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New offer made to RMT by Rail Delivery Group

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Starmill

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A lot of GWR station grades do exactly that, dispatch, gateline and booking office.
Indeed! The arrangement has persisted in some cases back from the days where BR Intercity used to call at a secondary station but only every now and again. The solution was to have the booking office staff do the dispatch for Intercity.

There are also places already where customer assist is the job of the booking office staff, even at stations where there's only one person.
 
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Drogba11CFC

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I've got an away match on 11th February; would you say it's been prudent to start asking about lifts?

*Not sure if revealing the date was a good idea though with walls having ears
 

yorkie

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I've got an away match on 11th February; would you say it's been prudent to start asking about lifts?

*Not sure if revealing the date was a good idea though with walls having ears
It's too early to say. Can you wait until the 2 week cutoff? Only about a week to go and we will know for sure.
 

KM1991

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I've got an away match on 11th February; would you say it's been prudent to start asking about lifts?

*Not sure if revealing the date was a good idea though with walls having ears
Pretty sure this offer will go to a vote. No news on NWR yet. So unless ASLEF and RMT driver grades call further strikes so soon after the ones that are already pencilled in then you should be good.
 

gazzaa2

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The Conservatives should (hopefully) be out of power by then.

They must know they're toast at the next election so why would they be so concerned about terms and conditions for rail staff beyond then? Their priority should be ending this dispute. They thought they could do a Thatcher and have a big win against the unions but it's not cutting through and it's the economy that is the loser when the trains aren't running, more losses than what they'd save by cutting jobs.
 

Robertj21a

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Does anyone seriously believe that anything significant will be achieved by prolonging strikes?
 

Drogba11CFC

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Pretty sure this offer will go to a vote. No news on NWR yet. So unless ASLEF and RMT driver grades call further strikes so soon after the ones that are already pencilled in then you should be good.
Yes, but the vote's next week - would the results be announced by the Friday or the week after?
 

D.K.TAYLOR

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As a nautral observer I.e over 70 the strikes that are going on seem to be making less impact than at the start.
With a lot of office workers working from home and saving the travel expenses it seems to suit many who will abandon the train permanently.
The leasure traveller like myself will await the strike dates and then book a trip.
My local station staff who were adhering to the strike days have now ignored the union request to
strike and returned to work.
This situation is seemingly just going round and round with no end in sight with the drop in passenger numbers TOCs seem happy enough to cut services and scrap units with still a long life expectancy.
All in all a worrying time for the staff passengers and train travel in the future
 

TrainSpy

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I don't think that's a given by any means, because of the offer of voluntary severance which many ticket office staff would no doubt wish to apply for. It's a risk, of course it is. But that's true if literally any job.
the previous communications around the last offer said 'until at least'. I think this is is more about not being able to give guarantees beyond that date than anything else.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The detail is lacking.

Closing ticket offices would be fine if it wasn't a cover to simply destaff single manned stations, but the ticketing system is too complex for it to work. They are putting the horse in front of the cart.

Multi station cover is already common at my TOC for some regions, but again there's no detail. What about travel expenses and time?

How will Sundays work? If it is coming I to the working week then we will need more staff, as at present it is all commited overtime.

There's nowhere near the information needed to know anything frankly.
The detail is lacking - but that's because the detail will have to be negotiated at a local level anyway. The national agreement has to be very broad - and lots of the things they talk about are likely to be happening already.
 

Harbon 1

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If we don't know, I don't think we can automatically assume.
We can safely assume they arent planning on improving the travelling experience and amenities for passengers, howewer.

"There arent enough passengers using the railway so we're going to make it slightly harder to use, much more unpleasent and do less maintenance to save costs" Yeah that'll entice them back.
 

yorkie

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We can safely assume they arent planning on improving the travelling experience and amenities for passengers, howewer.

"There arent enough passengers using the railway so we're going to make it slightly harder to use, much more unpleasent and do less maintenance to save costs" Yeah that'll entice them back.
I'm not sure we have any real evidence this is actually what's happening, do we?

As for the travelling experience, someone may prefer to queue at a Scotrail or Southeastern ticket office for a paper ticket at a ticket window, while someone else may prefer to simply buy an e ticket; you won't get unanimous agreement as to what the best experience is!
 

Scott1

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I'm not sure we have any real evidence this is actually what's happening, do we?

As for the travelling experience, someone may prefer to queue at a Scotrail or Southeastern ticket office for a paper ticket at a ticket window, while someone else may prefer to simply buy an e ticket; you won't get unanimous agreement as to what the best experience is!
I suppose the difference is that you can do either now, with this deal closing the ticket office you wont be able to do the latter anymore.
 

yorkie

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I suppose the difference is that you can do either now
Unfortunately that is often not the case; for me I would rather have e tickets on all journeys, than queue at a ticket window, but I appreciate others will have a different preference for a bygone age.
, with this deal closing the ticket office you wont be able to do the latter anymore.
But this wouldn't actually penalise anyone; if there are no issuing facilities at the origin, are able to board the train without penalty. This is the case at thousands of stations across the network.
 

Scott1

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Unfortunately that is often not the case; for me I would rather have e tickets on all journeys, than queue at a ticket window, but I appreciate others will have a different preference for a bygone age.

But this wouldn't actually penalise anyone; if there are no issuing facilities at the origin, are able to board the train without penalty. This is the case at thousands of stations across the network.
I can not buy the ticket I require as an e-ticket, so unfortunately that's not an option available.

I'm not saying it penalises people, my concern is when the last station staff member is gone, then the same as I said before, there is no toilet, no waiting room, no one keeping an eye and helping people board the train and fetching the ramp.

Unrelated, how did you split the qoute in two please?
 

Starmill

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Do you have a source for this? The last I heard is that railway staff can opt out of compulsory Sunday working if they wish.
That's often the case, but where it is it's a matter of contract, rather than a matter of law.
 

winks

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What’s the detail on annual leave entitlements ? Are they being increased or harmonised ? Taking 2 days out of an annual entitlement of 24 days is woeful and well below what other industries offer staff.

I know SWR still only offer 24 days for non-guards.
 

pt_mad

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That's how it already is at my TOC. Its a pain for holidays as you can't book Sundays, and you have to either find cover yourself or work it unless it's in the middle of a fortnight off. It does attract an extra percentage, but nothing to get excited about.

Without the counter I suspect the single manned stations will simply be de-staffed.
[Post edited for clarity].

One would assume that de-staffing is the only way these changes are going to produce the cost savings that keep being referenced.
The references we keep hearing from govt about :bringing people out from behind the glass', well if we are talking about stations staffed only with a ticket office, and they come out from behind the glass and stay on their salary, how does that offer any cost saving unless some ticket offices close which leave some stations totally unstaffed? Presumably cuts are the only way to produce that.

Regards Sundays, another poster commented on the number of holidays a worker might get if they for example work 5 days a week.

Well if a worker who works 4 days in their basic week, and then say 2 in 3 Sundays, their holiday allowance presumably would not take this work into account within this proposed offer as Sunday remain overtime with regards their basic working week. However they must be worked unless cover found.

Presumably they wouldn't be entitled to book the Sunday off as leave, if they had something special planned. Nor would they be paid sick pay if they had a fortnight off and there were 2 Sundays which they'd have worked within that period?

It seems this arrangement is the worst of both worlds.
None of the basic benefits which would come from having a Sunday inside the working week such as able to have them annual leave and have sick pay for them, but an absolute obligation to work them on an effectively compulsory overtime basis.

Add to that, those who currently get Christmas and Boxing day off paid as extra having to lose two annual leave to use for those two days if it wasn't their rest day.
 
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Starmill

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I'm not sure we have any real evidence this is actually what's happening, do we?

As for the travelling experience, someone may prefer to queue at a Scotrail or Southeastern ticket office for a paper ticket at a ticket window, while someone else may prefer to simply buy an e ticket; you won't get unanimous agreement as to what the best experience is!
That said, I suspect nearly everyone would agree that if they had the option to buy a paper ticket from a ticket machine or use an eticket (on their phone or printed out), and single pay as you go areas layered on top of that, it would be better than the current complete mess.

Of course, the actual reality is that multiple competing proprietary pay as you go schemes are being rolled out on top of one another, for example Epsom to London has four which all use slightly different rules: Oyster, TfL Contactless, Tap2Go and KeyGo. In addition to etickets and paper tickets, and tickets loaded on ITSO. Having this mess to sort out serves nobody, it costs much more to administer and makes it far less likely that people will pay the cheapest available price for their needs.

All of these things can be administered with staff help, providing staff are actually given adequate training on the above mess which I doubt has happened at Epsom, but not necccesarily any need for a ticket office.
 

yorkie

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I can not buy the ticket I require as an e-ticket, so unfortunately that's not an option available.
Indeed it's frustrating when that happens; if all tickets were available as e-tickets, why would I need a booking office?
I'm not saying it penalises people, my concern is when the last station staff member is gone, then the same as I said before, there is no toilet, no waiting room, no one keeping an eye and helping people board the train and fetching the ramp.
But do we know if that is actually proposed? I don't support closing station facilities, but making staff multifunctional and moving away from old fashioned ticket windows is no bad thing in my view
Unrelated, how did you split the qoute in two please?
Press 'enter' in the middle of the post. Take care not to accidentally edit the post though;)
 

Scott1

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Indeed it's frustrating when that happens; if all tickets were available as e-tickets, why would I need a booking office?
I agree, this is what I mean by horse in front of the cart. We need to simplify the ticket types and have them all available as e tickets.
But do we know if that is actually proposed? I don't support closing station facilities, but making staff multifunctional and moving away from old fashioned ticket windows is no bad thing in my view
Hard to say. It's what they did last time we had these types of alteration proposed on my patch. The ticket offices shut, then they closed all the waiting rooms and toilets because they had no staff to care for them. A few became cafes, most of them were either sold off, pulled down or are sat boarded up to this day. They same thing happened with the BR staff reductions too. I can't think of any stations ony patch that have a waiting room and toilet that don't have a ticket office (as at present they are the last staff member to get cut).
Press 'enter' in the middle of the post. Take care not to accidentally edit the post though;)
Handy thanks!
 

jack31439

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What’s the detail on annual leave entitlements ? Are they being increased or harmonised ? Taking 2 days out of an annual entitlement of 24 days is woeful and well below what other industries offer staff.

I know SWR still only offer 24 days for non-guards.

This is a big point personally. Need to find out what it entails. If it means genuinely losing 2 days of leave from the total allowance then that may as well negate a payrise. Especially with the additional rates that typically are paid over this period.
 

pt_mad

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But do we know if that is actually proposed? I don't support closing station facilities, but making staff multifunctional and moving away from old fashioned ticket windows is no bad thing in my view
Thing is though, how would doing just that make the cost savings they want? Surely logic tells us this has to involve a significant level of de-staffing somewhere?
Some of these stations where there aren't a large number of tickets sold only have one member of staff who looks after their facilities as part of their day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

This is a big point personally. Need to find out what it entails. If it means genuinely losing 2 days of leave from the total allowance then that may as well negate a payrise. Especially with the additional rates that typically are paid over this period.
Precisely.

Someone who gets the £1750 can presumably effectively consider a couple of hundred quid deducted off that amount for the two days annual leave they have to use at Christmas, which they didn't have to use before.
 

Harbon 1

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I'm not sure we have any real evidence this is actually what's happening, do we?

As for the travelling experience, someone may prefer to queue at a Scotrail or Southeastern ticket office for a paper ticket at a ticket window, while someone else may prefer to simply buy an e ticket; you won't get unanimous agreement as to what the best experience is!

Reduction of staff both station and maintenance related are written into the "deals" offered by the government. What else is happening? We already know what happens when you stretch maintenance staff too thin but thats the NR deal's issue.

Help with boarding a passenger in a wheelchair or helping with bags is the experience, not buying tickets (although its not a great one if you get fined because you didn't know which option to buy). Sitting in a waiting room or being able to ask the bloke in the office on the platform about a delay, or where the train is, isn't some "bygone age," its customer service. If its a poor experience fewer people who could (but don't have to) use trains won't bother anymore. How is that helping the industry exactly?
 

Annetts key

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No compulsory redundancy is an absurd position that never existed in BR.
It did, it just comes under a different arrangement, so was never called that.

It traps people in low productivity roles, reduces productivity, it is a disincentive to investment and results in people being employed in totally unsuitable roles.
No, that’s all incorrect. No compulsory redundancy does not mean that posts do not go. When combined with a voluntary severance or voluntary redundancy scheme, you can actually give employees a chance to up skill themselves.

There are literally hundreds of stations where tickets to the rest of the country are sold by a machine.

How many people in the likes of Wimbledon actually go outside the Contactless area that make this insurmountable?

It's like another DOO debate, vending machines already happen at stations used by huge numbers of people.
How soon before AI expert systems are brought in to deal with the lack of GPs? Or indeed, the same thing in other areas? There will always be some people who prefer to use technology/automation. But there will also be some people who prefer to have interactions with another person. Why shouldn’t the customer have a choice and decide which they prefer?

Another question might be, at stations which only have TVMs available and are not barriered, how many people don't like them and walk past the TVMs and pay onboard (or online if they feel they may be imminently challenged)?
Taking this further, if you have unstaffed stations, no barriers and trains with only a driver on board, how many passengers will chance not buying a ticket?
Also if there are no station staff, no ticket office, who will deal with any incidents?

We can safely assume they arent planning on improving the travelling experience and amenities for passengers, howewer.

"There arent enough passengers using the railway so we're going to make it slightly harder to use, much more unpleasent and do less maintenance to save costs" Yeah that'll entice them back.
This is being driven by government simply to try to cut costs. Spoiler: they’ve already failed with this, firstly because the cost of servicing the debts of the railways is far higher than any savings excluding the costs to the government and the country of the industrial action. And secondly, the costs to the government and the country of the industrial action outweighs the costs of any savings in the short term at least.

The government does not care about the passenger experience at all. I don’t have a crystal ball, but it would not surprise me if we end up with more unstaffed stations (with less facilities like waiting rooms and toilets), more part time staffed stations, less staff to help passengers even if the station is a staffed station. Stations becoming less well kept (a member of staff can only do one thing at a time, so if they are kept busy, the least important jobs just won’t get done). Expect more graffiti for example.

Indeed, for certain people, an unkept, unstaffed station, with no facilities may be enough to put them off using the railway. They are then likely to use their car.

Do I have evidence for the above? No. But as others have said, this is what has happened in the past.
You don’t cut costs just by moving staff out from a ticket office unless you cut the number of staff.

Someone mentioned inflation. The inflation rate that gets banded about is just the rate of change. And that is typically a figure for the last 12 months. Even if inflation dropped to zero, it does not mean that prices go back down, or that the cost of living is no longer a problem. So regardless of the current headline inflation figure, employees are still going to be wanting a pay rise so that they are not getting poorer compared to the increase in the cost of living that has already occurred.
 

yorkie

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Reduction of staff both station and maintenance related are written into the "deals" offered by the government. What else is happening? We already know what happens when you stretch maintenance staff too thin but thats the NR deal's issue.
Are you suggesting that safety will be compromised and if so, do you have evidence that the move from more labour intensive methods of maintenance towards more modern methods actually compromises safety?
Help with boarding a passenger in a wheelchair
Is there any evidence that this will no longer be offered?
or helping with bags is the experience,
Can you elaborate on this? Do you have examples of where bag carrying has been offered and discontinued?
not buying tickets (although its not a great one if you get fined because you didn't know which option to buy)
There should not be any 'fines' issued where the origin station is unstaffed. Furthermore the correct action where a time or route restriction isn't adhered to is to excess tickets. If there are places where incorrect charging or fines are charged I would be interested to hear more about this.
. Sitting in a waiting room or being able to ask the bloke in the office on the platform about a delay, or where the train is, isn't some "bygone age," its customer service.
On the modern era I would expect announcements and/or online information to be available, rather than have to go to a ticket window to ask about a delay.
If its a poor experience fewer people who could (but don't have to) use trains won't bother anymore. How is that helping the industry exactly?
I'm not convinced that closing ticket windows is going to result in a poorer experience; has that happened for London Underground?

Do we know of any locations where there are plans for facilities to be removed or is this just a theoretical position?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

...How soon before AI expert systems are brought in to deal with the lack of GPs?...
A very theoretical post which doesn't seem to be based in reality, I didn't read much of it to be honest. Can we discuss what is actually proposed to happen?

As for the idea that you can counter inflation by inflating wages by the same amount, that's fanciful but has been debunked in other threads previously.
 
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