£2 Price Cap on fares in England - Now extended beyond October 2023

[Haywain]

Locally to me I received an email from Stagecoach to state their standard day, weekly etc tickets are being increased from 2nd January just as the £2 fare commences.

I found notice of a fares increase from January 8th on the Arriva website while looking for information about the £2 fare.

 

[mjc]

Remember that buses are really only used by those who have no alternative or hold concessionary passes.

I don’t think that’s true and it’s not a helpful line to perpetuate. Everyone has alternatives: car, train, taxi, cycle, walk, lift and others. It’s about a whole combination of factors including my cost, time, convenience, habit (and snobbery).
This scheme does two things, it shifts the cost balance and makes it simpler for people who may not be used to using buses, they know up front what it will cost without lots of effort. With fuel costs rising (stable ish now but still relatively high) and extortionate car park costs in the bigger city centres the bus can look like a more viable option, especially at reduced and flat rate costs.

I don't get why the DFT has opted to confuse matters by putting operators under their legal name rather than operating name. This list could have been much simpler for everyone if they did it in a normal way.

…

Needlessly confusing many people. Once again, our top of the range, certainly not overpaid, civil servants. Proving they are fully worth the money that we, as taxpayers, invest in them.

Few people will go to the dft or the mirror to find out about this offer though, they’ll go to their local rag or the operator concerned and find out. Who really knows their local bus company’s formal name or even trading name? Many folk around here still refer to PMT after over 20 years of it being taken over.

 

[Jan Mayen]

My local operators are Metrobus, Southdown and Compass. I believe all are going to take part in the £2 offer (assuming I've read the government website properly), and I'll be using it. However, I notice that Metrobus have yet to put any details on its website,

 

[markymark2000]

Few people will go to the dft or the mirror to find out about this offer though, they’ll go to their local rag or the operator concerned and find out. Who really knows their local bus company’s formal name or even trading name? Many folk around here still refer to PMT after over 20 years of it being taken over.

You've clearly not had the pleasure of reading most of the local rags then. Most of them, a Stagecoach article is full of Arriva photos and vice versa. They just about know buses exist, let alone know the companies name.

As for who knows the trading name, probably most people. 95% of people refer to Stagecoach as 'Stagecoach' rather than Ribble Motor Services, Cheltenham and Gloucester Omnibus or Cleveland Transit. Other examples exist.

It would help a lot of people if the list was using actual operating names rather than legal titles.

 

[GusB]

I don't think it's any great surprise that the press don't know their Arrivas from their Eastern Counties, but it's not really that important within the scope of this thread. Nor does it really matter whether the name listed is the legal name or the trading name. I think we're getting bogged down in technicalities that most passengers wouldn't know, nor care about!

 

[derbybusdepot]

I don’t think that’s true and it’s not a helpful line to perpetuate. Everyone has alternatives: car, train, taxi, cycle, walk, lift and others. It’s about a whole combination of factors including my cost, time, convenience, habit (and snobbery).
This scheme does two things, it shifts the cost balance and makes it simpler for people who may not be used to using buses, they know up front what it will cost without lots of effort. With fuel costs rising (stable ish now but still relatively high) and extortionate car park costs in the bigger city centres the bus can look like a more viable option, especially at reduced and flat rate costs.

Few people will go to the dft or the mirror to find out about this offer though, they’ll go to their local rag or the operator concerned and find out. Who really knows their local bus company’s formal name or even trading name? Many folk around here still refer to PMT after over 20 years of it being taken over.

It will be interesting to see how the £2 fare affects passenger numbers - and if it really does make the bus more appealing.

Services near me are quite unreliable, I doubt any new passengers would be too impressed no matter how much they had paid. Important things like this need sorting before any promotions, otherwise can cause more harm than good.

Who are £2 fares aimed at? Generally it will only appeal to those travelling alone. The car will nearly always be cheaper for couples/families unless it is a long journey.

I can see it working in bigger cities, where there are frequent services, but in smaller towns with infrequent services that finish at 6pm it may be a struggle. One shoe does not fit all.

Shall be interesting to see what percentage of the £2 fares are new passengers, and how many switch from buying other tickets.

 

[MedwayValiant]

So to come to the bottom line, have the users of this forum identified any major operator in England which comes within the scope of the scheme but has definitely chosen not to take part?

I'm not seeing the name of Ensignbus on any of the published lists, and I wouldn't be amazed if it's not interested. Not really a major operator, but I'd be rather more surprised if Nu-Venture has chosen not to get involved and I'm not seeing that name either.

 

[WatcherZero]

The announcement is 130 bus operators are implementing the £2 fare.
There are just over 500 bus operators in England and Wales according to the Dft annual bus statistics. Now some will be Welsh operators and not all will operate eligible services but it does indicate there is a significant number of operators not taking part.

 

[Soundwave]

The announcement is 130 bus operators are implementing the £2 fare.
There are just over 500 bus operators in England and Wales according to the Dft annual bus statistics. Now some will be Welsh operators and not all will operate eligible services but it does indicate there is a significant number of operators not taking part.

I think that is a red herring to be honest.

There are a load of bus operators that only provide scheduled schools and council contracts and are therefore not eligible for BSOG. But the local authority may instruct them to take part, certainly for everyday tended work, if not school services.

 

[derbybusdepot]

Assume the pot isn't bottomless. Is a percentage allotted to each operator so that they know what to expect revenue wise?

i notice diamond aren't on the list, and haven't put any details about it on their website. Surprising considering NX west midlands are offering it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Not sure how the £2 fare is going to have a long term benefit at all, although I hope to be proved wrong.

I don't think it's going to achieve very much at all. And in many cases I think it will make bus travel more expensive, as it won't be funded properly (these things never are) and so day/weekly/monthly tickets will rise in price to cover it.

A weekly ticket costing £19 is now a "saving" compared to 5x2x£2, even though last year a weekly will have been £15.

 

[johncrossley]

I don’t think that’s true and it’s not a helpful line to perpetuate. Everyone has alternatives: car, train, taxi, cycle, walk, lift and others. It’s about a whole combination of factors including my cost, time, convenience, habit (and snobbery).

Given the various statistics available, such as DfT transport statistics, it is hard to make a case otherwise. For example in 2019, there were just 48 bus trips per person per year. Obviously that has declined further since Covid. For commuting and business, trip purposes where a car is typically available, bus mode share is particularly low (under 10%) even lower than rail which obviously mainly caters for longer distance trips.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/870647/tsgb-2019.pdf

Why shouldn't people tell the truth about how few people use buses? If other countries do better, then you need to investigate why. If fares are part of the problem and the £2 fare gets some people out of cars then that might be useful information as to how to proceed in future. If it doesn't make much difference then you need to look elsewhere for the reasons for under-performance.

 

[Man of Kent]

There are a load of bus operators that only provide scheduled schools and council contracts and are therefore not eligible for BSOG. But the local authority may instruct them to take part, certainly for everyday tended work, if not school services.

Schools services are specifically excluded under the terms of the scheme. Arrangements are still to be published for local authorities to reimburse operators of contracted services who do not participate in BSOG.

 

[derbybusdepot]

Given the various statistics available, such as DfT transport statistics, it is hard to make a case otherwise. For example in 2019, there were just 48 bus trips per person per year. Obviously that has declined further since Covid. For commuting and business, trip purposes where a car is typically available, bus mode share is particularly low (under 10%) even lower than rail which obviously mainly caters for longer distance trips.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/870647/tsgb-2019.pdf

Why shouldn't people tell the truth about how few people use buses? If other countries do better, then you need to investigate why. If fares are part of the problem and the £2 fare gets some people out of cars then that might be useful information as to how to proceed in future. If it doesn't make much difference then you need to look elsewhere for the reasons for under-performance.

If you take into account the fact that less pass holders are travelling (even though free), that people travel less often for work (working from home), and less for leisure (less disposable income), it is a hard fight to get pax numbers to pre COVID levels even if you get new bums on seats.

Couple that with operators trying to reduce costs and driver shortages, do you end up marketing what is effectively a sub standard service compared to pre covid?

Services in Derby are poor, and can't see many would continue to use them after trying them out no matter what the cost.

 

[Typhoon]

Even though I have an Old Man's Bus Pass, I have already lined up a few journeys. Provided there is decent weather, I will head out some time around 08:30, kids in school by then and will avoid the queues for the first 'Bus Pass' journey. I can take advantage of the light mornings. Normally it would cost a fiver, a note; instead it will just cost shrapnel. I can live with that

 

[Robertj21a]

If you take into account the fact that less pass holders are travelling (even though free), that people travel less often for work (working from home), and less for leisure (less disposable income), it is a hard fight to get pax numbers to pre COVID levels even if you get new bums on seats.

Couple that with operators trying to reduce costs and driver shortages, do you end up marketing what is effectively a sub standard service compared to pre covid?

Services in Derby are poor, and can't see many would continue to use them after trying them out no matter what the cost.

Agreed. Too many bus services are unreliable these days (driver shortage, heavy traffic etc) and Trent is a good example of where something previously excellent [the Really Good Bus Company.....] is now in a much poorer position.
As the last large traditional independent I wonder if it will survive.

 

[ReeceD1993]

What is very interesting about the upcoming £2 Fare Cap is that could this actually be extended beyond 3 months.

 

[BenS123]

Just curious - has any bus operator commented on what will happen with child fares? I'm guessing they'll either be capped at £1 or £2, or remain unchanged?

 

[Haywain]

What is very interesting about the upcoming £2 Fare Cap is that could this actually be extended beyond 3 months.

What do you base that on?

 

[GusB]

What is very interesting about the upcoming £2 Fare Cap is that could this actually be extended beyond 3 months.

Could you clarify, please? Are you asking if the scheme could be extended beyond three months, or advising us that it could be? If it's the latter, please provide your source.

 

[158756]

Sullivan Buses have put a statement on their Twitter page on why they are not taking part in the scheme. They only have three routes which would have been eligible for the scheme, so again maybe this is a case of it being a lot of effort for relatively little benefit. They also cite the issue of student tickets not receiving any support from the scheme, and potential increases in journey times as a result of more passengers buying cash singles on the bus.

The student ticket point is interesting - is it the funding only for adult singles? Are operators expected to take the hit for offering the £2 fare to students and children on regular routes?

 

[busestrains]

What i am surprised about is how many state owned bus operators are not taking part as i would have thought that all state owned bus operators would be included in the scheme seeing that the government is running this thing.

None of these state owned operators seem to be included:

• Bath & North East Somerset Council
• Beaminster Town Council
• Caerphilly County Borough Council
• Cogenhoe & Whiston Parish Council
• Comhairle Nan Eilean Siar
• Denbighshire County Council
• Dumfries & Galloway Council
• Edwards Bros
• Monmouthshire County Council
• Moray Council
• North Yorkshire County Council
• Nottinghamshire County Council
• Pembrokeshire County Council
• Runnymede Community Transport
• Scottish Borders Council
• Somerset County Council
• West Berkshire Council

I thought that the state owned operators definitely would as they are run by the councils directly.

In fact looking in to this further, Cardiff Bus, Newport Bus, Lothian Buses, Lothian Country Buses, East Coast Buses, Translink, Bus Vannin, all do not appear to be participating either which is very surprising considering how large they are.

So it appears that, Blackpool Transport, Ipswich Bus, Nottingham City Transport (only partly state owned), Reading Buses (including their other brands), Warrington Buses, Uno Buses, seem to be the only state owned operators that are participating in it.

 

[johncrossley]

In fact looking in to this further, Cardiff Bus, Newport Bus, Lothian Buses, Lothian Country Buses, East Coast Buses, Translink, Bus Vannin, all do not appear to be participating either which is very surprising considering how large they are.

They are not in England.

 

[NorthOxonian]

What i am surprised about is how many state owned bus operators are not taking part as i would have thought that all state owned bus operators would be included in the scheme seeing that the government is running this thing.

None of these state owned operators seem to be included:

• Bath & North East Somerset Council
• Beaminster Town Council
• Caerphilly County Borough Council
• Cogenhoe & Whiston Parish Council
• Comhairle Nan Eilean Siar
• Denbighshire County Council
• Dumfries & Galloway Council
• Edwards Bros
• Monmouthshire County Council
• Moray Council
• North Yorkshire County Council
• Nottinghamshire County Council
• Pembrokeshire County Council
• Runnymede Community Transport
• Scottish Borders Council
• Somerset County Council
• West Berkshire Council

I thought that the state owned operators definitely would as they are run by the councils directly.

In fact looking in to this further, Cardiff Bus, Newport Bus, Lothian Buses, Lothian Country Buses, East Coast Buses, Translink, Bus Vannin, all do not appear to be participating either which is very surprising considering how large they are.

So it appears that, Blackpool Transport, Ipswich Bus, Nottingham City Transport (only partly state owned), Reading Buses (including their other brands), Warrington Buses, Uno Buses, seem to be the only state owned operators that are participating in it.

I believe the scheme is England only - most of the state owned companies you list are outwith England (and the few exceptions tend to be councils who only run a handful of routes).

 

[RT4038]

What i am surprised about is how many state owned bus operators are not taking part as i would have thought that all state owned bus operators would be included in the scheme seeing that the government is running this thing.

None of these state owned operators seem to be included:

• Bath & North East Somerset Council
• Beaminster Town Council
• Caerphilly County Borough Council
• Cogenhoe & Whiston Parish Council
• Comhairle Nan Eilean Siar
• Denbighshire County Council
• Dumfries & Galloway Council
• Edwards Bros
• Monmouthshire County Council
• Moray Council
• North Yorkshire County Council
• Nottinghamshire County Council
• Pembrokeshire County Council
• Runnymede Community Transport
• Scottish Borders Council
• Somerset County Council
• West Berkshire Council

I thought that the state owned operators definitely would as they are run by the councils directly.

In fact looking in to this further, Cardiff Bus, Newport Bus, Lothian Buses, Lothian Country Buses, East Coast Buses, Translink, Bus Vannin, all do not appear to be participating either which is very surprising considering how large they are.

So it appears that, Blackpool Transport, Ipswich Bus, Nottingham City Transport (only partly state owned), Reading Buses (including their other brands), Warrington Buses, Uno Buses, seem to be the only state owned operators that are participating in it.

So, discounting the operations that are not in England, it is a fairly small list. Just because one arm of the State is sponsoring the £2 scheme doesn't necessarily follow that other (virtually unconnected) organs of the State will follow. I expect this will be all to do with the quantity of administration for services that have a very high proportion of ENCTS users and very few fare-payers [middle of day shopper services mainly]. No doubt if the scheme is extended in time period more (mostly small)operators will register to take part. In my county of residence there are some peripheral operations which will not be taking part (mainly the aforesaid type services). There is no legislation to force participation.

 

[ReeceD1993]

What I am saying is that the 1 pound single fare in Southampton that starts after 6pm has been running since summer 2021 which was only supposed to be running for a few months has now ended up remaining for an indefinite period.

What's to say this won't happen with the 2 pound fare cap

 

[Man of Kent]

None of these state owned operators seem to be included:

• Bath & North East Somerset Council
• Beaminster Town Council
• Caerphilly County Borough Council
• Cogenhoe & Whiston Parish Council

The last one is.

 

[busestrains]

The last one is.

Yes you are right they are. Cogenhoe & Whiston Parish Council are on the list. I must have missed that. Good to see they are part of it.

 

[James H]

There is a distinction between 'state owned' and 'publicly owned' too.

 

[busestrains]

There is a distinction between 'state owned' and 'publicly owned' too.

What is the difference? Surely they both mean the same thing? If something is state owned than it is also publicly owned and if something is publicly owned than it is also state owned?