Transpennine woes and a moan...

[HSTEd]

Does seem daft why TPE have to use their basically inter-city trains to stop at Marsden/Greenfield etc when Northern could do the job perfectly well? In fact, if Northern had the stock and staff available, that could free up a unit/staff to allow TPE to plug their gaps a bit.

It would likely cause their carefully tuned timetable to fall to pieces.

The TPE train would just have to wait somewhere for the time the stop takes to ensure they can slot into their arrival path at the next major station.

This is what happens when you run such a highly optimised timetable.

 

[nr758123]

Does seem daft why TPE have to use their basically inter-city trains to stop at Marsden/Greenfield etc when Northern could do the job perfectly well? In fact, if Northern had the stock and staff available, that could free up a unit/staff to allow TPE to plug their gaps a bit.

At the time the stopping service was transferred to TPE, Northern didn't have anything which could match the timings of a class 185. I don't know whether or not that is still the case.

 

[Eeveevolve]

At the time the stopping service was transferred to TPE, Northern didn't have anything which could match the timings of a class 185. I don't know whether or not that is still the case.

A quick Wikipedia check, a Northern Class 195 can accelerate at 0.83 m/s(Squared) and a TPE 185 is 0.49 m/s(Squared) so the 195s accelerate 40% faster.

 

[D6130]

At the time the stopping service was transferred to TPE, Northern didn't have anything which could match the timings of a class 185. I don't know whether or not that is still the case.

I suspect that the 195s could equal - if not better - the performance of the 185s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does seem daft why TPE have to use their basically inter-city trains to stop at Marsden/Greenfield etc when Northern could do the job perfectly well? In fact, if Northern had the stock and staff available, that could free up a unit/staff to allow TPE to plug their gaps a bit.

TPE have units coming out of their ears. A ridiculous surplus. If they can't manage 6-car on all Class 185 services (bar the "Northern" stoppers that have to be 3s) then it's just gross incompetence.

 

[Msq71423]

Liverpool to Hull is awful

05:30 Man Vic - Hull CANCELLED
06:54 Liverpool – Hull CANCELLED
07:54 Liverpool - Hull Starts Man Vic
09:54 Liverpool – Hull CANCELLED
10:54 Liverpool – Hull CANCELLED
13:54 Liverpool - Hull Terminates Man Vic
14:54 Liverpool – Hull CANCELLED
15:54 Liverpool – Hull CANCELLED
16:54 Liverpool – Hull CANCELLED
17:54 Liverpool - Hull Terminates Leeds

06:55 Hull – Liverpool CANCELLED
07:55 Hull – Liverpool CANCELLED
12:03 Hull – Liverpool CANCELLED
13:03 Hull – Liverpool CANCELLED
14:03 Hull – Liverpool CANCELLED
18:04 Hull – Liverpool CANCELLED
19:03 Hull - Man Vic CANCELLED

Add to that the 1503 Hull - Liverpool.

I think what we are seeing from today are the effects of the new RMT overtime and RDW ban adding to the existing issues. Northern look to have been badly affected today also, much worse than usual, which I would assume is the RDW/Overtime ban. So with regards the new timetable we won't really know if it works or not yet until the 9th January, when the RMT strikes/overtime/RDW ban is lifted (assuming it doesn't get extended).

 

[Foxcover]

Incredibly TPE are still advertising days out on ITV X ….

 

[Llandudno]

Incredibly TPE are still advertising days out on ITV X ….

Perhaps Hotels.com are contributing towards the ad campaign so when people get stranded by TPE they need to find a hotel for the night…!

 

[BoroAndy]

A quick Wikipedia check, a Northern Class 195 can accelerate at 0.83 m/s(Squared) and a TPE 185 is 0.49 m/s(Squared) so the 195s accelerate 40% faster.

Interesting that 195s accelerate quicker, as the 185s are known to be over powered and high on diesel9 consumption. And.... Not relevant, but.... 195s feel cramped and uncomfortable compared to 185s and even 170s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting that 195s accelerate quicker, as the 185s are known to be over powered and high on diesel9 consumption.

185s have Sprinter style hydraulic transmissions, so at low speeds waste a load of that extra power on stirring the transmission oil, wasted as heat. 195s have mechanical gearboxes which are much more efficient at getting the power down to the rail at low speeds.

This does make some sense - 185s have powerful engines not for acceleration (which is barely better than any Sprinter) but rather to allow them to maintain high(ish) speeds on the steep Pennine routes.

And.... Not relevant, but.... 195s feel cramped and uncomfortable compared to 185s and even 170s.

Which is odd, because the 185 is both narrower (2.673m vs. 2.712m) and lower (3.710 vs 3.850m) than a 195. 185s are however a very square box with massive windows, which means they feel bigger, just like 444s do despite being the same dimensions. However I personally find 170s feel narrow and cramped, probably due to the very thick sidewalls and intruding window frame.

I suspect part of the 195 feeling small is its very dark colour scheme, with black seat backs, dark blue vehicle ends and mid-blue moquette. The identical (other than the gangway and seats pretty much) Class 197 feels much more spacious to me due to the lighter colours used.

Comfort...well, it depends what seats you like!

 

[Killingworth]

60 years ago when a rail service was totally withdrawn bus routes were supposed to compensate. It was rare for them to fully do so and many of those routes were cut back and then withdrawn. Life continued. Towns and villages adapted to the lack of public transport.

That's what's happening now in TPE territory. Their previously regular users are giving up in droves and becoming increasingly used to making alternative arrangements. Day by day a few more are making them permanent.

Passengers don't have the luxury of deciding who's to blame, TPE, DfT, the unions, H M Treasury. As far as they are concerned it's 'the railway' which doesn't work, so they'll not use it.

No matter how much we call for someone, anyone, everyone, to get a grip it's crystal clear that nobody has an adequate grip just now. The longer it's left the less there'll be to get a grip on!

80 cancellations currently showing for the rest of today and tomorrow!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

185s acceleration is fast enough to outperform Voyagers all the way up to 100mph, although voyagers have a smooth acceleration curve and a higher top end speed so will eventually catch up with and overtake a 185

 

[daodao]

I think what we are seeing from today are the effects of the new RMT overtime and RDW ban adding to the existing issues. Northern look to have been badly affected today also, much worse than usual, which I would assume is the RDW/Overtime ban. So with regards the new timetable we won't really know if it works or not yet until the 9th January, when the RMT strikes/overtime/RDW ban is lifted (assuming it doesn't get extended).

I make no comment on the current disputes, but surely it would be preferable if TPE and other TOCs planned slimmed-down timetables based on the premise of no rest day working or overtime required to run them. Trains could be lengthened where possible to minimise any reduction in capacity due to less frequent services. Rest day working and overtime should only be used temporarily if at all to cover unexpected gaps in the roster, e.g. due to excess levels of sickness. If the service continues to be unreliable with frequent unplanned cancellations, passengers (customers) will desert in droves and many will not return even if the service improves in the longer term.

 

[MarinerOne]

A Cleethorpes to Liverpool was terminated at Manchester "due to the planned train being replaced with a slower train"

Utter expletive

I was on the 0727 Cleethorpes to Liverpool Lime Street yesterday when we ended up sitting at Manchester Oxford Road for 32 minutes to wait for a driver turn up to take us to Liverpool. I felt for the exasperated train manager who kept announcing “I’m really sorry, but we’re going to have to wait here as we don’t have a driver for our train. The control room keep telling me that he’s in a taxi in the other side of Manchester, but I’ve got no idea when he’ll get here.”

I was just about to abandon ship and get out to pick up the East Midlands service to Liverpool, which was just about to arrive on platform three, but then the driver turned up and I stuck with it.

Realtime Trains | 0727 Cleethorpes to Liverpool Lime Street | 19/12/2022

Real-time train running information for 0727 departure from Cleethorpes to Liverpool Lime Street on 19/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[mike57]

Day by day a few more are making them permanent.

passengers (customers) will desert in droves

I am one of those.

I used to visit our office in the NW once a week using the train from Seamer, so a £60+ return fare even with 'old man' railcard discount, I have been working 'remotely' since 2016, pre covid I was working out of a Portakabin on a site near home, but it was just a desk and kit. When I first started the journey was fairly simple, 3hrs each way, one change at Manchester Oxford Road, Then came the 2018 meltdown, and cancellations and short running started, so I would miss a week now and then. Covid then proved I can lead the control systems engineering remotely using technology. When the journey was reliable I believe the face to face was beneficial, but given the current issues I cannot justify booking maybe 8-10 hours to travel as well as the fares, and getting home very late, the face to face is nice but the job still gets done. It was one of those journeys that started this thread.

We also used to visit friends that live near Stalybridge or they would visit us, using the train, now we meet up half way, and both drive, the last journey with my wife was one of those 'never again' moments.

Neither of us are particularly fond of driving, and the M62 with its smart motorway is one of the more unpleasant routes, so we will use the train if its reliable and comfortable. Leisure travel is usually first class, using advance tickets where possible.

Looking back to 2017, my TPE spend was around £2500 as well as some leisure travel, 2022 its around £300 and no leisure travel, and around a third of that has come back in delay repay.

All the participants in the current battles within the industry need realise that if it carries on there will nothing to argue over, and the TOCs need to realise if they keep making bad decisions there wont be a railway, the DfT will just wash their hands and say to the treasury 'there you are, just saved you a huge amount of money'

As I have said in another thread I would not want to be dependant on the railways for employment or flow down business at the moment, its not just the direct workforce, its all the other suppliers that make their living from the rail network.

 

[Killingworth]

I am one of those.

I used to visit our office in the NW once a week using the train from Seamer, so a £60+ return fare even with 'old man' railcard discount, I have been working 'remotely' since 2016, pre covid I was working out of a Portakabin on a site near home, but it was just a desk and kit. When I first started the journey was fairly simple, 3hrs each way, one change at Manchester Oxford Road, Then came the 2018 meltdown, and cancellations and short running started, so I would miss a week now and then. Covid then proved I can lead the control systems engineering remotely using technology. When the journey was reliable I believe the face to face was beneficial, but given the current issues I cannot justify booking maybe 8-10 hours to travel as well as the fares, and getting home very late, the face to face is nice but the job still gets done. It was one of those journeys that started this thread.

We also used to visit friends that live near Stalybridge or they would visit us, using the train, now we meet up half way, and both drive, the last journey with my wife was one of those 'never again' moments.

Neither of us are particularly fond of driving, and the M62 with its smart motorway is one of the more unpleasant routes, so we will use the train if its reliable and comfortable. Leisure travel is usually first class, using advance tickets where possible.

Looking back to 2017, my TPE spend was around £2500 as well as some leisure travel, 2022 its around £300 and no leisure travel, and around a third of that has come back in delay repay.

All the participants in the current battles within the industry need realise that if it carries on there will nothing to argue over, and the TOCs need to realise if they keep making bad decisions there wont be a railway, the DfT will just wash their hands and say to the treasury 'there you are, just saved you a huge amount of money'

As I have said in another thread I would not want to be dependant on the railways for employment or flow down business at the moment, its not just the direct workforce, its all the other suppliers that make their living from the rail network.

That experience is typical of stories I hear in Sheffield. When the service was reilable it was worth paying for. Even before Covid it was flawed. At least on South Pennine there are rail alternatives.

TPE will need to prove they can provide a reliable service for months before they'll get significant passenger numbers back. Most are now settled in a new work/life pattern that does not require a daily train. For leisure it doesn't include an expensive fast train.

That doesn't auger well for TPE.

 

[yorksrob]

I wonder why TPE hasn't received the same ultimatum that Avanti has. Doesn't run to London perhaps.

 

[Clarence Yard]

No, as someone on the select committee told us last week, the DfT are quietly cooking up a 4+4 deal for TPE, superseding the TPE deal which could end in 2023 if they were deemed to have not performed - the 2 year extension to 2025 on that “original” deal would therefore not be enacted.

Whether the DfT can get away with this is up to the politicians. It could become political impossible to continue to negotiate such a deal, let alone being able to approve it. It all depends on how much fuss is made.

 

[jfollows]

I wonder why TPE hasn't received the same ultimatum that Avanti has. Doesn't run to London perhaps.

Given that the Avanti one is a non-ultimatum really, it wouldn't matter would it? I mean, Avanti is going to be given "ultimatums" which each time just defer the decision to a later date, and if they were serious they'd have terminated the contract already, it's just an exercise of kicking the can down the road whilst appearing to be doing something.

 

[yorksrob]

No, as someone on the select committee told us last week, the DfT are quietly cooking up a 4+4 deal for TPE, superseding the TPE deal which could end in 2023 if they were deemed to have not performed - the 2 year extension to 2025 on that “original” deal would therefore not be enacted.

Whether the DfT can get away with this is up to the politicians. It could become political impossible to continue to negotiate such a deal, let alone being able to approve it. It all depends on how much fuss is made.

Well, that would be surprising, but then again, TPE are good at price gouging (as the £19 single fare from Manchester to Dewsbury will attest).

 

[Clarence Yard]

Given that the Avanti one is a non-ultimatum really, it wouldn't matter would it? I mean, Avanti is going to be given "ultimatums" which each time just defer the decision to a later date, and if they were serious they'd have terminated the contract already, it's just an exercise of kicking the can down the road whilst appearing to be doing something.

The DfT tend to prefer TOCs work to contract ends or break points. It saves them the legal hassle, which would be massive.

So it should be relatively easy to take West Coast back at the end of March and, if they wanted, TPE in May 2023. The question is, do they really want to?

 

[td97]

TPE causing mayhem at Victoria this morning with a unit sat in P5 since 0815 and P3 since 0900

 

[Frankfurt]

Try working for them!

The only thing I console myself with is the fact I'm not a fare paying passenger.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was on the 0727 Cleethorpes to Liverpool Lime Street yesterday when we ended up sitting at Manchester Oxford Road for 32 minutes to wait for a driver turn up to take us to Liverpool. I felt for the exasperated train manager who kept announcing “I’m really sorry, but we’re going to have to wait here as we don’t have a driver for our train. The control room keep telling me that he’s in a taxi in the other side of Manchester, but I’ve got no idea when he’ll get here.”

I was just about to abandon ship and get out to pick up the East Midlands service to Liverpool, which was just about to arrive on platform three, but then the driver turned up and I stuck with it.

Realtime Trains | 0727 Cleethorpes to Liverpool Lime Street | 19/12/2022

Real-time train running information for 0727 departure from Cleethorpes to Liverpool Lime Street on 19/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

There needs to be an outright ban on crew changes in central Manchester. This is yet another case of this causing utter chaos. In South TPE's case Stockport would be a better location.

 

[Greybeard33]

There needs to be an outright ban on crew changes in central Manchester. This is yet another case of this causing utter chaos. In South TPE's case Stockport would be a better location.

No, just no! Stockport has only two Down platforms and a blockage of one of them causes even more chaos than at Oxford Road (where P2 or P3 can be used bidirectionally).

TPE needs to stop crew changes on through services anywhere in the Manchester area. See also the chaos at Victoria this morning due to abandoned trains:

TPE causing mayhem at Victoria this morning with a unit sat in P5 since 0815 and P3 since 0900

 

[Furrball]

They really do not know how to read the room do they?

We're excited to announce a new on-board catering menu, with hot food available in first class for the first time! A revamped menu is also available on many Class 185 trains and in standard class on the Nova fleet.

Find out more here: bit.ly/TPECatering

https://twitter.com/TPExpressTrains/status/1605144419686039552?t=Thkvnwx4k_nn7dz8j9qwxA&s=19

 

[Moonshot]

No, just no! Stockport has only two Down platforms and a blockage of one of them causes even more chaos than at Oxford Road (where P2 or P3 can be used bidirectionally).

TPE needs to stop crew changes on through services anywhere in the Manchester area. See also the chaos at Victoria this morning due to abandoned trains:

Should that apply to Northern crew as well then?

 

[Greybeard33]

Should that apply to Northern crew as well then?

I believe the new timetable has reduced Northern crew changes in Manchester (no more through Southport to Alderley Edge, Blackpool to Hazel Grove or Liverpool to Crewe services). Whereas TPE crew changes have increased.

"If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging."

 

[Moonshot]

I believe the new timetable has reduced Northern crew changes in Manchester (no more through Southport to Alderley Edge, Blackpool to Hazel Grove or Liverpool to Crewe services). Whereas TPE crew changes have increased.

"If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging."

I can assure you it hasn't..... because I am one.

 

[td97]

TPE causing mayhem at Victoria this morning with a unit sat in P5 since 0815 and P3 since 0900

It appears the P5 unit will sit there for 6.5hrs until the 1440 departure, and the P3 unit went to Piccadilly at 1012 after blocking the platform for 70 minutes.