New offer made to RMT by Rail Delivery Group

[Facing Back]

It's an easy way to cut jobs. Yes, some stations are over staffed, but that won't be where the line is drawn. At quiet stations I can see it making sense, but at busier stations staff will be expected to run around doing everything as there will be far fewer staff than there are now.

OK understood. I'm not sure I fully agree but thanks for the reply.

 

[Harbon 1]

The way the vast majority of heavy rail users people pay for travel is identical to the Undeground but heavy rail has a ticket office and the Underground has not for 6 years.

Paying for travel is fine. How many underground tickets aren't valid? Can you buy tickets to the whole country from a london underground ticket barrier? I like to see myself as quite profficeint at buying tickets, but I'll still ask at the office sometimes because I don't always know what the cheapest option is.

The issue isn't buying the tickets, the issue is having to pay a penalty fare on the train because you bought the cheapest ticket on the TVM with nobody to ask if thats the right one.

If the rail network was tap on tap off it wouldn't be an issue having no one to help confused passengers, but it isn't and the amount of tickets available doesn't exactly help does it?

 

[DNCharingX]

It's an easy way to cut jobs. Yes, some stations are over staffed, but that won't be where the line is drawn. At quiet stations I can see it making sense, but at busier stations staff will be expected to run around doing everything as there will be far fewer staff than there are now.

Couldn't have put it better, this'll be a disaster at busier stations, but multi-working at smaller stations down the line is perfectly reasonable.

 

[jayah]

you're also being disingenuous here when you pretend the problem is the RMT. If the current dispute was truly just because of the RMT, wouldn't the disputes with ASLEF and TSSA have been resolved?

The rump of the overall dispute is about money, despite all of the other excuses that come up.

The RMT are particularly militant because they are on weak ground and know it. Frankly they are left repeatedly going on strike to protect their ability to stop the trains by going on strike.

For years they have got away with this and now DOO goes back to the TOCs for negotiation, who no longer have the money to pay them off, the stage is set for more very long disputes over a debate about DOO that was actually settled 20 years ago.

 

[Facing Back]

The vast majority of tickets are now sold online as e-tickets. That's your replacement. It's got to the point where I get "wha?" looks from some staff if I present a physical ticket.

It's quite common at Bletchley for instance for the booking office window to be queueless with a bored person sat behind it while everyone walks in with e-tickets or uses the TVMs.

I think if they get on with rationalising/simplifying the myriad of ticket options then closing ticket offices will be a lot more painless.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Paying for travel is fine. How many underground tickets aren't valid? Can you buy tickets to the whole country from a london underground ticket barrier? I like to see myself as quite profficeint at buying tickets, but I'll still ask at the office sometimes because I don't always know what the cheapest option is.

You are far more likely to get the cheapest option from e.g. Trainsplit than you are from a booking office. Yes, there are some real gems working in them, but I encounter far more bad ones than good ones.

 

[KM1991]

RMT NEC need further time to consider the offer. No decision to be made until next week.

 

[jayah]

Paying for travel is fine. How many underground tickets aren't valid? Can you buy tickets to the whole country from a london underground ticket barrier? I like to see myself as quite profficeint at buying tickets, but I'll still ask at the office sometimes because I don't always know what the cheapest option is.

The issue isn't buying the tickets, the issue is having to pay a penalty fare on the train because you bought the cheapest ticket on the TVM with nobody to ask if thats the right one.

If the rail network was tap on tap off it wouldn't be an issue having no one to help confused passengers, but it isn't and the amount of tickets available doesn't exactly help does it?

There are literally hundreds of stations where tickets to the rest of the country are sold by a machine.

How many people in the likes of Wimbledon actually go outside the Contactless area that make this insurmountable?

It's like another DOO debate, vending machines already happen at stations used by huge numbers of people.

 

[pt_mad]

There are literally hundreds of stations where tickets to the rest of the country are sold by a machine.

How many people in the likes of Wimbledon actually go outside the Contactless area that make this insurmountable?

It's like another DOO debate, vending machines already happen at stations used by huge numbers of people.

Another question might be, at stations which only have TVMs available and are not barriered, how many people don't like them and walk past the TVMs and pay onboard (or online if they feel they may be imminently challenged)?

 

[Harbon 1]

You are far more likely to get the cheapest option from e.g. Trainsplit than you are from a booking office. Yes, there are some real gems working in them, but I encounter far more bad ones than good ones.

Splitting tickets isn't even the issue I was thinking of. I don't know whether I can buy a super off peak and it be valid, or an off peak. Whats the difference? I don't know. I'd hazard a guess most people wouldn't think twice about buying the cheaper return, only realising it isn't valid for the next day when they come back, and the slightly more expensive one is the one they should've bought. Does the TVM ask you which train you're planning on catching before letting you buy a ticket which is only for the other operator?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2023 ==

There are literally hundreds of stations where tickets to the rest of the country are sold by a machine.

How many people in the likes of Wimbledon actually go outside the Contactless area that make this insurmountable?

It's like another DOO debate, vending machines already happen at stations used by huge numbers of people.

How many questions do you think get asked about LU tickets compared to NR tickets? I this valid, can I catch this train, can I use this tomorrow etc etc

 

[Mainsideman]

Couldn't have put it better, this'll be a disaster at busier stations, but multi-working at smaller stations down the line is perfectly reasonable.

I would not say its a way to cut loads of staff, for example at the big stations you can not have someone doing gateline and dispatch at the same time, its not possible

 

[Trainbike46]

Splitting tickets isn't even the issue I was thinking of. I don't know whether I can buy a super off peak and it be valid, or an off peak. Whats the difference? I don't know. I'd hazard a guess most people wouldn't think twice about buying the cheaper return, only realising it isn't valid for the next day when they come back, and the slightly more expensive one is the one they should've bought. Does the TVM ask you which train you're planning on catching before letting you buy a ticket which is only for the other operator?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2023 ==


How many questions do you think get asked about LU tickets compared to NR tickets? I this valid, can I catch this train, can I use this tomorrow etc etc

some TVMs require selecting an itinerary. It's really annoying in my opinion, and has occasionally lead to me giving up on certain TVMs and joining the queue for the ticket office

 

[Confused52]

They didn't afaik. They agreed to a resolution to the DOO dispute with the RMT as I understand it.

Would issues like that be reopened after such a long time reaching an agreement in the recent past?

If I remember correctly the MD of Northern told the HoC select committee that the dispute with RMT was ongoing with assistance from ACAS, but the thought that the situation was positive. Others may disagree. He also said Northern had no intention of not rostering a second person on every train.

 

[yorkie]

Splitting tickets isn't even the issue I was thinking of.

Ticket offices won't advise on that anyway (at least they are not supposed to!)

I don't know whether I can buy a super off peak and it be valid, or an off peak. Whats the difference? I don't know. I'd hazard a guess most people wouldn't think twice about buying the cheaper return, only realising it isn't valid for the next day when they come back, and the slightly more expensive one is the one they should've bought. Does the TVM ask you which train you're planning on catching before letting you buy a ticket which is only for the other operator?

If unsure what ticket to buy, the best thing to do is plan the journey and you will be offered the relevant ticket(s) which are valid.

Last time I asked at a ticket office, I was sold an invalid ticket (Super off peak on SWR for an invalid time).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2023 ==


How many questions do you think get asked about LU tickets compared to NR tickets? I this valid, can I catch this train, can I use this tomorrow etc etc

That advice doesn't have to be given from behind a counter, though.

The pros and cons of keeping ticket offices open is probably best discussed in a separate thread to be honest. In fact we have had a few:

All railway ticket offices in England to close?

The Sunday Times is reporting today that: All ticket offices are to close on the railways, forcing passengers to book online under plans to save up to £500 million a year. The rail industry has drawn up a confidential strategy to phase out paper tickets and close or “repurpose” 980 ticket...

www.railforums.co.uk

RMT reveals rail industrys plan to close over a 1000 ticket offices

RMT has published a list of ticket office closures by TOC that they say will get closed down by TOCs. https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-reveals-rail-industrys-plan-for-a-cull-of-ticket-offices/ They say RMT understands that government has amended its guidance relating to changes to ticket...

www.railforums.co.uk

Hundreds of railway ticket offices could be closed

What's people's thoughts on this? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60729901

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[43066]

Overall better than it was. The sick pay and mandatory Sundays might be a sticking point. There’s no point resisting ticket office closures long term, better to focus on severance/redeployment.

Still not exactly a great offer in the scheme of things, but will it get much better? If I were a guard I’d be tempted by this.

 

[RPI]

At my TOC most grades have most of this anyway, we have to save two days leave for Christmas day and Boxing day if either falls on a working day where you are not res day.
Most station grades are multi skilled anyway, particularly at former Wessex Trains stations.
Revenue Protection grades are essentially multi skilled too, this has probably been our saviour over previous years.
I'd happily take this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2023 ==

Overall better than it was. The sick pay and mandatory Sundays might be a sticking point. There’s no point resisting ticket office closures long term, better to focus on severance/redeployment.

Still not exactly a great offer in the scheme of things, but will it get much better? If I were a guard I’d be tempted by this.

I think you've nailed it, not perfect for some TOC's but doubt we'll get any better.

Will be interesting as my grade has dual representation in terms of collective bargaining with both RMT and TSSA.

 

[Scott1]

It points to a committment to work protocol. Basically they stay as overtime if they are now, but are forced unless you find cover. How this works regarding booking Sundays off or if you're sick for one day I have no idea?
Is Sunday pay pensionable if extra on the working week?

That's how it already is at my TOC. Its a pain for holidays as you can't book Sundays, and you have to either find cover yourself or work it unless it's in the middle of a fortnight off. It does attract an extra percentage, but nothing to get excited about.

That advice doesn't have to be given from behind a counter, though.

Without the counter I suspect the single manned stations will simply be de-staffed.

My TOC operates a lot of stations where the is only 1 person. They open up, clean the facilities, platforms and car parks, and run the ticket counter and provide Passenger Assist. If the ticket counter is closed then historically they also close the toilets and waiting rooms and leave it just as a staff-less platform only station. I suspect this is what will happen again this time round.

 

[yorkie]

My TOC operates a lot of stations where the is only 1 person. They open up, clean the facilities, platforms and car parks, and run the ticket counter and provide Passenger Assist. If the ticket counter is closed then historically they also close the toilets and waiting rooms and leave it just as a staff-less platform only station. I suspect this is what will happen again this time round.

Do we know exactly what is proposed? There is a big difference between closing a counter and having staff freed up to do other things and removing station facilities.

If we don't know, I don't think we can automatically assume.

Do you have any examples of this happening previously, and were the facilities that were removed well used?

 

[Sleepy]

There is no need to have TOCs like GTR and C2C involved in a dispute over DOO, as they already are DOO


you're also being disingenuous here when you pretend the problem is the RMT. If the current dispute was truly just because of the RMT, wouldn't the disputes with ASLEF and TSSA have been resolved?

Similarly with the issues around sunday working, why on earth would you involve TOCs that are already sundays inside or committed sunday in the dispute? Unless of course your only goal was to make the strikes longer and worse for some reason

Precisely - at my TOC Sundays are committed (and very rarely staff shortage issue) depot cross cover already normal, Christmas holidays comes out of Annual leave. So it's just Dft and treasury etc union bashing.

 

[Scott1]

Do we know exactly what is proposed? There is a big difference between closing a counter and having staff freed up to do other things and removing station facilities.

Hard to say. Most of our single staff stations have a ticket counter and office space at the front, but the staff are already out and about, as I say cleaning and such, and you ring a bell at a few, or at most go hunting around till you can find them. They will then help you accordingly, often at the TVM to save getting back into the office!

They closed a few of our ticket offices a few years back, and as part of that the waiting rooms were also closed as there was no one to maintain and clean th anymore. A roaming cleaner did a few of the toilets, but they kept getting vandalised and also closed.

 

[RPI]

Its important to note that the ticket office consultation must be done in accordance with Schedule 17, so on the face of it at least there will have to be some correlation between how busy a ticket office is as to whether it will be closed.... (you'd hope)

 

[KM1991]

Overall better than it was. The sick pay and mandatory Sundays might be a sticking point. There’s no point resisting ticket office closures long term, better to focus on severance/redeployment.

Still not exactly a great offer in the scheme of things, but will it get much better? If I were a guard I’d be tempted by this.

Which is why it’s going to be very interesting to see whether the vote on this deal is done on a TOC by TOC basis or not…

 

[Fred26]

The rump of the overall dispute is about money, despite all of the other excuses that come up.

The RMT are particularly militant because they are on weak ground and know it. Frankly they are left repeatedly going on strike to protect their ability to stop the trains by going on strike.

For years they have got away with this and now DOO goes back to the TOCs for negotiation, who no longer have the money to pay them off, the stage is set for more very long disputes over a debate about DOO that was actually settled 20 years ago.

For most station staff it's not about money.
A payrise is always nice, but there are far bigger issues in this dispute.

You are absolutely obsessed with DOO and that's fine, if you feel that strongly, but as it's been taken off the table, can you refrain from turning this thread into another DOO row?

 

[Starmill]

No idea what that particular role is.

Simply one where staff are qualified to work on gates, platform dispatch, remote or booking office ticket retail and customer assistance, rather than having multiple separate people for each job. It's not only Chiltern who do it, though they did take it one step further by having RPIs qualify to work safety critical onboard roles too.

 

[Snow1964]

RMT NEC need further time to consider the offer. No decision to be made until next week.

I think they have also been bowled a googly by the admission by Rail minister that extra money could have settled the dispute back in December, and would have been cheaper than loss to economy. But Government didn't want to set a pay precedent that could have been used by nurses, teachers etc.

So the staff going on strike in last 3 weeks voluntarily lost pay on a futile further claim which was against a ceiling amount Government had decided upon. Now it has come out that any extra strikes won't really gain anything further, and Government is happy to sit it out.

Seems to me RMT now have to do lot of backpedaling, as there are those members who probably don't want to continue strikes, and lose more pay, but rather wish they got best deal redeploying staff and ensuring appropriate new roles and pay with no redundancy instead.

 

[Smidster]

At the very least I would hope that people would get a vote on it and have as much information as possible to make a good decision.

My question would be - if you reject this is it *really* going to get significantly better to the point that it is worth losing even more money month after month in the current climate and when the labour market is starting to weaken and inflation will fall (if only because the price level so high)

I do have some sympathy on ticket offices but they are like bank branches - they are very hard to justify based on usage patterns in 2023 even if that will cause some (even significant) harm to some.

 

[RPI]

Simply one where staff are qualified to work on gates, platform dispatch, remote or booking office ticket retail and customer assistance, rather than having multiple separate people for each job. It's not only Chiltern who do it, though they did take it one step further by having RPIs qualify to work safety critical onboard roles too.

A lot of GWR station grades do exactly that, dispatch, gateline and booking office.

 

[Scott1]

A lot of GWR station grades do exactly that, dispatch, gateline and booking office.

Yeh my TOC too. Its pretty standard across most stations from what I see. Feels like it's being made to sound like an issue for press releases, when in reality it isn't.

 

[RPI]

Yeh my TOC too. Its pretty standard across most stations from what I see. Feels like it's being made to sound like an issue for press releases, when in reality it isn't.

A lot of them enjoy the variety too.

 

[Snow1964]

Considering the previous offer was rejected, I don't think an extra 1% in 2022 would be enough? Have I missed something else that has radically changed the offer?

You don't strike to get just an extra 1%?

The average person working 5 days a week, does about 230 days a year after holidays. Striking 3 days is higher loss this year than the 1% gain. So after about 20 days strikes really looking at taking 8 years to get the one off extra 1% back