London Euston - late advertising of services

[londonmidland]

I’m currently on the 14:45 LNR service from London Euston to Crewe - this service was advertised and announced no less than two minutes prior to departure, at 14:43.

Luckily for me and a few other people who ‘know’ the tricks, we were already waiting on the right platform for the train.

Although for people waiting on the concourse, is three minutes sufficient time to get to the train and board? (Train left at 14:46) From what I heard, there were still passengers coming down the ramp but subsequently missed the train as the platform dispatcher told them to stand back.

 

[ALEMASTER]

I can understand why at such terminal stations the platforms aren't advertised until the train has been prepared (cleaning, tanking etc) and the staff are on board ready, however opening boarding that close to departure time and dispatching the train without giving the passengers chance to get on really is unacceptable!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Euston situation is a disgrace and there is no need whatsoever for it. Perhaps it will take someone with a disability being hurt for a legal case to be brought to stop it?

 

[Horizon22]

Euston is unique in this regard, and I hear it is became the comms between station staff, platform staff, crew (of multiple TOCs) and station control is fairly abysmal. Most other inter-city London terminals manage just fine.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Euston is unique in this regard, and I hear it is became the comms between station staff, platform staff, crew (of multiple TOCs) and station control is fairly abysmal. Most other inter-city London terminals manage just fine.

It really isn't. Marylebone is a smaller version of the same nonsense, and Paddington is little better.

Bring the train in, tip it out, lock the doors then call it. People can then wander down and queue by the doors when they are ready, spreading out as necessary. Cleaners can access it via the crew doors. Also Euston really needs a single gateline under the old departure board, that would slow the flow a bit and would mean they weren't waiting for an RPI team to board.

 

[Adam Williams]

I think there have been a few threads like this about Euston/other London termini and the rush to the platforms when services are announced. It's completely unnecessary IMO, but gateline staff seem to get a kick out of being "in control" and denying passengers access to board or simply stand outside the train.

 

[Horizon22]

It really isn't. Marylebone is a smaller version of the same nonsense, and Paddington is little better.

From my experience it is better elsewhere, often substantially so. Euston comes up on here a lot, and I never or very rarely see any other station mentioned. It relies on comms of trains to be "handed over" and of course any late running means it gets close to departure time. Also if the inward train is quite busy, that delays the prep and clean further, especially if there's a restock.

You could argue for longer turnarounds, but that requires timetable changes and from an operational planning point of view, there's no issue

 

[hkstudent]

And I guess any compalints made to Network Rail or LNR will likely be disregarded and binned claiming the train being on time?

 

[Bletchleyite]

From my experience it is better elsewhere, often substantially so. Euston comes up on here a lot, and I never or very rarely see any other station mentioned. It relies on comms of trains to be "handed over" and of course any late running means it gets close to departure time. Also if the inward train is quite busy, that delays the prep and clean further, especially if there's a restock.

You could argue for longer turnarounds, but that requires timetable changes and from an operational planning point of view, there's no issue

Prep and clean can take place with passengers on the platform and the passenger doors locked. Pretty much every non London IC station manages that.

Euston is definitely worst (e.g. at KX it is slightly mitigated by it being easier to get a last minute reservation) but the method of operation doesn't work well anywhere and has not been necessary since the day central locking was fitted to trains.

 

[ALEMASTER]

Prep and clean can take place with passengers on the platform and the passenger doors locked. Pretty much every non London IC station manages that.

Euston is definitely worst (e.g. at KX it is slightly mitigated by it being easier to get a last minute reservation) but the method of operation doesn't work well anywhere and has not been necessary since the day central locking was fitted to trains.

It depends on what the clean and prep involves.

With some Intercity trains for example in the past it involved having hose pipes out to tank the train and catering supply trucks and bin trucks driving up the platform, all of which cannot be done with the public on the platform. I'm not sure whether that is the case still these days!

Incidentally horrible experience with LNER at Kings Cross last month - got there about half an hour before departure, waiting passengers kettled on a packed concourse, then when they called the platform for boarding another train was just arriving onto the same island platform so the crowds heading to the train got stuck with a huge crowd coming off the train queuing to get out the barriers.

 

[jagardner1984]

From my experience it is better elsewhere, often substantially so. Euston comes up on here a lot, and I never or very rarely see any other station mentioned. It relies on comms of trains to be "handed over" and of course any late running means it gets close to departure time. Also if the inward train is quite busy, that delays the prep and clean further, especially if there's a restock.

You could argue for longer turnarounds, but that requires timetable changes and from an operational planning point of view, there's no issue

It occurred to me on a recent airport visit whereby departing passengers and arriving passengers are separated completely, that there is perhaps a missed opportunity at Euston given the comparative heights of the concourse and platforms, to essentially take passengers away from trains without them conflicting with passengers trying to board them.

Presumably extending cleaning times could be resolved by adding more cleaning resource, so a larger squad of cleaners blitz a train in a shorter time. Also wonder whether travelling cleaners on the south WCML would help the trains arrive in less of a state, though this obviously presents problems when full and standing ....

 

[Horizon22]

Prep and clean can take place with passengers on the platform and the passenger doors locked. Pretty much every non London IC station manages that.

Euston is definitely worst (e.g. at KX it is slightly mitigated by it being easier to get a last minute reservation) but the method of operation doesn't work well anywhere and has not been necessary since the day central locking was fitted to trains.

We've been through this before I feel, but this can cause its own issues in terms of getting trollies and carts down the platform, reduced space on (some) platforms and a general principle to have people wait in an area with more information on it. As well as - rightly or wrongly - TOC and NR preferences. I don't think we'll agree but it's not just done for the hell of it and I'd say works fine (Euston excepted!) when the service is running normally and for the majority of the time.

I think it is a comms thing to be quite honest as I know it is much more slick elsewhere but has probably been shoved into a "too much hassle to solve" and or "didn't really thing it was a problem", passengers have just accepted it as "normal" so nobody makes a fuss or all of the above and it is being actively ignored by management.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It depends on what the clean and prep involves.

With some Intercity trains for example in the past it involved having hose pipes out to tank the train and catering supply trucks and bin trucks driving up the platform, all of which cannot be done with the public on the platform. I'm not sure whether that is the case still these days!

Incidentally horrible experience with LNER at Kings Cross last month - got there about half an hour before departure, waiting passengers kettled on a packed concourse, then when they called the platform for boarding another train was just arriving onto the same island platform so the crowds heading to the train got stuck with a huge crowd coming off the train queuing to get out the barriers.

I've noticed that at Paddington, it is just poor management and potentially dangerous. It is like a giant game of Bulldog.

 

[Horizon22]

I've noticed that at Paddington, it is just poor management and potentially dangerous. It is like a giant game of Bulldog.

It's probably better to have people on the concouse than some of Paddington's crowded island platforms as an arrival turns up on the adajcent platform. Delays will also introduce some unavoidable crowding.

 

[sammyg901]

I was at Marylebone one night a few months ago and the train was never advertised. A fellow passenger went to tell the driver and me and another guy ran back to the concourse and informed those waiting and we departed a couple of minutes late.

There are some trains that are scheduled out from the same platform a few minutes after eachother which means that the later train is advertised very late as there is no "a/b" concept with the platforms or similar. The 1730 is one of these, there is a flight of trains leaving from 1710 so the 1721 is often late leaving. They only advertise the 1730 once it's gone, sometimes for less than 5 mins

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's probably better to have people on the concouse than some of Paddington's crowded island platforms as an arrival turns up on the adajcent platform. Delays will also introduce some unavoidable crowding.

I was actually specifically referring to the situation where they hold off calling a train, then call it just as an arrival tips out on the adjacent platform. I've had it several times at Paddington and it is incredibly bad.

In the end this is down to the wrong priorities of the railway. Safety and a quality passenger experience should receive equal priority, with operational convenience just below the two. By this I mean that if something is safe and is a bad passenger experience, then you need to find an equally safe but better for the passenger way to do it even if that impacts operational convenience. Obviously if it's unsafe it needs resolving (and it's my view that the "Euston scrum" is unsafe for the elderly, infirm and disabled).

But this is the railway, and the railway, as a whole, dislikes passengers.

There are some trains that are scheduled out from the same platform a few minutes after eachother which means that the later train is advertised very late as there is no "a/b" concept with the platforms or similar. The 1730 is one of these, there is a flight of trains leaving from 1710 so the 1721 is often late leaving. They only advertise the 1730 once it's gone, sometimes for less than 5 mins

Plenty of stations have managed to cope with that. Manchester Piccadilly often had three trains in 14 when it was worked permissively. "The front train", "the middle train" and "the back train" worked fine - the PIS couldn't handle it but that wouldn't be hard to fix. It's even been done at Euston, there are a couple of portable signs still knocking around saying "front train beyond this point" they used to put next to them.

 

[Horizon22]

I was actually specifically referring to the situation where they hold off calling a train, then call it just as an arrival tips out on the adjacent platform. I've had it several times at Paddington and it is incredibly bad.

In the end this is down to the wrong priorities of the railway. Safety and a quality passenger experience should receive equal priority, with operational convenience just below the two. By this I mean that if something is safe and is a bad passenger experience, then you need to find an equally safe but better for the passenger way to do it even if that impacts operational convenience.

But this is the railway, and the railway, as a whole, dislikes passengers.

Ah right, sorry I misunderstood. Yes that is bad, and requires a bit of proactive thought. Although again, the result should be stronger comms between control and the staff on the ground but a lot of the time I gather management simply do not know how it works.

I do disagree though - safety will always trump passenger experience. Trains will get cancelled for safety reasons even if its a rubbish passenger experience as just one example! Also operational convenience often equates in a roundabout method to "less delays" which will ultimately help a passenger. If you were to ask someone "would you rather you had to rush for your train but it left on time or you were able to go at a normal pace to the platform but it left 5 minutes late and may get later?" you'd probably get a mixed response.

 

[WizCastro197]

Victoria seems to suffer from this problem as well, especially when there are two uncoupled services departing at similar times, 'know the tricks' doesn't apply for Victoria that much anymore especially for Reigate services as they are dotted around different parts of the station.

 

[hkstudent]

I was actually specifically referring to the situation where they hold off calling a train, then call it just as an arrival tips out on the adjacent platform. I've had it several times at Paddington and it is incredibly bad.

In the end this is down to the wrong priorities of the railway. Safety and a quality passenger experience should receive equal priority, with operational convenience just below the two. By this I mean that if something is safe and is a bad passenger experience, then you need to find an equally safe but better for the passenger way to do it even if that impacts operational convenience. Obviously if it's unsafe it needs resolving (and it's my view that the "Euston scrum" is unsafe for the elderly, infirm and disabled).

But this is the railway, and the railway, as a whole, dislikes passengers.



Plenty of stations have managed to cope with that. Manchester Piccadilly often had three trains in 14 when it was worked permissively. "The front train", "the middle train" and "the back train" worked fine - the PIS couldn't handle it but that wouldn't be hard to fix. It's even been done at Euston, there are a couple of portable signs still knocking around saying "front train beyond this point" they used to put next to them.

Cause passengers make railway "inefficient "

 

[Bletchleyite]

Victoria seems to suffer from this problem as well, especially when there are two uncoupled services departing at similar times, 'know the tricks' doesn't apply for Victoria that much anymore especially for Reigate services as they are dotted around different parts of the station.

I also find that Realtime Trains isn't, or wasn't, 100% accurate for Victoria. But yes, it's a problem there too, and there's really no need for it as commuter trains are generally not serviced on every trip.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cause passengers make railway "inefficient "

Passengers also pay a fair chunk of the cost of the railway, so their needs should be a far higher priority than they are. They're also mostly taxpayers too, who fund the other chunk.

Back to Euston, I think it (and Paddington) would be made better if you could get a reservation close to departure from your phone or a TVM like you can on LNER. That means fewer people jostling for the seats. I suspect it's one reason why KX is not quite as bad - no need to rush if you know you've got a seat already.

Meanwhile commuter stations like Marylebone and Victoria where there are no trains with reservations should simply pack it in. Other large termini like Manchester Pic and Liverpool Lime St manage without it.

 

[duncanp]

Prep and clean can take place with passengers on the platform and the passenger doors locked. Pretty much every non London IC station manages that.

This is what happens at Birmingham New Street.

When you get down on to the platform the train, if starting its journey there, is usually locked, but with staff on board doing whatever preparation is required.

If they advertised the platform only 2 minutes before departure, then only people like Usain Bolt would actually manage to board the train on time.

Having said that, I was waiting for a through running service from Wolverhampton to London once, and there was a last minute platform change 1 minute before it was due to arrive. They did hold the train in order to give people a chance of making it, but one wheelchair user who couldn't make it in time was allowed on to the next train 20 minutes later at no extra charge.

Yes, I remember the days when Avanti ran trains every 20 minutes between Birmingham and London.

Travelling from Euston to Birmingham, I have experience of the late advertising of platforms, not helped by the Avanti ticket examiners insisting on doing a full ticket check before boarding.

If you get stuck behind someone who has a problem with their ticket, it can quickly cause a queue to back up. If you wave your ticket and try and squeeze past, you get a right old rollicking.

 

[WizCastro197]

I also find that Realtime Trains isn't, or wasn't, 100% accurate for Victoria. But yes, it's a problem there too, and there's really no need for it as commuter trains are generally not serviced on every trip.

Realtime trains often isn't accurate for Victoria as you mention, basing off the vast amount of platform numbers that appear in red on the site. Also not great, as a large influx of passengers often appears very quickly, I can also imagine the same at Euston.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you get stuck behind someone who has a problem with their ticket, it can quickly cause a queue to back up. If you wave your ticket and try and squeeze past, you get a right old rollicking

They're not the finest of staff. The potential to get rid of most of them (and to be able to avoid the ones who remain) is one reason I advocate a full gateline at Euston.

Realtime trains often isn't accurate for Victoria as you mention, basing off the vast amount of platform numbers that appear in red on the site. Also not great, as a large influx of passengers often appears very quickly, I can also imagine the same at Euston.

It's pretty reliable at Euston because the platforming is close to 100% consistent. Many commuters just know their platform. It wasn't hard to do it with a combination of that and a quick check of the arrivals before RTT was even a thing.

 

[Horizon22]

They're not the finest of staff. The potential to get rid of most of them (and to be able to avoid the ones who remain) is one reason I advocate a full gateline at Euston.



It's pretty reliable at Euston because the platforming is close to 100% consistent. Many commuters just know their platform. It wasn't hard to do it with a combination of that and a quick check of the arrivals before RTT was even a thing.

I think this also doesn't help the overall Euston problem. Paddington gateline people can be unhelpful - and often just wrong - but on the other hand they will try and pop the gates open if they can see a crowd apporoaching.

 

[duncanp]

They're not the finest of staff. The potential to get rid of most of them (and to be able to avoid the ones who remain) is one reason I advocate a full gateline at Euston.



It's pretty reliable at Euston because the platforming is close to 100% consistent. Many commuters just know their platform. It wasn't hard to do it with a combination of that and a quick check of the arrivals before RTT was even a thing.

Platforms 1 - 3 at Euston have a gateline, so why not the rest of the platforms that Avanti use?

 

[FOH]

I see this departed from P13 and on P14 a AWC service departed at 1442. Could that be the reason?

 

[Huntergreed]

I see this departed from P13 and on P14 a AWC service departed at 1442. Could that be the reason?

Very likely, as Avanti won’t allow anyone without a ticket for their service onto the platform as they do manual checks.

It’s still not right! I understand the purpose is to save the TM workload onboard by only having to check first and premium for any chancers, but if this is making it impossible to board other trains, that isn’t acceptable.

The same now happens with Avanti at Glasgow Central. Metal railings prevent customers accessing the platform until the train is “ready” then it’s a complete free for all, often with 5 or less minutes to go.

Although it’s supposed to ensure ticket checks take place prior to boarding, they rarely do. Keeping passengers waiting (often in a stupidly large queue which snakes around the concourse) just seems pointless and counterproductive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Platforms 1 - 3 at Euston have a gateline, so why not the rest of the platforms that Avanti use?

4-7 and 12-15 were supposed to be being gated then it stopped, but I think a single very long gateline for the whole station would be better. Under the old departure board would work. That way capacity would be maximised, and it'd also help manage flow a bit if you had one end normally for in and one end for out (I'd suggest out on the left facing it and in on the right facing it, as most people enter via that door, and getting the crowds headed for the Tube to go round would help flow there too).

The argument used to be that there's retail in the tunnel, but there's not as much as there was, and the HEMA unit (empty) could be opened out to provide a non-gated route to the toilets (or maybe they'd be better off inside to reduce vandalism and other social issues).

 

[duncanp]

Very likely, as Avanti won’t allow anyone without a ticket for their service onto the platform as they do manual checks.

It’s still not right! I understand the purpose is to save the TM workload onboard by only having to check first and premium for any chancers, but if this is making it impossible to board other trains, that isn’t acceptable.

Yes, let's save the Train Manager some workload, and who cares about the plebs who want to get on another TOCs train on the adjacent platform, and whether they miss it or not.

Someone needs to remind Avanti that the railway is run for the benefit of the passenger, whose needs should take priority.