to the original 3tph timetable plan on the North Downs Line.

While there was some discussion about extending the Redhill stopping services to Gatwick Airport once 3tph was dead, there has since been a further tightening of Turbo diagrams working off Reading so I suspect 2tph to Gatwick Airport is dead as well.

 

[geoffk]

The withdrawal of the 769s by GWR will be additional to the phasing out of the Castle HST sets by December 2023. The former are not currently part of the operational fleet so do not need replacement as such, but retention of 165s in the Reading area will delay their redeployment in the south-west. This will mean continued reliance on the fleet of 150s and regular short-forming, particularly of the Exmouth - Paignton service. Also the frequency improvements on the North Downs line referred to by JonathanH are likely to be cancelled. It's been discussed elsewhere that the Castle sets will be replaced by 5-car IETs released by the cancellation of the fast Bristol service. None of this suggests service cuts in the near future but what further savings will GWR be expected to make?

 

[Annetts key]

None of this suggests service cuts in the near future but what further savings will GWR be expected to make?

There may not be anymore immediate planned service cuts, but due to the continuing unreliability of the 165 and 166 Turbos, there will continue to be some short formed and last minute cancellations. And the 150 sprinters and 158s are not exactly newish units anymore. But this is all rather off topic for this topic, so I will leave it there.

 

[geoffk]

There may not be anymore immediate planned service cuts, but due to the continuing unreliability of the 165 and 166 Turbos, there will continue to be some short formed and last minute cancellations. And the 150 sprinters and 158s are not exactly newish units anymore. But this is all rather off topic for this topic, so I will leave it there.

Agreed!

 

[infobleep]

The order for 19 769s replacing 16 165s appears to have been fundamental to the original 3tph timetable plan on the North Downs Line.

While there was some discussion about extending the Redhill stopping services to Gatwick Airport once 3tph was dead, there has since been a further tightening of Turbo diagrams working off Reading so I suspect 2tph to Gatwick Airport is dead as well.

That is a shame. Perhaps they can find a way of reworking the timetable to make improvements to the service then. For example stopping services not waiting at Guildford.

For selfish reasons I preferred a fast train x10 past the hour to Gatwixk Airpprt.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

That is a shame. Perhaps they can find a way of reworking the timetable to make improvements to the service then. For example stopping services not waiting at Guildford.

For selfish reasons I preferred a fast train x10 past the hour to Gatwixk Airpprt.

Sadly with a whole host of other DfT led changes nationally any immediate recast of the North Downs is likely to be quite low down the importance/delivery order.

 

[infobleep]

Sadly with a whole host of other DfT led changes nationally any immediate recast of the North Downs is likely to be quite low down the importance/delivery order.

Well they managed to do SE and Southern changes and surely each TOC has their own planning teams.

I appreciate they have been very stretched lately but once that isn't the case, surely they would have time, unless there is a desire to remove some of them from post, to save money, which would be very silly.

 

[JonathanH]

For selfish reasons I preferred a fast train x10 past the hour to Gatwixk Airpprt.

I think everyone preferred the long standing timetable with the faster service on that side of the hour.

 

[Chester1]

Budget cuts - the savings that the DfT want off the TOCs budgets for 2023/4 are eye watering. They are looking for opportunities to bin stock at lease end dates and the GWR 769 were an easy hit.

If it wasn’t for these cuts, GWR would have probably been told to soldier on with them. As it is, they have now gone some way to meeting their 2023/4 cuts target.

Do you know why GWR has announced cuts but other ToCs haven't yet?

Losing Castles and 769s is getting off lightly. Very old trains and an unreliable upgrade of fairly old trains.

 

[Towers]

Do you know why GWR has announced cuts but other ToCs haven't yet?

Losing Castles and 769s is getting off lightly. Very old trains and an unreliable upgrade of fairly old trains.

It'll likely be a case of what each TOC is able to cut, and how quickly and easily. The 769s have their lease due for renewal fairly soon and haven't yet entered service, so it would be pragmatic to examine that as an option, for example. Other TOCs will find different solutions from their differing circumstances, some probably more quickly than others.

 

[Snow1964]

It'll likely be a case of what each TOC is able to cut, and how quickly and easily. The 769s have their lease due for renewal fairly soon and haven't yet entered service, so it would be pragmatic to examine that as an option, for example. Other TOCs will find different solutions from their differing circumstances, some probably more quickly than others.

GWR have also recently signed off an extension to 2028 with DfT, so possibly with pending extension there was more focus on agreeing things than some other franchises which were not due to expire in a few months.

But the GWR changes are more of the leaked out variety, than a press release and website update detailing the forthcoming changes. So could be other TOCs are less leaky than a sieve with their upcoming changes, they could have quicker cuts but not yet general knowledge.

 

[Towers]

GWR have also recently signed off an extension to 2028 with DfT, so possibly with pending extension there was more focus on agreeing things than some other franchises which were not due to expire in a few months.

But the GWR changes are more of the leaked out variety, than a press release and website update detailing the forthcoming changes. So could be other TOCs are less leaky than a sieve with their upcoming changes, they could have quicker cuts but not yet general knowledge.

Obviously not all TOCs will have the 'luxury', as it were, of a couple of fleets being ripe for the axe. And of course not all will be able to cope with the loss of stock, although looming service cuts might assist with that if they do indeed come to fruition. If it isn't trains then it'll have to be something else of course, but that's for another thread!

 

[Energy]

But the GWR changes are more of the leaked out variety, than a press release and website update detailing the forthcoming changes. So could be other TOCs are less leaky than a sieve with their upcoming changes, they could have quicker cuts but not yet general knowledge.

I don't think GWR were in a rush to tell everyone about the class 769s which will never enter service at GWR. I wouldn't really count it as being leaked out, the NRC documents are public.

Obviously not all TOCs will have the 'luxury', as it were, of a couple of fleets being ripe for the axe. And of course not all will be able to cope with the loss of stock, although looming service cuts might assist with that if they do indeed come to fruition. If it isn't trains then it'll have to be something else of course, but that's for another thread!

Indeed, Chiltern will have it much harder.

 

[infobleep]

I think everyone preferred the long standing timetable with the faster service on that side of the hour.

Can we blame the DfT and Rail minister who overseas it, if it doesn't return or is that too simplistic, along the lines of a politicians saying something simple for political gain?

 

[Clarence Yard]

Where the DfT have made the easier fleet decisions, they will tend to leak out as they are made but the service/line cuts will take longer to be decided. Some of those, if the DfT wish to follow that course, will need approval from No 10.

The fares increase in 2023 will also be interesting.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Can we blame the DfT and Rail minister who overseas it, if it doesn't return or is that too simplistic, along the lines of a politicians saying something simple for political gain?

Merriman is supposed to be a friend of the railways so hopefully he will fight it and make clear there is a risk of just exacerbating losses by reducing service levels further

 

[lumitumey12345]

Any guesses on where the GWR 769s will end up? preferably give them to southern to use them on the Uckfield and Marshlink lines to replace the class 171 units so they can go to other operators like EMR. Maybe send them to LNWR temporarily to cover for the Marston Vale line.

 

[superalbs]

Any guesses on where the GWR 769s will end up? preferably give them to southern to use them on the Uckfield and Marshlink lines to replace the class 171 units so they can go to other operators like EMR. Maybe send them to LNWR temporarily to cover for the Marston Vale line.

I seem to recall that 319s couldn't go down one of those lines due to clearance issues.

 

[LowLevel]

Any guesses on where the GWR 769s will end up? preferably give them to southern to use them on the Uckfield and Marshlink lines to replace the class 171 units so they can go to other operators like EMR. Maybe send them to LNWR temporarily to cover for the Marston Vale line.

In a siding, and then a scrapyard an indeterminate period afterwards, I would wager.

 

[Rich1974]

By doing that wouldn't they just be shifting the problems with these else where, can't see anyone wanting them if they're no good for us at GWR.

 

[jackot]

preferably give them to southern to use them on the Uckfield and Marshlink lines to replace the class 171 units so they can go to other operators like EMR. Maybe send them to LNWR temporarily to cover for the Marston Vale line.

If GWR can’t get them working well enough to enter service, I can’t see why Southern, EMR or LNWR could, or would want to waste money trying.

 

[lumitumey12345]

Thats fair enough to be honest, such a waste of units.

 

[zwk500]

Any guesses on where the GWR 769s will end up? preferably give them to southern to use them on the Uckfield and Marshlink lines to replace the class 171 units so they can go to other operators like EMR. Maybe send them to LNWR temporarily to cover for the Marston Vale line.

They definitely won't be on the Uckfield line, as they currently have 10x23m trains, which the 769s can't match and if 319 bodyshells are based on the Mark 3 there may be clearance issues at Oxted Tunnel. Going to Marshlink would be theoretically possible but then the maintenance becomes an issues - at least Turbostar share some commonality with Electrostar units and both are Bombardier made. But you'd have to resolve the driver acceptance issues.
Marston Vale also isn't possible, for reasons explored in the Marston Vale thread.

 

[jackot]

Thats fair enough to be honest, such a waste of units.

It’s a real shame it didn’t work out, but there are obviously serious flaws with them. Even if the program has been stopped now simply because of cost cutting, over 2 years of testing has been inconclusive and never resulted in them entering service. The power packs and various newer parts might be reused in other applications but the rest of the train will go to scrap I would imagine.

 

[lumitumey12345]

There hasn't been any major news on the fate of the units once they return to the leasing company so I guess we will have to wait and see.

 

[zwk500]

It’s a real shame it didn’t work out, but there are obviously serious flaws with them. Even if the program has been stopped now simply because of cost cutting, over 2 years of testing has been inconclusive and never resulted in them entering service. The power packs and various newer parts might be reused in other applications but the rest of the train will go to scrap I would imagine.

Tbh I could see the lease not being renewed even if there wasn't the financial straightjacket in place. It had got well past the good money after bad point, and clearly wasn't any closer to a resolution with the drivers.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It’s a real shame it didn’t work out, but there are obviously serious flaws with them. Even if the program has been stopped now simply because of cost cutting, over 2 years of testing has been inconclusive and never resulted in them entering service. The power packs and various newer parts might be reused in other applications but the rest of the train will go to scrap I would imagine.

If they had serious flaws they wouldn't have been allowed out for testing. The three weekly training runs Reading to Redhill/Gatwick have largely run without issue. Its been reported on here that ASLEF weren't happy with cab layout although I believe that was rectified.

Given the choice between cutting operational stick and services GWR have made a sensible decision to protect the wider network.