I don't think that's a given by any means, because of the offer of voluntary severance which many ticket office staff would no doubt wish to apply for. It's a risk, of course it is. But that's true if literally any job.
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New offer made to RMT by Rail Delivery Group
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Well the savings they reference as paying for the pay rises would presumably come from flat out booking offices closures?
There are notable stations which had before Covid well over a million passenger journeys a year which are staffed only by a ticket offices. Some are large towns and some are even small cities. Some would say the possibility of unstaffing places like that would be a travesty.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Making compulsory redundancies of RMT members clearly would, unless you're accusing RDG of lying, which would be quite serious.
So you think Labour would scrap anything implemented by the Conservatives?
Ticket offices are also in the consultation long grass.
No compulsory redundancy is an absurd position that never existed in BR.
It traps people in low productivity roles, reduces productivity, it is a disincentive to investment and results in people being employed in totally unsuitable roles.
Trainbike46
Established Member
There are only 14 DfT TOCs to begin with, and some of those are already DOO, so there definitely will not be 15 individual strikes over DOO
Llanigraham
On Moderation
People keep saying this but it has to be remembered that an awful lot of RMT members have nothing to do with TOCs, but are employed by Network Rail.
I really don't think that it's going to be an issue. Over the next two years you've got a trickle of retirements, promotions and career changes, and no doubt a flood of voluntary severance applications. There are also a significant number of station grade vacancies which have built up over the last three years, but aren't allowed to be filled until this dispute is resolved, although obviously they don't exist evenly across the country.
There's little reason to believe someone who is currently in the role will be jobless under this proposal.
Of course I'm not.
I am making the point that just because there is an offer of no compulsory redundancies for that set period doesn't mean the booking offices couldn't be closed quickly after consultation on acceptance of this offer. The original offer as I understood it pointed to redeployment and severance.
So if ticket offices were potentially closed soon after an acceptance and consultation it still doesn't answer where staff who can't (or maybe don't want to take) safety critical jobs and have no transport would be sent to? Unless they are allowed to travel by train during their shift and there is some flexibility of staffing locations first till last to allow people without transport to get home.
Philip
On Moderation
A lot of ticket offices are not of low productivity.
Same for Ely - and even more so for Cambridge, which usually has a queue even with 4 or 5 windows open.
How much does keeping ticket offices cost, compared to some of the other costs of running a railway? And how much revenue do they bring in from people who otherwise wouldn't travel?
I know we've done this discussion a hundred times already, but in order to succeed, the railway needs to be attractive to new customers and 'non-expert' customers as well as those of us who know what we're doing. It is very apparent from conversations with colleagues who use the railway infrequently and ask me for ticket advice, that they find trying to get information out of the railway *now* about what tickets they should buy is a highly confusing affair, to the extent that often they are tempted to give up and drive instead (though I usually manage to persuade them to stick with the train). That's not going to be helped with large-scale closures of ticket offices.
Did Northern actually implement DOO? There were months of strikes in 2018.
Southern went on strike when half their network was already DOO.
The world has moved on. Just because a TOC capitulated and agreed not to have implement DOO in 2018 doesn't mean that stands forever.
The Underground ticket offices were, by and large, replaced by Oyster which was a better option than queueing for paper tickets. It would not be that simple on the NR network.
I don't care about the payrise. I'd happily take 0%.
What bothers me is the destruction of our terms - multi-skilling most station staff and group station working being the most important to me. I'll vote no to any deal that includes these stipulations.
I want to see specifics - presumably the plan for this new multi-skilled role is five day working, which is one way of cutting staff, what's the plan for Supervisors and Station Managers?
What bothers me is the destruction of our terms - multi-skilling most station staff and group station working being the most important to me. I'll vote no to any deal that includes these stipulations.
I want to see specifics - presumably the plan for this new multi-skilled role is five day working, which is one way of cutting staff, what's the plan for Supervisors and Station Managers?
And a lot of them are.
No.
They didn't afaik. They agreed to a resolution to the DOO dispute with the RMT as I understand it.
Would issues like that be reopened after such a long time reaching an agreement in the recent past?
Except they can, if these proposed changes are agreed to on their behalf by the union (or are imposed through fire and rehire).
They will have to do the same as what they, and millions of others, currently do to reach their place of work at times when public transport doesn't run. Get there with a lift, taxi, bike or by foot - or most likely, get a car.
Only for shops and the like, not on the railway.
Surely the existing Station Host role at Chiltern Railways works out well for everyone?
The only TOC not at direct risk from an RMT strike is a TOC with no employees or contractors in the RMT.
At least this second order dispute doesn't happen with Network Rail.
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So they ended the strike by not doing DOO, in a time when the railway finances were rather better than today.
Kind of proves that leaving it to TOCs has achieved nothing.
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The finances are vastly different. Northern may also have changed ownership in that time?
As with ticket offices and Sunday working, leaving this issue to TOCs has resulted in strikes, costs, waste and not very much progress.
brad465
Established Member
Depends, if an election and change of Government have happened by then, a hypothetical Labour government would have to do a deal to limit strike action that it would get the blame for, as the mainstream media will be all over them.
Facing Back
Member
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out of interest, can I ask why you are so set against multi-skilling?
I don't know how that works.
There are many different grades across the railway and many variations in those grades.
I can't imagine it working well at my TOC.
The detail is lacking.
Closing ticket offices would be fine if it wasn't a cover to simply destaff single manned stations, but the ticketing system is too complex for it to work. They are putting the horse in front of the cart.
Multi station cover is already common at my TOC for some regions, but again there's no detail. What about travel expenses and time?
How will Sundays work? If it is coming I to the working week then we will need more staff, as at present it is all commited overtime.
There's nowhere near the information needed to know anything frankly.
Trainbike46
Established Member
There is no need to have TOCs like GTR and C2C involved in a dispute over DOO, as they already are DOO
you're also being disingenuous here when you pretend the problem is the RMT. If the current dispute was truly just because of the RMT, wouldn't the disputes with ASLEF and TSSA have been resolved?
Similarly with the issues around sunday working, why on earth would you involve TOCs that are already sundays inside or committed sunday in the dispute? Unless of course your only goal was to make the strikes longer and worse for some reason
No idea what that particular role is. But regards a multi skilled role, this was portrayed as negative by the RMT from the start so members probably have had no option but to assume this is bad news. Second offer and it's still there with most of the other stuff except DOO. If accepting this offer then what will all the non guard grades have been fighting for with regards defending their conditions?
Take somewhere like Wimbledon.
The way the vast majority of heavy rail users pay for travel is identical to the Undeground but heavy rail has a ticket office and the Underground has not for 6 years.
Contactless has since almost completely replaced Oyster.
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It is up to them whether they accept the offer. The disputes are still per TOC.
It's an easy way to cut jobs. Yes, some stations are over staffed, but that won't be where the line is drawn. At quiet stations I can see it making sense, but at busier stations staff will be expected to run around doing everything as there will be far fewer staff than there are now.
It points to a committment to work protocol. Basically they stay as overtime if they are now, but are forced unless you find cover. How this works regarding booking Sundays off or if you're sick for one day I have no idea?
Is Sunday pay pensionable if extra on the working week?
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The vast majority of tickets are now sold online as e-tickets. That's your replacement. It's got to the point where I get "wha?" looks from some staff if I present a physical ticket.
It's quite common at Bletchley for instance for the booking office window to be queueless with a bored person sat behind it while everyone walks in with e-tickets or uses the TVMs.
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