Paper tickets with Aztec barcodes versus TfL.

[Ashley Hill]

Why do TfL not accept paper tickets with barcodes?

For example buying a ticket from Bedminster to Strood routed via London requires changing the paper ticket for a card one at Paddington. The paper ticket displays the Maltese cross so presumably TfL get a proportion of the fare and yet get huffy about allowing paper tickets manually through the barriers.

Does this fly in the face of through ticketing arrangements?

 

[yorkie]

Why do TfL not accept paper tickets with barcodes?

For example buying a ticket from Bedminster to Strood routed via London requires changing the paper ticket for a card one at Paddington. The paper ticket displays the Maltese cross so presumably TfL get a proportion of the fare and yet get huffy about allowing paper tickets manually through the barriers.

Basically because TfL don't want the hassle of manual checks and don't want the expense of Aztec code readers.

Does this fly in the face of through ticketing arrangements?

Yes it does and TfL should be forced to accept them.

In fact if such a ticket was issued, I would say contractually TfL are bound to accept them.

TfL are an absolutely rotten organisation; my opinion of them has gone down massively in recent years (Crossrail ticketing being the final straw!) and I would love to have an argument with a senior person from TfL (the full argument, not the 5 minute argument)

 

[Ashley Hill]

Basically because TfL don't want the hassle of manual checks and don't want the expense of Aztec code readers.


Yes it does and TfL should be forced to accept them.

In fact if such a ticket was issued, I would say contractually TfL are bound to accept them.

TfL are an absolutely rotten organisation; my opinion of them has gone down massively in recent years (Crossrail ticketing being the final straw!) and I would love to have an argument with a senior person from TfL (the full argument, not the 5 minute argument)

Interestingly TTK ticket machines prompt you if the journey is via London and asks you to confirm if you still want to issue the ticket. On-train staff are not meant to issue Travelcards or tickets to Zones either on paper stock. A ticket to London must be sold and then re-book on TfL.

 

[Steddenm]

Wasn't there a ticket from a destination (say, Bournemouth) to an all zones Travelcard but issued on SPORTIS as "Exchange Travelcard" at one point which had to be exchanged at Waterloo for a magstripe CCST stock?

 

[MikeWh]

TfL are an absolutely rotten organisation; my opinion of them has gone down massively in recent years (Crossrail ticketing being the final straw!) and I would love to have an argument with a senior person from TfL (the full argument, not the 5 minute argument)

The bottom line is that TfL are answerable to the Mayor. Fares are directed by a Mayoral Decision each year. Perhaps you should request an audience with Sadiq?

As I have said on another thread, Crossrail ticketing will be down to the DfT/Treasury ultimately. Who do you propose should pay to reduce the price of millions of East-West journeys across London?

 

[paul1609]

Basically because TfL don't want the hassle of manual checks and don't want the expense of Aztec code readers.


Yes it does and TfL should be forced to accept them.

In fact if such a ticket was issued, I would say contractually TfL are bound to accept them.

TfL are an absolutely rotten organisation; my opinion of them has gone down massively in recent years (Crossrail ticketing being the final straw!) and I would love to have an argument with a senior person from TfL (the full argument, not the 5 minute argument)

This rather assumes that RDG consulted and got the agreement of TFL before the Aztec Code tickets were introduced. Im reliably informed that some TOCs had introduced the tickets before there was even unanimous agreement amongst the RDG TOCs on the basis of own TOC cost savings which is what led to the mess we are in.

 

[ainsworth74]

In fact if such a ticket was issued, I would say contractually TfL are bound to accept them.

I still kick myself for the occasion I was issued an e-ticket a few years ago (pre-Covid at least) for cross London travel (I think it was something a London Zone 1-2 to Darlington Advance or similar) but forgot it was issued from the Zones so used my Oyster instead to cross London. Would have been fascinting to see what happened on the LU barrier otherwise.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Yes,I forgot about eTickets. Do TfL have the same inexcusable acceptance issues with those too?

 

[Starmill]

A ticket to London must be sold and then re-book on TfL.

That is a very bizarre policy. Isn't the usual policy to issue the ticket to ToD, or if that's not possible, not issue any ticket as the customer doesn't have the opportunity to pay?

Yes,I forgot about eTickets. Do TfL have the same inexcusable acceptance issues with those too?

Depends what you mean by inexcusable. It might be inexcusable if someone were offering to provide them with all of the necessary funding. That appears not to be the case. Surely it's not a surprise therefore that progress is so slow?

In fact if such a ticket was issued, I would say contractually TfL are bound to accept them.

Indeed. There are already cases where paper roll tickets are issued to say Rickmansworth or Taplow, and they just have to accept them. I think Taplow may have scanners now.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Tickets on phones have the same Aztec codes as paper tickets which TfL do not like. If a passenger buys a ticket on their smartphone via London do TfL readily accept them? If yes why the objection to paper tickets? If a passenger has already paid why get penalised at the TfL gates?

 

[Starmill]

If a passenger buys a ticket on their smartphone via London do TfL readily accept them?

They're generally not available. They'll usually be fulfilled by ToD.

 

[Ashley Hill]

If a TVM isn’t working or the Booking Office closed TTK machines cannot issue TOD cross London tickets on train. Hardly convenient for the passenger.

 

[david1212]

Why do TfL not accept paper tickets with barcodes?

For example buying a ticket from Bedminster to Strood routed via London requires changing the paper ticket for a card one at Paddington. The paper ticket displays the Maltese cross so presumably TfL get a proportion of the fare and yet get huffy about allowing paper tickets manually through the barriers.

Does this fly in the face of through ticketing arrangements?

Bought at a station I thought 'Maltese Cross' and London Travelcard tickets should always be issued as Magnetic Strip CCST. If online as stated only as a ticket for collect that again should be Magnetic Strip CCST.

On train an issue if only a 'bog roll' machine available so no real option but changing to CCST at the London arrival station or say Reading if changing to CrossRail / Elizabeth Line.

As I posted on another thread IMO fingers should be pointed at National Rail for failing to implement nationwide ITSO smartcard ticketing compatible with TfL Oyster and Debit Card readers rather than TfL for not investing in Aztec code readers.

 

[Class800]

The controversial one has been London Terminals e-tickets from Moorgate as the National Rail platforms 9 and 10 in Moorgate used to be tube lines until the 1970s, and it's basically a tube station with National Rail services. There have been a lot of issues with these in the past. Not sure if this has improved due to Crossrail?

 

[alistairlees]

This rather assumes that RDG consulted and got the agreement of TFL before the Aztec Code tickets were introduced. Im reliably informed that some TOCs had introduced the tickets before there was even unanimous agreement amongst the RDG TOCs on the basis of own TOC cost savings which is what led to the mess we are in.

This isn't an accurate representation. eTickets were introduced as a natural progression from m-tickets, driven by customer expectations more than by cost savings. Waiting for everyone to agree would have meant having no barcode tickets at all for years.

 

[Haywain]

eTickets were introduced as a natural progression from m-tickets,

And from the previous iterations of 'Self Print' or 'Print at Home' tickets.

As I posted on another thread IMO fingers should be pointed at National Rail for failing to implement nationwide ITSO smartcard ticketing compatible with TfL Oyster and Debit Card readers rather than TfL for not investing in Aztec code readers.

How would these nationwide ITSO smartcard tickets work for tickets with seat reservations?

 

[paul1609]

And from the previous iterations of 'Self Print' or 'Print at Home' tickets.


How would these nationwide ITSO smartcard tickets work for tickets with seat reservations?

What percentage of UK rail journeys include an actual seat reservation? less than 5%?

 

[Haywain]

What percentage of UK rail journeys include an actual seat reservation? less than 5%?

I don't know the figures but I am sure that it is significantly higher than that.

 

[Benjwri]

What percentage of UK rail journeys include an actual seat reservation? less than 5%?

Far more than 5% I would assume. With the majority of long distance services being reservations recommended or required, especially post Covid, and every advance ticket requiring a reservation. All you have to do is go on a train. And look at the Christmas tree of lights, and you’ll be able to see that the majority of seats are reserved, even if those reservations are very often unused.

 

[paul1609]

I don't know the figures but I am sure that it is significantly higher than that.

It would be interesting to know but given that in the latest ORR figures even post covid the London and South East Sector operates 68.7% of all UK rail journeys and LNER operates 1.8% I doubt that it makes it much (if any) in to double figures. Having the long distance operators specifying the ticketing is very much tail wagging the dog.

 

[david1212]

...
How would these nationwide ITSO smartcard tickets work for tickets with seat reservations?

Technically I've no idea.
Practically as part of the data. At the point of purchase, which I guess is close to 100% online, given on screen plus included in the booking confirmation email.
If using a phone app ( rather than a proper website within a web browser be that properly on a computer / large screen tablet or struggling on a tiny phone screen with half covered by the touch keyboard ) recorded within the app I guess.
Either way so long as stored to be accessible without either wi-fi or phone data connection it can be shown on the phone screen. Train staff of course can read the ITSO data.

Addition:
Once the ITSO card is presented reservation data can be updated. An Aztec code can not be changed. While a new Aztec code can be issued also the old one has to be cancelled. There is the possibility / risk of presenting the old code plus not receiving the new one / not being able to access it without either wi-fi or phone data connection.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I still kick myself for the occasion I was issued an e-ticket a few years ago (pre-Covid at least) for cross London travel (I think it was something a London Zone 1-2 to Darlington Advance or similar) but forgot it was issued from the Zones so used my Oyster instead to cross London. Would have been fascinting to see what happened on the LU barrier otherwise.

Wouldn't have been that unless you bought it from a well know third party retailer who doesn't use the industry systems that govern such things.

Technically I've no idea.
Practically as part of the data. At the point of purchase, which I guess is close to 100% online, given on screen plus included in the booking confirmation email.
If using a phone app ( rather than a proper website within a web browser be that properly on a computer / large screen tablet or struggling on a tiny phone screen with half covered by the touch keyboard ) recorded within the app I guess.
Either way so long as stored to be accessible without either wi-fi or phone data connection it can be shown on the phone screen. Train staff of course can read the ITSO data.

Addition:
Once the ITSO card is presented reservation data can be updated. An Aztec code can not be changed. While a new Aztec code can be issued also the old one has to be cancelled. There is the possibility / risk of presenting the old code plus not receiving the new one / not being able to access it without either wi-fi or phone data connection.

Totall and utter non starter, customers struggle to find their seats when it on their travel tickets not to mention other infrastructure that is needed for ITSO

 

[Benjwri]

Totall and utter non starter, customers struggle to find their seats when it on their travel tickets not to mention other infrastructure that is needed for ITSO

Although it is already equally hard to find on e tickets…. Regardless of whether the forum thinks they are a good idea, it is extremely hard to find a reservation on Trainline’s Mobile app, and the tickets which you can add to Apple/Google Wallet do not short reservations.

 

[_toommm_]

Although it is already equally hard to find on e tickets…. Regardless of whether the forum thinks they are a good idea, it is extremely hard to find a reservation on Trainline’s Mobile app, and the tickets which you can add to Apple/Google Wallet do not short reservations.

They do if there is only one train they are travelling on, as there is space to display it. If not, clicking the info button shows the reservations. See below:

An e-ticket in my Apple Wallet for a single train:


An e-ticket in my Apple Wallet for a journey with multiple reservations:

 

[Bungle965]

If a TVM isn’t working or the Booking Office closed TTK machines cannot issue TOD cross London tickets on train. Hardly convenient for the passenger.

This must be something that your company has specified as we certainly can with our TTK devices.

 

[Benjwri]

They do if there is only one train they are travelling on, as there is space to display it. If not, clicking the info button shows the reservations. See below:

An e-ticket in my Apple Wallet for a single train:


An e-ticket in my Apple Wallet for a journey with multiple reservations:

Interesting, I was unaware of the ability to view seat reservations with the info button, and I doubt anyone would know about it without being told, it certainly isn’t easily accessible.

As for them being displayed on the ticket, I am unable to see this. I have numerous expired tickets in my wallet, including single tickets with only one train in the itinerary and one seat reservation, but it still does not show on the ticket.

 

[Haywain]

It would be interesting to know but given that in the latest ORR figures even post covid the London and South East Sector operates 68.7% of all UK rail journeys and LNER operates 1.8% I doubt that it makes it much (if any) in to double figures. Having the long distance operators specifying the ticketing is very much tail wagging the dog.

You will no doubt be aware that pretty much every TOC sells Advance tickets, including those in the London & South East, every one of which requires a reservation. And LNER is only one part of the long-distance sector, so the 1.8% figure isn't really relevant.

If using a phone app ( rather than a proper website within a web browser be that properly on a computer / large screen tablet or struggling on a tiny phone screen with half covered by the touch keyboard ) recorded within the app I guess.
Either way so long as stored to be accessible without either wi-fi or phone data connection it can be shown on the phone screen.

None of that has anything to do with smartcards.

As for them being displayed on the ticket, I am unable to see this. I have numerous expired tickets in my wallet, including single tickets with only one train in the itinerary and one seat reservation, but it still does not show on the ticket.

I can see the reservations on the eTickets in my Google wallet.

 

[Benjwri]

I can see the reservations on the eTickets in my Google wallet.

Odd, I have never had a reservation appear on a ticket. I currently have a Didcot - Paddington single with a reservation on a single train which doesn’t show the reservation.

 

[alistairlees]

Odd, I have never had a reservation appear on a ticket. I currently have a Didcot - Paddington single with a reservation on a single train which doesn’t show the reservation.

Suggest you post an image of the reverse side of the eTicket? There should be a reservation for each reservable leg, unless you opted not to have one. Where did you buy it?

 

[Ashley Hill]

This must be something that your company has specified as we certainly can with our TTK devices.

We have paper tickets. When trying to issue TOD tickets via London the ticket will display but the screen says no valid delivery option and will not let you print it.