£2 Price Cap on fares in England - Now extended beyond October 2023

[Deerfold]

As child fares are 50% of adult fares will they theoretically be capped at £1? Government material has referred exclusively to adult fares.

Child fares are often not 50% of adult fares. Many are 2/3 of adult fares. Some operators don't have child fares.

 

[henryb]

Child fares are often not 50% of adult fares. Many are 2/3 of adult fares. Some operators don't have child fares.

Did not realise this, in the SW they are typically 50%

 

[Peter Philips]

Did not realise this, in the SW they are typically 50%

Not on Stagecoach South West where children 5-15 only receive a 33% discount on singles and returns (where returns are still available).

 

[317 forever]

In some cases, if we plan a around trip of say 3 or 4 buses, a day ticket will no longer be the most cost-effective option.

An example is Transdev buses Leeds - Harrogate - Bradford - Bingley - Leeds. It is cheaper to buy 4 singles at £2 each, total £8, than a Daytripper for £12.

 

[cumbrianbill]

Interesting that cross boundary services are included, but only for journeys that start in England. So a single from Carlisle to Dumfries will be £2 but a single going the other way will be £9.70 (though because a day ticket is cheaper than a single on that route, that would presumably be sold instead for £8).

Stagecoach website shows a price of £2.00 for Dumfries to Carlisle.

 

[Marcus Fryer]

Stagecoach website shows a price of £2.00 for Dumfries to Carlisle.

Interestingly, the website shows a £2.00 single Carlisle or Gretna to Dumfries and also Dumfries to Gretna or Carlisle, but a return fare of £9.60!

 

[Volvo142]

I typically use a minimum of 12 singles a week on Arriva Derby, which would work out at £24, compared to a weekly ticket at £16.50, so no use to me, unless I venture out on a TrentBarton route for beers, which would normally incur a £7 Zigzag ticket..

 

[ashkeba]

I speculate that the £2 fare can trigger a lot of extra demand on interurban travel between places not linked by the railways, for example, orbital journeys in Hertfordshire and Buckinghamshire (where the railways only offer a radial service).

I thought of doing a Norfolk orbital by using the coast buses to get between Cromer and King's Lynn, but it looks like lynx ( official name Coastal Red) aren't participating?

 

[derbybusdepot]

I typically use a minimum of 12 singles a week on Arriva Derby, which would work out at £24, compared to a weekly ticket at £16.50, so no use to me, unless I venture out on a TrentBarton route for beers, which would normally incur a £7 Zigzag ticket..

But how much would someone spend a week if they lived on a Derby city route served by Trent barton? The little known Spectrum card weekly ticket at £24?

People may be inclined to just get £2 singles when they need them, and walk or use other methods of travel at times if weekly/monthly tickets offer little incentive.

So for arriva Derby at least, a drop in weekly/monthly pass purchases seems unlikely. Other operators may suffer more, and any government reimbursement may not cover this enough. That is perhaps why some operators are wary of the scheme. Uncertainty, followed by greater uncertainty when it ends.

 

[MetalMicky]

I hear the reasons given by operators that choose not to take part, but what depresses me is that they don’t believe that enough extra passengers will travel to offset their additional costs. In other words, ridership is on a downward spiral that will never be reversed, whatever fare reductions are tried out. Managing decline.

My local town service went over to county council minibus operation with free travel for all and it still only carries a handful of passengers. Meanwhile the town’s car parks are packed even though there are charges to use them.

Motorists couldn’t give a monkey’s about their cars causing congestion and are content to sit in endless traffic jams as buses pass them on the inside lane. Carrots don’t work, only sticks.

 

[johncrossley]

I hear the reasons given by operators that choose not to take part, but what depresses me is that they don’t believe that enough extra passengers will travel to offset their additional costs. In other words, ridership is on a downward spiral that will never be reversed, whatever fare reductions are tried out. Managing decline.

My local town service went over to county council minibus operation with free travel for all and it still only carries a handful of passengers. Meanwhile the town’s car parks are packed even though there are charges to use them.

Motorists couldn’t give a monkey’s about their cars causing congestion and are content to sit in endless traffic jams as buses pass them on the inside lane. Carrots don’t work, only sticks.

Are we talking about Oakham? You can't expect many people to use a town service in a place that size, especially if it only runs a few times a day. It is easy enough to walk to the town centre from anywhere in the town. Low fares probably help in London and might help in other big cities, but you have to have a good enough service as well.

 

[Haywain]

It is easy enough to walk to the town centre from anywhere in the town.

That's an easy generalisation but it doesn't apply to everyone. In the town where I live I can walk to the town centre in 15 minutes but it's too far for Mrs H and some of our neighbours to be able to walk. That is why local bus services are important.

 

[johncrossley]

That's an easy generalisation but it doesn't apply to everyone. In the town where I live I can walk to the town centre in 15 minutes but it's too far for Mrs H and some of our neighbours to be able to walk. That is why local bus services are important.

You are talking about buses as a social service. The people you mention will either already be using the bus, or driving themselves. The point is that you cannot expect an infrequent local bus service in a small town to attract many people out of cars. Most people without cars will choose to walk instead, if they are able.

 

[GusB]

The thread has started to drift off-topic again. Now that we've seen the list of participating operators, perhaps it would be an idea to allow some time for the £2 scheme to bed in. With that in mind, the thread will be locked for now.

As and when there is some actual news about how the scheme is actually performing, we can consider re-opening at a later date.

Thanks for all your contributions so far.

 

[GusB]

Thread unlocked for further discussion.

 

[danielcanning]

It was a mistake excluding school bus routes from the cap, at least in Buckinghamshire school buses have been running empty while students have been piling on to the 'normal' services causing overcrowding.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

It was a mistake excluding school bus routes from the cap, at least in Buckinghamshire school buses have been running empty while students have been piling on to the 'normal' services causing overcrowding.

I suppose that comes down to a debate about the definition. School buses, buses used by scholars, buses which specifically divert to a school, open (anyone can use) or closed (specific persons only) contract, I'm sure there are more possibilities.

There have been examples where a school bus runs sort of alongside a normal service bus eg route 100 and route 100S (S for school). If the scholars are paying cash it seems inevitable they will go for the cheapest option. At £20 per week (£2 single x 5 days x both ways) that's an expensive pass (at child rates) they are avoiding. If these are over 16 students then they are no different than adult commuters who can benefit from the £2 offer. Perhaps an 0930 limit should have been applied to the offer (or whatever the local ENCTS restriction is, if any).

Without knowing the specific details, one answer would be to to cancel the school bus but then run the vehicle as a duplicate to the 'normal' bus. Is it worth the paperwork for three months? plus a bit late if registration with VOSA is required.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If there's a normal service bus that is applicable to the school journeys and has enough capacity then I'd question why there's a subsidised school service at all. Though I think some of the Z&S operated school services are actually commercial.

 

[Deerfold]

If these are over 16 students then they are no different than adult commuters who can benefit from the £2 offer. Perhaps an 0930 limit should have been applied to the offer (or whatever the local ENCTS restriction is, if any).

Had there been an official explanation of who this offer is aimed at?

Is it leisure travel? Is it to get people to use the bus to and from work?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Had there been an official explanation of who this offer is aimed at?

Is it leisure travel? Is it to get people to use the bus to and from work?

I haven't looked too closely, my main bus use (with a minor operator of bus services) isn't taking part. I've paid £1.30 over the £2 offer fare three times already mumble grumble. 'Help for Households' seems to be the slogan, rather than attracting car users to travel by bus, so cheaper travel costs for children / over 16 students ticks that box. Families being heavily subsidised already, free childcare, childcare vouchers, free school meals, tax credits, subsidising everyone else's kids 'free' breakfast at Travelodge / Premier Inn more mumble grumble.

 

[Neo9320]

This offer has actually taken me off the train (for now at least). It may have added an extra half hour each way to my commute, but the savings, and knowing that (up to now) the bus drivers aren’t planning any strikes, have made it worthwhile. I also only have walk a mere 3 minutes to the bus stop, rather than a 15 minute bike ride to the train station.

Will I remain bus loyal once the offer is over? No idea yet, haven’t thought that far ahead. But up to now I’ve had no delays, no cancelled services and being as I take an early bus and my stop is one of the first, I haven’t had to stand!

Side note- it’s also lovely to have extra time to catch up on reading, something that was never really worthwhile on the shorter train journey.

 

[Ralph Ayres]

I've made a few leisure journeys I wouldn't otherwise have done at the full extortionate price, but I do wonder how the average person who doesn't follow niche public transport news is meant to be enticed aboard. I've seen no publicity, even on the back of my local First and Arriva buses which are both taking part in the scheme. Perhaps it's not aimed at attracting extra usage; certainly nothing from the DfT or the (now former) Transport Secretary who announced it makes that clear, just referring vaguely to "supporting passengers by reducing the cost of bus fares".

 

[Neo9320]

I've made a few leisure journeys I wouldn't otherwise have done at the full extortionate price, but I do wonder how the average person who doesn't follow niche public transport news is meant to be enticed aboard. I've seen no publicity, even on the back of my local First and Arriva buses which are both taking part in the scheme. Perhaps it's not aimed at attracting extra usage; certainly nothing from the DfT or the (now former) Transport Secretary who announced it makes that clear, just referring vaguely to "supporting passengers by reducing the cost of bus fares".

Oh yeah that’s a point I should have added. I had NO IDEA about this offer until a bus driver told me about it during strike action in December. There has been zero advertising regarding the offer locally or nationally that I have seen (even though I’m bombarded with adverts from firstbus constantly, these make no mention of it!)

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Oh yeah that’s a point I should have added. I had NO IDEA about this offer until a bus driver told me about it during strike action in December. There has been zero advertising regarding the offer locally or nationally that I have seen (even though I’m bombarded with adverts from firstbus constantly, these make no mention of it!)

There is minimal information on the First website, plus it was added after the scheme started. Basically there is something on the 'landing page' you can click on it and it goes to the same graphic (two young persons looking exceptionally happy) but the text is for their 'busloads to love' promotion.

 

[Typhoon]

Oh yeah that’s a point I should have added. I had NO IDEA about this offer until a bus driver told me about it during strike action in December. There has been zero advertising regarding the offer locally or nationally that I have seen (even though I’m bombarded with adverts from firstbus constantly, these make no mention of it!)

I have seen some promotion for it but, as a bus user who was aware of it, I was looking out for it. Nothing that stood out, though and it soon got swamped with other information. On several journeys I have taken, the driver has taken the time to explain the fare, on one occasion a passenger had (almost) the right fare for the normal fare but not for the £2 fare and the driver didn't have sufficient change. I am sure buses have run late as a result. Doubtless there will be a similar problem when it ends.

A couple of things I have noticed. One is confusion when one operator in a town is operating the scheme and another, smaller one, isn't; the latter are hardly going to put a notice up saying they are not part of the scheme. Also, when travelling before 09:30, a number of elderly shoppers paying £2 to get to the shops early (they had shopping trolleys), meaning that they, at least, were contributing extra revenue.

 

[NorwichRailFan]

I thought of doing a Norfolk orbital by using the coast buses to get between Cromer and King's Lynn, but it looks like lynx ( official name Coastal Red) aren't participating?

This can still be done by buying A Norfolk fusion ticket at £12 which is Still Good Value. .

 

[markymark2000]

I haven't looked too closely, my main bus use (with a minor operator of bus services) isn't taking part. I've paid £1.30 over the £2 offer fare three times already mumble grumble. 'Help for Households' seems to be the slogan, rather than attracting car users to travel by bus, so cheaper travel costs for children / over 16 students ticks that box. Families being heavily subsidised already, free childcare, childcare vouchers, free school meals, tax credits, subsidising everyone else's kids 'free' breakfast at Travelodge / Premier Inn more mumble grumble.

On Arriva Wales, my mum boarded within England and asked the driver for her ticket (destination in Wales) and was quoted normal price. She said that it should be £2 now with the fare cap and he said 'Hang on, I've heard something about this but never issued one' and he had to go searching through the machine to find the proper fare.

This means for Arriva Wales at least, their machines are being set up to charge normal fare and only be given the £2 fare for passengers who specifically ask for it. Completely unacceptable but nothing surprises me with the incompetence of Arriva Wales management.

 

[Wolfie]

As child fares are 50% of adult fares will they theoretically be capped at £1? Government material has referred exclusively to adult fares.

Your first sentence is far from true for all operators. I had cause to use Arriva in Telford with my daughter both before the scheme went live and subsequently. Put it this way, the "half" fare was far from that! Pre-scheme operation the adult fare for a journey was £3, the child fare £2.20. After the scheme went live the adult fare was £2 as was the child fare.

On Arriva Wales, my mum asked the driver for her ticket and was quoted normal price. She said that it should be £2 now with the fare cap and he said 'Hang on, I've heard something about this but never issued one' and he had to go searching through the machine to find the proper fare.

This means for Arriva Wales at least, their machines are being set up to charge normal fare and only be given the £2 fare for passengers who specifically ask for it. Completely unacceptable but nothing surprises me with the incompetence of Arriva Wales management.

On a service in Wales or operated by a Welsh operator in England? This is an English scheme.

 

[markymark2000]

Your first sentence is far from true for all operators. I had cause to use Arriva in Telford with my daughter both before the scheme went live and subsequently. Put it this way, the "half" fare was far from that! Pre-scheme operation the adult fare for a journey was £3, the child fare £2.20. After the scheme went live the adult fare was £2 as was the child fare.


On a service in Wales or operated by a Welsh operator in England? This is an English scheme.

Boarding in England going to Wales. This is covered by the scheme.

 

[Wolfie]

Boarding in England going to Wales. This is covered by the scheme.

Ok, it wasn't clear, that's all. Poor by Arriva then if they've signed up to the scheme on those routes l agree.