New offer made to RMT by Rail Delivery Group

[pt_mad]

A responsible employer checks certificates of insurance before paying any mileage. Mine does.

Who's to say mileage would be paid?

If they're talking about teams who cover multi locations as standard then it may not be that people even have a home location?

And it still doesn't cover what would happen to the large number of workers who don't have their own car. Some also cycle, walk, get lifts or get the train. I don't see how they could be treated differently to someone with a car either.

 

[jayah]

Never see the Govt pick a fight like this with doctors or civil servants do we. Why don't they have to work 7 days a week?

There was a huge doctors strike a few years ago about this.

We want to have more doctors working at weekends, but the lack of investment is what is stopping us working more weekends.

So we are going on strike because we don't want more weekend shifts for ourselves, even though we want more doctors working at weekends.

There were some similarities with the infrastructure dispute including reducing increase in rates for out of hours and weekends while increasing basic pay and some ideas that shouldn't have been up for debate like increasing pay based on progression rather than time in post.

NHS strike 2016

 

[Trainbike46]

I don't doubt it, the government are as weak as a damp sheet of kitchen roll.

Reform is essential. DOO is imperative.

You don't like DOO?

OK, we'll just make that for TOC negotiation, so you can show off by having another 15 TOC strikes over the next 15 years, just like the last.

Without getting into a debate about the merits (or lack of merits) of DOO, dealing with DOO on a TOC by TOC basis makes sense; Some TOCs are already DOO/DCO and on others there may be rules or rolling stock that prevent it being implemented anytime soon. All those TOCs could avoid a DOO fight by dealing with it at a TOC level, while if it stays in this national dispute it will be about ALL TOCs, so I think it was sensible to move DOO to a TOC-level discussion

 

[Frankfurt]

I think it's an utterly crap offer, not to dissimilar from the first.

Would rather go another year without a rise.

 

[Trainbike46]

The offer looks very much like all the things that the govt wanted from the start, with the removal of DOO which wasn't slotted in until December anyway, and a minimum salary uplift of £1750 for 2022.

Surely accepting this would mean the RMT have been striking for near 8 months just to remove DOO and up the pay offer? The defend conditions bit would largely be lost if this was accepted into.

I thought earlier on in the year, TOCs/RDG were prevented from making any offers (even 0% pay increase offers). Did I misunderstand something?

 

[pt_mad]

I thought earlier on in the year, TOCs/RDG were prevented from making any offers (even 0% pay increase offers). Did I misunderstand something?

The RMT put out a list to it's members very early in the year of everything they were told was desired from the talks at the Rail Industry Recovery Group and made it known they were preparing for a campaign. Pretty much all the negative stuff in this offer was listed and is still there. Except for DOO which Mick Lynch said was only inserted in December anyway.

Guard grades ok there's been some movement on DOO after it was supposedly inserted in December. Other grades, what compromises have been achieved other than a minimum uplift?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Who's to say mileage would be paid?

If they're talking about teams who cover multi locations as standard then it may not be that people even have a home location?

The decider is generally found in the tax rules. You can be an "ordinary commuter" to an area rather than a specific location. If you go to London daily, but one day you go to one office and one day you go to another, that's ordinary commuting.

Either way, it's just a non issue. Cars can easily be insured to be used in the way proposed; it's a totally standard requirement. That's the be all and end all of it.

And it still doesn't cover what would happen to the large number of workers who don't have their own car. Some also cycle, walk, get lifts or get the train.

That would need to be addressed, e.g. redeployment or if necessary redundancy.

I don't see how they could be treated differently to someone with a car either.

Car ownership is not a protected characteristic unless you're unable to drive due to a disability, in which case reasonable adjustments would be made for that individual. Of course you can require car ownership and holding a driving licence in a job. It's very, very common indeed. I'd have to dig my contract out but I'm almost certain mine requires holding a driving licence but not owning a car (that isn't as silly as it sounds as hire cars are often used for business travel).

 

[jayah]

Without getting into a debate about the merits (or lack of merits) of DOO, dealing with DOO on a TOC by TOC basis makes sense; Some TOCs are already DOO/DCO and on others there may be rules or rolling stock that prevent it being implemented anytime soon. All those TOCs could avoid a DOO fight by dealing with it at a TOC level, while if it stays in this national dispute it will be about ALL TOCs, so I think it was sensible to move DOO to a TOC-level discussion

There are already rules about DOO e.g. absolute block.

Nobody has ever avoided a dispute with the RMT by doing anything other than not introducing DOO, despite being an established and proven safe method up to 12 cars, for 40 years now.

It has everything to do with the fact DOO means the RMT cannot stop the trains by going on strike and nothing to do with it actually being dangerous.

 

[Starmill]

That's like "offers above £X" when selling a house. If the strikes continue there'll be another offer.

Says who? There hasn't been one from Network Rail since they said that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Says who? There hasn't been one from Network Rail since they said that.

If the strikes continue, in the end one side or t'other will give up. Could be the strikers, I suppose, or the terms could be imposed which has the same effect.

 

[Russel]

It has everything to do with the fact DOO means the RMT cannot stop the trains by going on strike and nothing to do with it actually being dangerous.

And here we have the real reason the RMT have been so militant.

 

[142blue]

This needs to go out to a vote asap

So ticket office staff basically get stuffed over. £21+ a month for what exactly??

 

[Starmill]

A responsible employer checks certificates of insurance before paying any mileage. Mine does.

Indeed. And checks valid licences are held and keeps a record of everyone permitted to drive on business. Sometimes also a declaration that you've read the driving policy and will follow it, usually including all the stuff you should already know, like don't reverse out of a parking space etc.

 

[pt_mad]

That would need to be addressed, e.g. redeployment or if necessary redundancy.

There's no suggestion of redundancy within this offer. So can't see how there could even be a suggestion that potentially anyone could be made redundant because they don't have transport to travel to multiple locations away from their current contracted location.

 

[Philip]

The vast majority at least.

I work in a busy one and whilst the numbers are down just about everywhere, a lot of people still come to us for help on various issues; ticket sales are back up to the hundreds per day at the busier stations. What you're proposing won't help passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's no suggestion of redundancy within this offer. So can't see how there could even be a suggestion that potentially anyone could be made redundant because they don't have transport to travel to multiple locations away from their current contracted location.

The offer says no compulsory redundancies until 31/12/2024. As such, we can assume that there WILL be compulsory redundancies from 1/1/2025, probably of booking office and related staff.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2023 ==

I work in a busy one and whilst the numbers are down just about everywhere, a lot of people still come to us for help on various issues; ticket sales are back up to the hundreds per day at the busier stations. What you're proposing won't help passengers.

I'm not proposing it, I'm telling you it is what DfT wants and thus what is going to happen.

In any case I'd rather that than close lines or stations.

 

[pt_mad]

The offer says no compulsory redundancies until 31/12/2024. As such, we can assume that there WILL be compulsory redundancies from 1/1/2025, probably of booking office and related staff.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2023 ==



I'm not proposing it, I'm telling you it is what DfT wants and thus what is going to happen.

In any case I'd rather that than close lines or stations.

You think closing of booking offices would wait until then?

 

[Russel]

So ticket office staff basically get stuffed over. £21+ a month for what exactly??

London Underground closed ticket offices 10 years ago, London Underground hasn't collapsed yet, so it can't be that much of an issue.

 

[jayah]

And here we have the real reason the RMT have been so militant.

Even ASLEF don't agree with them!

So even if the strike is resolved it isn't resolved because we then suffer 15 individual strikes over DOO and nothing is gained from efficiency in signalling and ticket selling because they are also offering 24 months of no compulsory redundancy.

Of course the fact OBS terms were protected in the Southern dispute and there was a NCR agreement counted for nothing, because OBS meant the TOC staff in the RMT could not stop trains running.

 

[Railwayowl80]

There's no suggestion of redundancy within this offer. So can't see how there could even be a suggestion that potentially anyone could be made redundant because they don't have transport to travel to multiple locations away from their current contracted location.

maybe it’s a role for future employees will need a valid driving license and car like you’ve said it’s so vague lol

 

[jayah]

This needs to go out to a vote asap

So ticket office staff basically get stuffed over. £21+ a month for what exactly??

Two years of no compulsory redundancy.

 

[Trainbike46]

There are already rules about DOO e.g. absolute block.

Nobody has ever avoided a dispute with the RMT by doing anything other than not introducing DOO, despite being an established and proven safe method up to 12 cars, for 40 years now.

It has everything to do with the fact DOO means the RMT cannot stop the trains by going on strike and nothing to do with it actually being dangerous.

If there are other reasons that prevent DOO being implemented (such as signalling or rolling stock), there is no need for a fight between the union and the government about DOO there. At least not until there are plans to change the situation in a way that would potentially allow for DOO to be implemented.

If DOO is already in place, it makes no sense for those TOCs to be part of a dispute over DOO.

Therefore, it makes sense to deal with DOO at a TOC level, instead of through the current, national dispute. That way, it doesn't get in the way of a solution at TOCs where it is not relevant.

This is completely separate from whether DOO is a good idea

 

[KM1991]

This needs to go out to a vote asap

So ticket office staff basically get stuffed over. £21+ a month for what exactly??

All station grades will be restructured it seems. Not sure what that means for people that can not do safety critical roles, if the master plan is for all station jobs to align…

Unfortunately, I think ticket offices are going to shut sooner or later regardless.

 

[Hugo3000]

I think it's an utterly crap offer, not to dissimilar from the first.

Would rather go another year without a rise.

My thoughts exactly. It's a complete erosion of T&Cs for a paltry pay rise.

 

[Starmill]

This needs to go out to a vote asap

So ticket office staff basically get stuffed over. £21+ a month for what exactly??

Both the gross increase floor of £1,750 and no compulsory redundancy guarantee would still apply to ticket office staff. Any reorganisation will be subject to further detailed consultation. How much more than those three elements can thw trade union realistically hope to gain, no matter how long they hold out for?

 

[pt_mad]

Even ASLEF don't agree with them!

So even if the strike is resolved it isn't resolved because we then suffer 15 individual strikes over DOO and nothing is gained from efficiency in signalling and ticket selling because they are also offering 24 months of no compulsory redundancy.

Do we have to suffer individual strikes over DOO at TOCs that already came to agreement over this such as Northern?

 

[Philip]

The offer says no compulsory redundancies until 31/12/2024. As such, we can assume that there WILL be compulsory redundancies from 1/1/2025, probably of booking office and related staff.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2023 ==



I'm not proposing it, I'm telling you it is what DfT wants and thus what is going to happen.

In any case I'd rather that than close lines or stations.

The DfT haven't mentioned closing the 'vast majority of booking offices' as you state, they have mentioned a new muti-skilled station role which doesn't necessarily mean the office will close.

 

[KM1991]

The offer says no compulsory redundancies until 31/12/2024. As such, we can assume that there WILL be compulsory redundancies from 1/1/2025, probably of booking office and related staff.

The Conservatives should (hopefully) be out of power by then.

 

[jayah]

If there are other reasons that prevent DOO being implemented (such as signalling or rolling stock), there is no need for a fight between the union and the government about DOO there. At least not until there are plans to change the situation in a way that would potentially allow for DOO to be implemented.

If DOO is already in place, it makes no sense for those TOCs to be part of a dispute over DOO.

Therefore, it makes sense to deal with DOO at a TOC level, instead of through the current, national dispute. That way, it doesn't get in the way of a solution at TOCs where it is not relevant.

This is completely separate from whether DOO is a good idea

The RMT have gone on strike because TOCs procure new trains that have the capability to operate as DOO.

15 years of negotiation about DOO at TOC level have resulted in very little progress. The Southern dispute was only resolved when the terms were imposed.

 

[greyman42]

I work in a busy one and whilst the numbers are down just about everywhere, a lot of people still come to us for help on various issues; ticket sales are back up to the hundreds per day at the busier stations. What you're proposing won't help passengers.

I use York regularly and just about every time i use it there is a queue. I would be surprised if their numbers are down.