New offer made to RMT by Rail Delivery Group

[matthewjohnson]

As a passenger can I safely assume that this is going to get kicked into touch then?

 

[Ridercross]

On the modern era I would expect announcements and/or online information to be available, rather than have to go to a ticket window to ask about a delay.

Yes, you would expect that to be the case, but as my frequent experiences of travelling reveal that no such information is given. Online and auto announcements seem to just say "Delayed" or the expected time gets pushed back by a minute at a time.

Staff on site can normally at least try to contact Control to find out what is happening.

 

[Annetts key]

Are you suggesting that safety will be compromised and if so, do you have evidence that the move from more labour intensive methods of maintenance towards more modern methods actually compromises safety?

This is a bit off topic really…
But a quick answer: if the new system of maintenance results in more failures, then that means more unplanned interventions by staff (which is considered a higher risk compared to planned maintenance). And/or manual working without the extra safeguards of the normal technical systems that have been designed to reduce the risks, hence a greater likelihood of human error.

 

[yorkie]

Yes, you would expect that to be the case, but as my frequent experiences of travelling reveal that no such information is given. Online and auto announcements seem to just say "Delayed" or the expected time gets pushed back by a minute at a time.

But if there is nothing on any online source , how likely is it they station staff know?

Staff on site can normally at least try to contact Control to find out what is happening.

I don't think I've found a situation where station staff have been able to provide more information than online sources; certainly not that I can recall in recent memory and since various open data sites, plus Journey check etc became available .

I have been told trains won't be taking diversionary routes when they did, or that a train wasn't running when it was. But more accurate information? I don't think so.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2023 ==

This is a bit off topic really…
But a quick answer: if the new system of maintenance results in more failures, then that means more unplanned interventions by staff (which is considered a higher risk compared to planned maintenance). And/or manual working without the extra safeguards of the normal technical systems that have been designed to reduce the risks, hence a greater likelihood of human error.

Is there any evidence this is going to happen though?

There seems to be a lot of theoretical posts about what might happen, but can some substance be provided to these claims?

 

[Annetts key]

As for the idea that you can counter inflation by inflating wages by the same amount, that's fanciful but has been debunked in other threads previously.

And where exactly did I say anything like this in this topic? If you want to discuss this subject, would it be best to do so in the other topics?

 

[yorkie]

And where exactly did I say anything like this in this topic? If you want to discuss this subject, would it be best to do so in the other topics?

You said:

Someone mentioned inflation. The inflation rate that gets banded about is just the rate of change. And that is typically a figure for the last 12 months. Even if inflation dropped to zero, it does not mean that prices go back down, or that the cost of living is no longer a problem. So regardless of the current headline inflation figure, employees are still going to be wanting a pay rise so that they are not getting poorer compared to the increase in the cost of living that has already occurred.

 

[Annetts key]

There seems to be a lot of theoretical posts about what might happen, but can some substance be provided to these claims?

Strangely enough, when the RMT asks for more detailed information on the plans for the railways, so that we can try to work out the possibilities in the future, not much in terms of substantial information is provided.

Any change may result in different outcomes. Unfortunately no one really knows until sometime after the change. Whereas, we do know how the current system works.

 

[brad465]

The RMT are not recommending that offer to their members.

So are they putting it to a vote with a recommended rejection, or outright rejecting it?

 

[Wyrleybart]

There is this part, plus the bullet point regarding station grades aligning. For those on the lowest grades, how would they be compensated for becoming multi functional + being made to cover various stations? It’s all very vague.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2023 ==

Making staff use leave entitlement if they are ‘rostered’ in on Christmas Day and Boxing Day is needlessly petty.

But has been like it for decades. I moved from EWS to VXC in 2001 and had to keep my leave allowance for Christmas day and Boxing day.

 

[Scott1]

Do we know of any locations where there are plans for facilities to be removed or is this just a theoretical position?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2023 ==

It's what happened last time they made redundancies, and I don't see how else it would deliver savings? Most stations on my area, bar the largest, only have 1 staff member covering the station and ticket desk. Without them how could you keep the facilities?

 

[InkyScrolls]

I've said it before and it never ceases to be true: Mankind is the only species which goes out of its way to make itself unnecessary.

I for one believe it's worth having manned stations, trains, banks, post offices, etc., purely to maintain a) human contact, and b) employment. But no, we (as a species) must always strive for further automation, further reduction in costs at the expense of real, living humans.

Madness.

 

[Annetts key]

You said:

I said that employees are still going to be asking. I did not say that you can counter inflation. This government and Bank of England can’t really counter inflation caused by causes outside the country, such as the inflation caused by the rise of fossil fuels such as gas.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2023 ==

So are they putting it to a vote with a recommended rejection, or outright rejecting it?

As far as I know, a decision has not yet been made.

 

[jon0844]

So are they putting it to a vote with a recommended rejection, or outright rejecting it?

They'll decide/debate over the weekend and say next week.

 

[Annetts key]

I've said it before and it never ceases to be true: Mankind is the only species which goes out of its way to make itself unnecessary.

I for one believe it's worth having manned stations, trains, banks, post offices, etc., purely to maintain a) human contact, and b) employment. But no, we (as a species) must always strive for further automation, further reduction in costs at the expense of real, living humans.

Madness.

Agreed. The purpose of new technology is supposed to be to make our lives easier. Not to increase the number of people struggling to survive.

 

[dk1]

The RMT are not recommending that offer to their members.

I’d be shocked if they did mate.

 

[Snow1964]

Do you have a source for this? The last I heard is that railway staff can opt out of compulsory Sunday working if they wish.

The normal approach is only applies to existing staff, not new joiners.

However most employees periodically accept a change of conditions (which is why promotions are always offered, never mandatory), and if you want the promotion have to accept revised job spec and conditions that go with it.

 

[Bill57p9]

Who's to say mileage would be paid?

If they're talking about teams who cover multi locations as standard then it may not be that people even have a home location?

And it still doesn't cover what would happen to the large number of workers who don't have their own car. Some also cycle, walk, get lifts or get the train. I don't see how they could be treated differently to someone with a car either.

This isn't an emerging challenge.
There are plenty of industries where employees are expected to make their way to different sites HOWEVER this is NOT commuting and needs to be funded (both in terms of travel time AND expense).
45p per mile is fairly typical for using your own private car where public transport isn't reasonable. This is intended to cover all running costs including fuel, wear and tear and (business class) insurance.
And for someone without a usual place of work, "home as base" is appropriate.

 

[Sleepy]

Pretty sure this offer will go to a vote. No news on NWR yet. So unless ASLEF and RMT driver grades call further strikes so soon after the ones that are already pencilled in then you should be good.

Network Rail latest offer imminently due is rehash of the referendum rejected one I'm reliability told .... Hopefully they'll go away and improve it ?

 

[Harbon 1]

Are you suggesting that safety will be compromised and if so, do you have evidence that the move from more labour intensive methods of maintenance towards more modern methods actually compromises safety?

Having not enough staff to provide a lookout and therefore not being able to visually inspect each track, and instead looking across from the cess, was one of the factors leading to the Hatfield derailment. They couldn't see the cracking from across another line. Then there was the overstretched supervisor doing extra inspections to cover for a lack of maintenance staff, and didn't inspect the whole of the extra area he'd agreed to, so missed the points that caused the Greyrigg derailment. That was while the NMT was running but even NR stated that kind of defect would only be picked up after weeks and weeks of trawling through the pictures it took on its cycle. So even the less labour intensive method didn't help there.

There was a thread on this forum about how we were running on borrowed time before another major accident with the increase of near misses, and then we had Carmont. Why would removing maintenance staff make the railway safer when recent history has shown that stretching them too thin causes accidents?

Is there any evidence that this will no longer be offered?

Is there any evidence that it still will be? After all, they want to cut staff numbers. They'll just put taxis on.

Can you elaborate on this? Do you have examples of where bag carrying has been offered and discontinued?

I've seen plenty of staff help less abled passengers to their train when they have bags with them. Can a member of staff offer to help someone to their train if they aren't there at all?

On the modern era I would expect announcements and/or online information to be available, rather than have to go to a ticket window to ask about a delay.

Ticket window? No thats where the tickets are sold. This is the station office, or whatever the sign on the door says, we have on the platform. Guy comes out to dispatch trains, can ask him questions and stuff. Although who needs any more information than "this train is delayed". Who needs someone who could check on an incident log as to whether something has been sorted or not, or tell passengers that replacemnt buses/a fleet of taxis are being sourced. Anyway, what is confusing about modern announcements like "The 09:21 service to Nottingham has been cancelled, the next train to arrive on platform 1 will be the 09:21 servcie to Nottingham". Good job he made a manual anouncement afterwards to clear it up.

I'm not convinced that closing ticket windows is going to result in a poorer experience; has that happened for London Underground?

Well, good thing we simply tap in and tap out at every station in the country then, and there aren't multiple available fares available for one journey.

Do we know of any locations where there are plans for facilities to be removed or is this just a theoretical position?

After the ticket office staff have been dispensed with, and that hasn't saved them enough cash, whats betting physical facilities are next? Once you let the cost cutting begin, it won't stop.

 

[yorkie]

I've said it before and it never ceases to be true: Mankind is the only species which goes out of its way to make itself unnecessary.

I for one believe it's worth having manned stations, trains, banks, post offices, etc., purely to maintain a) human contact, and b) employment. But no, we (as a species) must always strive for further automation, further reduction in costs at the expense of real, living humans.

Madness.

So we would all have been better off living 60 years ago?

I said that employees are still going to be asking. I did not say that you can counter inflation. This government and Bank of England can’t really counter inflation caused by causes outside the country, such as the inflation caused by the rise of fossil fuels such as gas.
.

They can ask but they won't get; it's a fallacy.

Having not enough staff to provide a lookout and therefore not being able to visually inspect each track, and instead looking across from the cess, was one of the factors leading to the Hatfield derailment. They couldn't see the cracking from across another line. Then there was the overstretched supervisor doing extra inspections to cover for a lack of maintenance staff, and didn't inspect the whole of the extra area he'd agreed to, so missed the points that caused the Greyrigg derailment. That was while the NMT was running but even NR stated that kind of defect would only be picked up after weeks and weeks of trawling through the pictures it took on its cycle. So even the less labour intensive method didn't help there.

Are you suggesting the railways are more dangerous now than previously and are becoming less safe?

There was a thread on this forum about how we were running on borrowed time before another major accident with the increase of near misses, and then we had Carmont. Why would removing maintenance staff make the railway safer when recent history has shown that stretching them too thin causes accidents?

I think you need to look at what actually caused that incident; it's not relevant to this thread.

Is there any evidence that it still will be? After all, they want to cut staff numbers. They'll just put taxis on.

Ok so it looks like your evidence something will happen is simply that they there is no proof it won't happen; clearly we are going round in circles.

I've seen plenty of staff help less abled passengers to their train when they have bags with them. Can a member of staff offer to help someone to their train if they aren't there at all?

Firstly is it proposed that there will be many more unstaffed stations than currently is the case?

Secondly it is already the case that the majority of stations are unstaffed however it is still possible to arrange for assistance.

Ticket window? No thats where the tickets are sold. This is the station office, or whatever the sign on the door says, we have on the platform. Guy comes out to dispatch trains, can ask him questions and stuff. Although who needs any more information than "this train is delayed". Who needs someone who could check on an incident log as to whether something has been sorted or not, or tell passengers that replacemnt buses/a fleet of taxis are being sourced. Anyway, what is confusing about modern announcements like "The 09:21 service to Nottingham has been cancelled, the next train to arrive on platform 1 will be the 09:21 servcie to Nottingham". Good job he made a manual anouncement afterwards to clear it up.

I'm really not sure what you are arguing here. Can you quote what exactly is proposed to happen that you object to, or is this just speculation?

Well, good thing we simply tap in and tap out at every station in the country then, and there aren't multiple available fares available for one journey.

The last time I had to use a ticket office for this situation, they sold me an invalid ticket; had the journey been available online I would have easily got a valid e-ticket. I don't therefore see the benefits to your argument. While you may prefer a traditional ticket office, the reality is times are changing and the railway needs to move with those times.

After the ticket office staff have been dispensed with, and that hasn't saved them enough cash, whats betting physical facilities are next? Once you let the cost cutting begin, it won't stop.

Is this just more speculation?

 

[Bald Rick]

Which is why it’s going to be very interesting to see whether the vote on this deal is done on a TOC by TOC basis or not…

it has to be done on a TOC by TOC basis - that’s the law.

We can safely assume they arent planning on improving the travelling experience and amenities for passengers, howewer.

I’d say having someone at the station out and about helping passengers with queries, boarding, directions, passenger assistance etc., and trained / equipped to do so, will be an improvement on having someone stuck behind a window.

The references we keep hearing from govt about :bringing people out from behind the glass', well if we are talking about stations staffed only with a ticket office, and they come out from behind the glass and stay on their salary, how does that offer any cost saving unless some ticket offices close which leave some stations totally unstaffed?

You are confusing the potential for savings network wide with what might happen at one station with one member of staff.

 

[Scott1]

... having someone at the station out and about helping passengers with queries, boarding, directions, passenger assistance etc., and trained / equipped to do so, will be an improvement on having someone stuck behind a window.

How will you find them? At present single manned stations are a nightmare to actually find a staff member.

I'd like them to put more ticket barriers in and move the ticket office colleague to there instead. At least then you can find the staff member and they'd be doing more to bring in revenue than a ticket office often manages.

In reality we all know the only way to save money is to get rid of the staff member, they can't be redeployed and save money, as there are not (despite what certain ministers belive) stations with teams of staff just sitting around doing nothing.

 

[43066]

At my TOC most grades have most of this anyway, we have to save two days leave for Christmas day and Boxing day if either falls on a working day where you are not res day.

Same here. It’s annoying but over a long enough period you’ll have a few where you’re not booked to work so comes out in the wash. They don’t monitor it so you are free to run your ad hoc entitlement down to zero and then take them as unpaid leave (easily made up for by rest days of course).

Do you have a source for this? The last I heard is that railway staff can opt out of compulsory Sunday working if they wish.

Only if they have non committed Sundays outside the week (or an arrangement where they’re committed but you can give notice to not work them). If you have “normal” committed Sundays you’ll have to work them if you can’t find cover. I have my Sundays inside (which admittedly is preferable to committed) and can book them as AL, swap them away or work them. That’s been the case at both TOCs I’ve worked for.

You probably need to accept you’re likely to end up with committed Sundays if this offer gets accepted.

 

[gledhill56]

Sounds like the sort of flexibility you get in any modernised company.

Indeed this happens at my workplace. I can be requested to work away from my usual Leeds depot to work out of Manchester, Knowsley, Sheffield or Dordon if the needs of the business dictate and have done so at all of them apart from Dordon.

 

[Bald Rick]

How will you find them? At present single manned stations are a nightmare to actually find a staff member.

That’s a rather sweeping statement.

 

[43066]

That’s a rather sweeping statement.

My preference would be to get rid of the OnTrak contractors who do nothing at all useful, and seem to just stand around staring into their phones and grunting occasionally, and use the savings to fund a smaller number of “proper” railway staff who can provide a knowledgeable and helpful presence.

Wishful thinking I suspect!

 

[Bald Rick]

My preference would be to get rid of the OnTrak contractors who do nothing at all useful, and seem to just stand around staring into their phones and grunting occasionally, and use the savings to fund a smaller number of “proper” railway staff who can provide a knowledgeable and helpful presence.

As I routinely see “proper” railway staff at stations doing much the same, I’d rather that any people employed at stations are reminded routinely that they are the public face of this industry and there to help passengers, preferably proactively.

 

[43066]

As I routinely see “proper” railway staff at stations doing much the same, I’d rather that any people employed at stations are reminded routinely that they are the public face of this industry and there to help passengers, preferably proactively.

I would agree some do, but that’s a performance management issue, rather than an argument against them being there in the first place. Many are excellent in my experience. On the other hand I’ve never seen a single OnTrak person doing anything useful. What are they even there for? They only seem to be a “thing” in the London area.

There probably is an argument that bringing people out of ticket offices will naturally make them more proactive/visible. Ticket offices do themselves no favours. My last use of one resulted in me being told there’s no such thing as a priv ticket … I’ve moved to using the RST online portal since.

 

[Scott1]

I suppose what a large part of the public side of this deal is, which staff do you want to lose. The offer is clear that to be delivered there has to be savings, and the only saving available from TOCs is staff, so who do you get rid of?

 

[MDB1images]

I’d be shocked if they did mate.

I'd be surprised if it wasn't put out to a vote though.