Poor quality passenger rail service increases demand for private car purchases

[Thirteen]

I agree that for every full car there are many with only the driver in. One thing to factor in is those journeys with fewer people in are often shorter. Certainly shorter than the family of four going on holiday.

But it is sad to see in Croydon the rise of the out of town shopping with all its car parks. Also we have had bus routes replaced by cycle lanes thus forcing the bus stops to be further from the town centre. Something I did not expect is the almost total lack of cycles using those cycle lanes !. We have also had most bus shelters removed during 2022 (I am puzzled by this). It just shows a lack of appreciation of public transport by the council and at a time when public transport is vulnerable.

I wonder if the tram is partly the reason why many bus routes in Croydon have been removed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if the tram is partly the reason why many bus routes in Croydon have been removed.

It is, yes. The Croydon tram differs from the other systems in that it is priced as a bus journey and largely intended to replace bus journeys (plus get people out of cars of course). TfL have been quite open about that all along.

 

[al78]

Well, quite. Most people actually want to live in safe, leafy suburbia and use their car easily.

And then moan about traffic congestion which their collective lifestyle choices have caused. People are very individualistic and don't/won't grasp the bigger picture of actions -> consequences. The UK has more of an American than a European mentality.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And then moan about traffic congestion which their collective lifestyle choices have caused. People are very individualistic and don't/won't grasp the bigger picture of actions -> consequences. The UK has more of an American than a European mentality.

It's not different in mainland Europe either, though public transport networks are generally better so get more use.

 

[philosopher]

Most offices in Croydon have gone, empty or converted to flats. I know as there ceased to be jobs in them.

I am afraid offices are going the same way as shops. Out of town (be that satelite towns, homes or similar to industrial/retail parks).

I think this raises an interesting point, as much of the reduction in office space is occurring in out of town or suburban town centre where people tend to drive to work as companies consolidate their office space into city centres.

Therefore you may get situations where a worker previously drove to an office in an out of town office park five time a week but instead now gets a train twice a week to an office in a city centre. In this case, working from home may not be as detrimental to rail use as it may seem.

 

[GoneSouth]

It's not different in mainland Europe either, though public transport networks are generally better so get more use.

So very different then really

And then moan about traffic congestion which their collective lifestyle choices have caused. People are very individualistic and don't/won't grasp the bigger picture of actions -> consequences. The UK has more of an American than a European mentality.

Indeed. And there is no obligation on the developer to do anything about upgrading the roads to cope with the extra congestion they have caused.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So very different then really

No, not very different. The private car is still by far the majority mode of transport in all of Europe. You're talking about shifts of 5-10% here and there.

Even in the Netherlands 65% (in 2019*) of commutes were by car. And "la France aime vraiment la voiture"!

While I'm a great advocate of Western European integrated transport systems, and they do get more people using public transport, the car is still the major mode.

* https://www.statista.com/statistics...t-used-to-commute-to-work-in-the-netherlands/

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jan 2023 ==

Indeed. And there is no obligation on the developer to do anything about upgrading the roads to cope with the extra congestion they have caused.

Often this is indeed required as part of "planning gain". Councils can stipulate that certain things are paid for as a condition of getting permission for a development. Usually it includes funding a bus service, but often it involves roads (and other things like doctor's surgeries and schools) too.

 

[Thirteen]

People underestimate the benefits of good transport links for building up areas and developers will pay for new stations or extensions if it means they can get more homes built.

 

[bramling]

Certainly that was true in the beginning. They were almost exclusively at the roadside. But they've expanded hugely in town centres in recent years and new ones seem deliberately next to rail stations. I wonder if they now regret that strategy!

Travelodge was certainly running a strategy of planting them next to stations. One was even planned for Stevenage. I always thought it was a rather odd strategy - who on earth would want to stay in a Stevenage Travelodge then travel by train into London? I presume this strategy will now have been revisited!

I don’t really get who would stay in a Premier Inn smack bang in Hitchin town centre either, but people seem to.

 

[Thirteen]

Travelodge was certainly running a strategy of planting them next to stations. One was even planned for Stevenage. I always thought it was a rather odd strategy - who on earth would want to stay in a Stevenage Travelodge then travel by train into London? I presume this strategy will now have been revisited!

I don’t really get who would stay in a Premier Inn smack bang in Hitchin town centre either, but people seem to.

I would guess perhaps someone who has an early train to catch? Ibis has a hotel next to Cambridge Station which my family stayed at when my brother graduated last year and very handy it was as you could easily get the bus into town and no worries about missing the train.

I don't live too far from Wandsworth and the Premier Inn there is nowhere near Wandsworth Town station and a fair walk from Earlsfield but I assume some people would stay there instead of somewhere closer to Central London.

 

[johncrossley]

So very different then really

No, not very different. The private car is still by far the majority mode of transport in all of Europe. You're talking about shifts of 5-10% here and there.

Even in the Netherlands 65% (in 2019*) of commutes were by car. And "la France aime vraiment la voiture"!

While I'm a great advocate of Western European integrated transport systems, and they do get more people using public transport, the car is still the major mode.

The difference between the UK and much of Europe is mostly confined to urban transport, so local buses/trams/metros. Inter-urban travel (which this thread is mostly about) is generally by car in all countries.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Travelodge was certainly running a strategy of planting them next to stations. One was even planned for Stevenage. I always thought it was a rather odd strategy - who on earth would want to stay in a Stevenage Travelodge then travel by train into London?

Quite a lot of people. Hotels in London are horribly expensive - dormitory towns just outside are an affordable place to stay in comparison. I'd generally go further in (e.g. I believe Croydon can be quite cheap) but it's the same principle. Plus there's a lot of business in Stevenage itself, and them being by the station allows people to arrive by train too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jan 2023 ==

The difference between the UK and much of Europe is mostly confined to urban transport, so local buses/trams/metros. Inter-urban travel (which this thread is mostly about) is generally by car in all countries.

Probably true. While theirs might look slicker, there's not a huge difference between Deutsche Bahn's offering and ours, or between NatEx/Megabus and Flix's far larger European offering.

 

[johncrossley]

Just at the top of my head I can think of Travelodges right next to Woking, East Croydon, Wimbledon, Clapham Junction, Balham, Lewisham, Deptford Bridge and Greenwich stations. There are loads of them.

 

[Thirteen]

It is, yes. The Croydon tram differs from the other systems in that it is priced as a bus journey and largely intended to replace bus journeys (plus get people out of cars of course). TfL have been quite open about that all along.

The hopper fare for the bus and Tram I suspect has impacted the revenue for many bus routes within the Croydon area.

 

[johncrossley]

The hopper fare for the bus and Tram I suspect has impacted the revenue for many bus routes within the Croydon area.

And why would anyone even care about the segregation of revenue between buses and trams in an integrated transport system? It's not really an issue. It's obviously not an issue in big cities abroad where you sometimes have more trams than buses. It is only an issue in areas where they have deregulated buses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And why would anyone even care about the segregation of revenue between buses and trams in an integrated transport system? It's not really an issue. It's obviously not an issue in big cities abroad where you sometimes have more trams than buses. It is only an issue in areas where they have deregulated buses.

Exactly. What it'll have done is grown the public transport market, and that's what TfL wants.

 

[johncrossley]

Probably true. While theirs might look slicker, there's not a huge difference between Deutsche Bahn's offering and ours, or between NatEx/Megabus and Flix's far larger European offering.

It is basically because the overall journey time is so much quicker by car in almost all cases where you travel out of a town. The train only has a good chance of competing with the car on journey times if you are travelling city centre to city centre, or to a centre of a huge city like London or Paris.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is basically because the overall journey time is so much quicker by car in almost all cases where you travel out of a town. The train only has a good chance of competing with the car on journey times if you are travelling city centre to city centre, or to a centre of a huge city like London or Paris.

Or if there's a useful park and ride type station. Which is why I think not having an "M25 Handy Cross Parkway" on HS2 is nuts, and why it's not worth building HS2 2B at all unless the Manchester Airport Parkway station is built (Stockport currently fulfils that role).

 

[miklcct]

It is basically because the overall journey time is so much quicker by car in almost all cases where you travel out of a town. The train only has a good chance of competing with the car on journey times if you are travelling city centre to city centre, or to a centre of a huge city like London or Paris.

How about inter-urban travel by bus? For an interurban bus journey to be competitive with the car, I should be able to take a local bus to the motorway entrance, switch to the intercity bus, change if needed on the motorway service station, and get the local bus to the destination as soon as the intercity bus leaves the motorway.

 

[Jimini]

Or if there's a useful park and ride type station. Which is why I think not having an "M25 Handy Cross Parkway" on HS2 is nuts, and why it's not worth building HS2 2B at all unless the Manchester Airport Parkway station is built (Stockport currently fulfils that role).

Handy Cross is at J4 at High Wycombe on the M40?

(Terrible name for a crap roundabout, despite it being named after the nearby hamlet.)

 

[Peter Sarf]

I do sympathise, rows and rows of 1990s suburban boxes designed for the car user, a complete failure of our planning system or just the determination for capitalism to triumph over society that we have suffered for so long in the UK

I do think the nice house in suburbia has a catch.

Or just giving house buyers what they want?

What people want is not always what is good for them but this is a free economy.

Or giving the house buyer what the builder wants… take it or leave it but we know enough people are desperate enough to own a house that we’ll sell this rubbish easily enough, then buy more land to sit on until property prices have risen another 10%.

And as discussed, providing any amenities doesn’t generally happen. Simple things like shops stretch the imagination of the big developers, so hoping that anybody is going to grasp the idea of including public transport in these schemes is always going to lead to disappointment.

Amenities. It does make me wonder how the amenities came into existence in older developments from 100 years ago ?. Does it take 100 years or so for the amenities to get added ?.

I wonder if the tram is partly the reason why many bus routes in Croydon have been removed.

The recent removals from the centre were the cycle lanes but also the closure of North End (most view it as the high street) to pedestrianise it.

It is, yes. The Croydon tram differs from the other systems in that it is priced as a bus journey and largely intended to replace bus journeys (plus get people out of cars of course). TfL have been quite open about that all along.

The main tram route created from scratch was to New Addington which comprises two * very large wards of Croydon that are situated a long way from Croydon town centre and relatively isolated from other boroughs of London. The bus route took forever. The tram route was largely built on undeveloped non-road land with a bit on ex-railway. The centre of Croydon has a lot of street running. The other routes outside Croydon relied on old railway lines. The line to Wimbledon was a dead loss but is now bursting at the seams with passengers. I cannot imagine how people travelled thet kind of route before. But the fares being the same as for buses makes the tram very attractive.

* Fieldway is the other ward in what tends to all be called New Addington.

And then moan about traffic congestion which their collective lifestyle choices have caused. People are very individualistic and don't/won't grasp the bigger picture of actions -> consequences. The UK has more of an American than a European mentality.

No planning there then. All succumb to market forces.

I think this raises an interesting point, as much of the reduction in office space is occurring in out of town or suburban town centre where people tend to drive to work as companies consolidate their office space into city centres.

Therefore you may get situations where a worker previously drove to an office in an out of town office park five time a week but instead now gets a train twice a week to an office in a city centre. In this case, working from home may not be as detrimental to rail use as it may seem.

There are plenty of empty office blocks in Croydon ready to welcome businesses back. Although some/many have been converted to flats.

Travelodge was certainly running a strategy of planting them next to stations. One was even planned for Stevenage. I always thought it was a rather odd strategy - who on earth would want to stay in a Stevenage Travelodge then travel by train into London? I presume this strategy will now have been revisited!

I don’t really get who would stay in a Premier Inn smack bang in Hitchin town centre either, but people seem to.

I am wondering if Stevenage and Hitchen are a destination in themselves. Travellodge do seem to be hoovering up custom from the local B&B or small hotel.

 

[johncrossley]

Or if there's a useful park and ride type station. Which is why I think not having an "M25 Handy Cross Parkway" on HS2 is nuts, and why it's not worth building HS2 2B at all unless the Manchester Airport Parkway station is built (Stockport currently fulfils that role).

They probably don't want a station so close to Old Oak Common. I presume an M25 station has been investigated and modelled. Birmingham Interchange may have park and ride.

HS2 Interchange Station multi-storey car park (MSCP) | Urban Growth Company

www.ugcsolihull.uk

The MSCP proposal is a key component of The Hub and plays an important part in maximising the benefits of HS2 for the region. The proposed MSCP will be located adjacent to the HS2 Interchange Station. It will provide approx. 7,000 car parking spaces and provide convenient access to the HS2 Interchange Station and surrounding area for local people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Handy Cross is at J4 at High Wycombe on the M40?

(Terrible name for a crap roundabout, despite it being named after the nearby hamlet.)

Correct, it's roughly where HS2 crosses the M25.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jan 2023 ==

They probably don't want a station so close to Old Oak Common. I presume an M25 station has been investigated and modelled. Birmingham Interchange may have park and ride.

If it doesn't they want their heads examining, but I believe it will.

 

[Jimini]

Correct, it's roughly where HS2 crosses the M25.

So 12 miles away from Handy Cross then?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So 12 miles away from Handy Cross then?

You can call it Bob if you like, the point is that an M25/M40 Parkway would have made people from the car-dependent Home Counties more likely to park up and use HS2 rather than drive all the way. I get their justification for not so doing, but I think it was wrong. If it was that or Old Oak, an M25 station would have had more value.

Without it you simply aren't going to get people from the Home Counties taking the train south to go north in huge numbers. They will simply drive all the way to Birmingham or Manchester, or maybe use Chiltern or the residual Avanti service from MKC.

Edit: I think I may well have got it wrong and it's actually Maple Cross, not Handy Cross, I was confusing the two. The point of course still stands.

 

[johncrossley]

How about inter-urban travel by bus? For an interurban bus journey to be competitive with the car, I should be able to take a local bus to the motorway entrance, switch to the intercity bus, change if needed on the motorway service station, and get the local bus to the destination as soon as the intercity bus leaves the motorway.

It is obvious that inter-urban travel by bus can never be as quick as the same journey by car unless there is congestion and buses can bypass the traffic in bus lanes.

 

[furnessvale]

What is outrageous is that train companies are still recommending that passengers book ahead. For example on the LNER website now, "Plan further ahead with tickets on sale up to 16 April". That's just wrong when strike action is likely to happen during that period. They should be recommending that people should try and find alternatives, for example car, plane or coach, because of the risk of strike action.

My son used to use trains regularly for weekends away with his son at various locations. With the first strikes he was forced to find an alternative.

He booked a coach and found it cleaner, cheaper, air conditioned. He has never used the train since and probably never will again.

Just sayin'

 

[The Ham]

Well, quite. Most people actually want to live in safe, leafy suburbia and use their car easily. Most people don't want to live in a tight packed urban area and not be able to use one.

There are reasons we can't necessarily give everyone what they want, but that's slightly separate.

I would suggest that:

Whilst most, not everyone likes to live like that.

Likewise, cars are something that a lot of people use rather than enjoy.

People use cars more than is necessary because of their high up front costs and low cost per mile for any additional travel. For example taking kids to school before then going home, even though the time saving isn't very much - yes people do this, no they don't only do this when it's cold and wet.

It should be possible to create the stort of things which people want from suburbia whilst still creating higher density housing. For example the use of roof gardens (which may provide more privacy than a garden behind a detached house on an estate as there would be no overlooking windows).

 

[philosopher]

It should be possible to create the stort of things which people want from suburbia whilst still creating higher density housing. For example the use of roof gardens (which may provide more privacy than a garden behind a detached house on an estate as there would be no overlooking windows).

I have always thought terraced houses are quite a good compromise between providing relatively high density housing and a fairly leafy area to live in with suitable provision for parking.

With terraces, residents can still have a reasonable sized and somewhat private garden at the back and for larger families, additional space can be provided by adding a third or even fourth floor to the house. There would also be sufficient space for a parking space in front of each house, but probably not more.

 

[GoneSouth]

How about inter-urban travel by bus? For an interurban bus journey to be competitive with the car, I should be able to take a local bus to the motorway entrance, switch to the intercity bus, change if needed on the motorway service station, and get the local bus to the destination as soon as the intercity bus leaves the motorway.

The reality is somewhat different of course

Sporadic timetables, infrequent journey options, painfully slow journey times, prices on NX often close to rail, dumping people at a lay-by with no connecting bus service available, traffic congestion causing delays, feels more like a prison bus when you put the seatbelt on… I could go on.

Although I’m not a fan, journeys to London are just about tolerable as they’re generally end to end non stop, or just a limited number of stops at the start of the journey. I’ll use them in an emergency