London Euston - late advertising of services

[Tezza1978]

Euston is the only place where I’ve had an issue with a member of railway staff (or a colleague you might say) I strolled down the platform in good time as I’d saw on various sites what platform the train was going off, I’d been spotted unfortunately by a member of a revenue protection who was at the top and then proceed to shout and chase after me. Trust me, I wish I was joking about this. They asked what I was doing here, and just explained I know this is my train and jokingly I do this for a living too, so I’m extremely sure it’s my train, and I’ve got a valid ticket. The member of revenue protection then berated and told me I had no business being here, and told me to go back up to the top. I said not a problem, I wasn’t getting into an argument that’s not my style, but if you’re going to ask me to walk back up then you’ll have to ask everyone else who’s on the train to as well, they just laughed said no and marched me back up. I don’t expect preferential treatment at all being a member of staff over a passenger, my Priv is benefit enough for me.

What concerned me was if this member of staff was more than happy to speak to a member of railway staff, ie: a colleague even for all they knew? Then I was really concerned at how they treated passengers.

I'm not rail staff but have had more or less exactly the same issue at Euston a few months ago - posted about it before on here. Was literally screamed at by a member of staff to go back up the slope after their colleague had openly lied and said "this isnt your train - its going to Manchester". After being screamed at...several of the person's colleagues were all sniggering in the background. Pathetic and deeply unprofessional - made a formal complaint.

 

[furlong]

Surely the if the departure platform is put on the main destination board(s) within the minimum time for an interchange at the station, all those passengers would automatically qualify for delay repay, or even a full refund if the next train to the passenger's destination would arrive there more than an hour later.

It should be the other way around, that a train cannot depart until the minimum interchange time number of minutes have elapsed since its platform was announced, with minutes added on to the penalties when this happens, as adding avoidable extra delay to an already delayed situation by failing to tell passengers where to go in time. Might focus some minds to (a) reduce some of the minimum times that are bigger than they need to be and (b) to introduce more lower minimum connection times between parts of stations when people were directed to queueing or waiting zones near to where they needed to be.

 

[AM9]

It should be the other way around, that a train cannot depart until the minimum interchange time number of minutes have elapsed since its platform was announced, with minutes added on to the penalties when this happens, as adding avoidable extra delay to an already delayed situation by failing to tell passengers where to go in time. Might focus some minds to (a) reduce some of the minimum times that are bigger than they need to be and (b) to introduce more lower minimum connection times between parts of stations when people were directed to queueing or waiting zones near to where they needed to be.

Yes, I agree that trains shouldn't depart before that time had elapsed from their platform announcement but accept that there might be operational issues extending platform occupation times at busy terminals. My comment was in respect of a claim made under current DR rules.
Whilst, I suspect that a majority of RUK members here might make use of RTT, OTT or other applications that use industry provided real time data, to anticipate departure platforms, in no way should fare paying passengers be obliged to do that as a condition of a claim for DR in the event of their journey being extended past the current payment thresholds.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not rail staff but have had more or less exactly the same issue at Euston a few months ago - posted about it before on here. Was literally screamed at by a member of staff to go back up the slope after their colleague had openly lied and said "this isnt your train - its going to Manchester". After being screamed at...several of the person's colleagues were all sniggering in the background. Pathetic and deeply unprofessional - made a formal complaint.

The funniest one I've heard, I can't remember if it was on here or Twitter, was them attempting to bark out the driver of a Pendolino in uniform for trying to get past them. Supposedly he said something like "OK, will you let Control know the train is cancelled because you won't let me get to it to drive it?" and they were, for once, speechless and let him past.

They really are awful. Not that gateline staff at other London termini are great - the Victoria ones seem unable to manage much more than a grunt. OTOH some of the LNR staff who do the 8-11 gateline are great, so it doesn't *have* to be bad.

Whilst, I suspect that a majority of RUK members here might make use of RTT, OTT or other applications that use industry provided real time data, to anticipate departure platforms, in no way should fare paying passengers be obliged to do that as a condition of a claim for DR in the event of their journey being extended past the current payment thresholds.

I think the staff would rather RTT went away, but even if it did we'd still be able to do it - we did in the days before RTT - if you know the diagrams you can* just go off the arrivals display and I did it for years. (Though to be fair there doesn't appear to be an arrivals display at Victoria Southern side any more, so perhaps even that door is being closed).

* Mostly. Not for instance for the pre-2010 1823 Northampton which came off Camden Bank, but most trains have at least one portion that comes from elsewhere in service. But that one was always 16 and we knew it anyway, most people went in the side entrance without going near any displays

I'm not rail staff but have had more or less exactly the same issue at Euston a few months ago - posted about it before on here. Was literally screamed at by a member of staff to go back up the slope after their colleague had openly lied and said "this isnt your train - its going to Manchester". After being screamed at...several of the person's colleagues were all sniggering in the background. Pathetic and deeply unprofessional - made a formal complaint.

I've been lied to at Paddington as well. He even tried to get me to move away from the side of the all-red gateline (I wasn't in the way of anything, I was stood to one side by a glass panel). I refused (because I was in a public area and not obstructing anything) and he got sick of it and let me through

 

[RJ]

Euston has been like this for years. It was definitely like that when I worked there 13 years ago, though you didn't get people sprinting down the ramps to to the trains as soon as they are called (as opposed to just late passengers) like you do now, so it's fair to say it has gotten worse over time.

I get to Euston at least 20 minutes before departure time. I cross reference the headcode with the live train map and patiently wait near the gateline for the train to be called so I can get my seat of choice. I have no interest in taking the option of participating in the stampedes. I don't wait on the platform before the train is called because from working there, set swaps aren't that uncommon so waiting near the gateline is a fair compromise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I get to Euston at least 20 minutes before departure time. I cross reference the headcode with the live train map and patiently wait near the gateline for the train to be called so I can get my seat of choice. I have no interest in taking the option of participating in the stampedes. I don't wait on the platform before the train is called because from working there, set swaps aren't that uncommon so waiting near the gateline is a fair compromise.

My general rule is that I won't board a train until it's appeared on the displays, or if I do I'll keep my coat and bag on ready to get off again if needs be. That usually gives you about 30 seconds to pick your seat before the hordes descend. You can see a display from my preferred position right at the back of 8 or 11, or you can use TIGER* to see a copy of it on your phone. For Avanti I'd wait just under the display at the platform entrance, not go onto the platform, knowing that they like to do boarding checks.

* https://tiger.worldline.global/home

 

[Huntergreed]

This is the queue at Glasgow Central (goes back much further than this!) for the 15:58 to Euston. It’s making it more difficult for people to access the toilets and entrance/exit over this side of the station.

We were allowed onboard with around 8 minutes to go and it was a total stampede for seats. There was no ticket check so I have no idea why they deemed it necessary to hold us back. Surely it would have been much better to let people onto the platform to wait outside their respective doors. Much more orderly and sensible boarding process.

 

[RailWonderer]

The gateline culture among Euston staff is toxic. They are a bunch of vindictive lowlifes who like to use the little power they have to keep people back. There are a few good ones who kindly just asked to see my ticket then let me carry on and board the train.

We were allowed onboard with around 8 minutes to go and it was a total stampede for seats. There was no ticket check so I have no idea why they deemed it necessary to hold us back. Surely it would have been much better to let people onto the platform to wait outside their respective doors. Much more orderly and sensible boarding process.

I was given a feeble excuse that they needed time to clean the train. Fair enough but it had been on the platform for 30 minutes. Does it really take that long to clean up?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was given a feeble excuse that they needed time to clean the train. Fair enough but it had been on the platform for 30 minutes. Does it really take that long to clean up?

In any case, lock the doors and clean it, using the crew doors (with a Tensabarrier around them) to enter and exit.

 

[Peter0124]

I'd imagine stations like Manchester Picc have no problem with letting people onto the platforms early, probably because of the higher frequency to London and the footbridge for all platforms being accessable.

 

[nlogax]

This is the queue at Glasgow Central (goes back much further than this!) for the 15:58 to Euston. It’s making it more difficult for people to access the toilets and entrance/exit over this side of the station.

Without wanting to resort to 'eeh everything were better in t'Virgin days' I don't think I ever experienced these queues at GC when VTWC were in charge. Unless I'm having a brainfart?

 

[Huntergreed]

Without wanting to resort to 'eeh everything were better in t'Virgin days' I don't think I ever experienced these queues at GC when VTWC were in charge. Unless I'm having a brainfart?

No, VTWC kept the platform open so you could wander up to the train anytime, unlike AWC who seem obsessed with this queueing malarkey.

I don’t disagree with the “everything was better with VTWC” sentiment!

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, VTWC kept the platform open so you could wander up to the train anytime, unlike AWC who seem obsessed with this queueing malarkey.

I don’t disagree with the “everything was better with VTWC” sentiment!

The boarding checks were introduced by Virgin and they had their reputation back then too.

 

[Huntergreed]

The boarding checks were introduced by Virgin and they had their reputation back then too.

Ah yes, sorry I only meant Glasgow (I don’t think they did it there?)

Euston was just as infamous for it as it is now!

 

[RunRepeat]

It really isn't. Marylebone is a smaller version of the same nonsense, and Paddington is little better.

Bring the train in, tip it out, lock the doors then call it. People can then wander down and queue by the doors when they are ready, spreading out as necessary. Cleaners can access it via the crew doors. Also Euston really needs a single gateline under the old departure board, that would slow the flow a bit and would mean they weren't waiting for an RPI team to board.

Cleaners accessing via crew doors isn't always practicable. The process is very time sensitive depending on the level of clean (dependent on the time allowed for the particular clean), and the equipment required, bags to dispose of etc means this is not a simple as suggested.

 

[simonw]

It is not unknown for the SNCF in France to advertise a train as departing from one platform, and for it to depart from a completely different platform.

The start of Mr Hulot's holiday celebrated this

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cleaners accessing via crew doors isn't always practicable. The process is very time sensitive depending on the level of clean (dependent on the time allowed for the particular clean), and the equipment required, bags to dispose of etc means this is not a simple as suggested.

That's funny, they manage it at Manchester Piccadilly.

The correct answer is to prioritise the passenger experience higher, and change the processes.

It is not unknown for the SNCF in France to advertise a train as departing from one platform, and for it to depart from a completely different platform.

Platform alterations happen everywhere and can't be avoided in every case, the key is timely communication and planning.

(Though I can't help be reminded of being on a night train somewhere in Germany in the late 90s - we came in the wrong platform with our train still showing on the displays on the opposite one - the staff just pointed someone across the track to us, he stepped down, walked across the track and boarded on the offside with no suggestion at all that that was the wrong thing to do...)

 

[FOH]

The gateline culture among Euston staff is toxic. They are a bunch of vindictive lowlifes who like to use the little power they have to keep people back.

It reminds me of the Blackpool North threads. Do perhaps doors give a sense of empowerment and seniority similarly to airport gates that cause staff to behave differently? Genuine thought...

 

[Bletchleyite]

It reminds me of the Blackpool North threads. Do perhaps doors give a sense of empowerment and seniority similarly to airport gates that cause staff to behave differently? Genuine thought...

Spend 5 minutes on Flyertalk (an air travel version of this Forum - there are two main ones - FT more for passengers and PPRuNe more for crews, plus airliners.net as more of a spotter/photter type place) and you'll see plenty of talk of "gate dragons". When you give a metaphorical peaked cap to an insecure low-level employee, you always get this sort of power trip.

 

[RunRepeat]

That's funny, they manage it at Manchester Piccadilly.

The correct answer is to prioritise the passenger experience higher, and change the processes.

The scope and tasks at Man Picc are very different to Euston. The continuous boarding at Man Picc presents challenges as well. The processes can be complex and at Euston at least, are greatly helped by an empty unit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The scope and tasks at Man Picc are very different to Euston. The continuous boarding at Man Picc presents challenges as well. The processes can be complex and at Euston at least, are greatly helped by an empty unit.

This comes down to what's more important - good customer service or operational expediency.

If you think it's always the latter, then hopefully you're not making these decisions.

 

[WAB]

I would be embarrassed to be in charge of Euston and Blackpool North with the disgraceful attitude of many of their staff towards customers. If they were my responsibility, I'd flood them with mystery shoppers and pursue disciplinary action wherever needed.

 

[43066]

When you give a metaphorical peaked cap to an insecure low-level employee, you always get this sort of power trip.

A literal peaked cap in the case of Southeastern revenue staff, which gives quite the wrong impression! I’ve not seen it for a while so perhaps it has been dropped. Thankfully ours don’t wear them.

 

[Kite159]

That is disgraceful that the train was advertised 2 minutes prior to departure but left on time when passengers were making their way towards the train from the concourse.

As for rude gateline staff, there is someone at London Victoria who is quite rude if a ticket doesn't work the barrier or if you want to keep the ticket for delay purposes.

 

[WizCastro197]

That is disgraceful that the train was advertised 2 minutes prior to departure but left on time when passengers were making their way towards the train from the concourse.

As for rude gateline staff, there is someone at London Victoria who is quite rude if a ticket doesn't work the barrier or if you want to keep the ticket for delay purposes.

Someone, thankfully at Victoria, the rest are quite helpful and rather nice. Is there anything stopping the service leaving slightly later on the passenger and operational side of things, rather than just reporting punctuality to DfT?

 

[Urban Gateline]

I see things are much the same as when I worked there a few years ago on Platforms! Hopefully not such silly planning which meant the 0846 and 0849 departures were on the same platform, we could only ever advertise the 0849 for boarding at just after 0846 when the 0846 was pulling away, which was definitely ridiculous.

The boarding of services tends to be as good as the Platform staff are, if things haven't changed then they don't advertise a train until the platform staff radio the control room asking for it to be advertised! I can only speak for LNR though from my experience, not sure how Avanti managed it for their trains.

 

[py_megapixel]

The boarding of services tends to be as good as the Platform staff are, if things haven't changed then they don't advertise a train until the platform staff radio the control room asking for it to be advertised! I can only speak for LNR though from my experience, not sure how Avanti managed it for their trains.

IMO they should just set it to make the first announcement and automatically put the platform up 10 minutes before advertised departure time, regardless of TOC. If the staff want to radio through and get it called earlier (if the cleaning/preparation is finished before then) then great.

 

[Parham Wood]

What amazes me about all these issues is that nothing gets done about it. Very poor management all around including the Dft.

 

[Skie]

I was given a feeble excuse that they needed time to clean the train. Fair enough but it had been on the platform for 30 minutes. Does it really take that long to clean up?

The great irony there is that they have had the "bloke with a binbag" walk the train as it approaches a terminus for years now. And in 1st they clear the tables and sometimes start popping down clean cups and mats in the last 10-15 mins of the journey. The only cleaning done is taking the binbags off and loading fresh supplies.

I think I've only ever seen a messy 390 arrive at Euston once, when a gaggle of us got on before the gateline avengers could assemble their impenetrable defence force. The guy with the binbag was well happy, as we made our carriage take 10 seconds to clear by moving all of the junk to the edge of the tables for him, if not helping him fill the bag directly. I think some Londoners might have just sat there with a table full of empty cans and wrappers, but northerners will chip in to clear up.

 

[zwk500]

IMO they should just set it to make the first announcement and automatically put the platform up 10 minutes before advertised departure time, regardless of TOC. If the staff want to radio through and get it called earlier (if the cleaning/preparation is finished before then) then great.

How does this solve the already identified problem of bad comms?

LNR and Overground services should be advertised as soon as they go up on the board unless there's a good reason not to. GTR clean their units with customers boarding at Victoria, that's fine for LNRs to Northampton and Birmingham, maybe even the Crewe services unless it's super busy. If a driver wants to lock the train up, then hold the platform until it's locked, but as soon as it is locked get the platform up on the board so people can start queuing along the full length of the platform.
Then it's only Avanti, which will be less of a problem as there's not so many people to fight through on the concourse waiting for LNRs. You could also manage it a bit better by cleaning and then boarding First Class only before the platform is advertised. Cleaning crew tell despatcher, who asks station control to tell the 1st class lounge, etc. Maybe a PA announcement as well. Ticket checkers already in place to manage eager standard passengers.

Are a lot of Euston station staff agency? I wonder if the attitude is more to do with them being roped in last minute rather than full-time Euston people. Maybe not and I'm being massively judgemental for no reason.

I think some Londoners might have just sat there with a table full of empty cans and wrappers, but northerners will chip in to clear up.

Be careful making sweeping generalisations like that. 'The North' and 'London' are big and diverse places. I've been on trains in Leeds where nobody had a second thought about the people clearing up after them, and trains in London where people took other's rubbish with them off the train to put in the platform bins.