Elizabeth line: Commuters say service 'not what was promised'

[MCSHF007]

Actually ... on this line they are. The morning peak coincides with the peak inward flow, from all directions, of the long haul (ie more big luggage) flights into Heathrow. The issues seem to be mainly the inner west stations who find the incoming trains already filled by such passengers. Even in the peak arrival time there's only a 30 minute Elizabeth service from the main BA terminal 5, so the train can pretty much fill up there and at the terminal 2/3 stop.

In exactly the same way as Piccadilly Line commuters had to contend with the influx of bleary eyed long-haul passengers arriving at Heathrow c.06:00-07:00. I've been (self-) conscious of this myself having occasionally arrived from the US with a big (yet not enormous) case which inevitably gets in the way of good honest folk going about their daily affairs.

 

[thomalex]

Other times I get the Jubilee to and from town and I’m shocked at how lightly loaded it is now, pretty much empties out by Southwark and there’s plenty of seats by Bermondsey, so the Elizabeth line has soaked up a large portion of EC Jubilee line passenger’s.

It's certainly the Jubilee where it's notable. I think most thought the EL primarily as relief to the Central line but given it runs to Whitechapel (interchange with Overground replacing Canada Water), Canary Wharf, Woolwich (previously a key route was to Canning Town and interchange with DLR) and of course Stratford, it really doubles up a lot of what the Jubilee line was doing. And this of course is a good thing as previously it was chronically overloaded at peak times.

Out of interest has anyone been on the DLR to/from Woolwich recently? I can imagine this is very quiet now

 

[NorthKent1989]

It's certainly the Jubilee where it's notable. I think most thought the EL primarily as relief to the Central line but given it runs to Whitechapel (interchange with Overground replacing Canada Water), Canary Wharf, Woolwich (previously a key route was to Canning Town and interchange with DLR) and of course Stratford, it really doubles up a lot of what the Jubilee line was doing. And this of course is a good thing as previously it was chronically overloaded at peak times.

Out of interest has anyone been on the DLR to/from Woolwich recently? I can imagine this is very quiet now

The DLR Woolwich Branch has been a bit quieter, especially the services to Bank and Canary Wharf, the Stratford service still has good loadings though, presumably because this route doesn’t parallel the Elizabeth line.

 

[AM9]

Out of interest has anyone been on the DLR to/from Woolwich recently? I can imagine this is very quiet now

Maybe it will become a more local trip service as far as Canning Town or even Stratford. Both of those would require a change if starting on the Lizzie.

 

[grandgarrande]

In the may timetable, the Heathrow T5 trains will not be stopping at Hanwell, West Ealing or Acton Main Line.

 

[thomalex]

The Heathrow T5 trains will not be stopping at Hanwell, West Ealing or Acton Main Line.

I presume this is when the new timetable comes in. If so which services will stop at these stations then? As far as I'm aware at present the longer distance Reading trains skip them and the Heathrow trains stop at them.

 

[TrainSailing]

The journey times between Ealing Broadway/AML and Paddington are a complete joke. A journey that used to take 7/8 mins max can now take close to 20 on some services. Hugely increasing journey times into central London from all the west stations.

 

[Taunton]

One wonders why there is so much difficulty merging in services at Paddington, when that is not the case at the other end, at Stepney Junction, with the Shenfield and Abbey Wood lines, which from my experience come together alternately and quite seamlessly.

Bear in mind this is a line originally intended to open in 2018, so it's not as if there wasn't the time to arrange other services on the GWML appropriately.

 

[AlterEgo]

Maybe it will become a more local trip service as far as Canning Town or even Stratford. Both of those would require a change if starting on the Lizzie.

That’s exactly what is happening. I live in Woolwich.

 

[Snow1964]

In the may timetable, the Heathrow T5 trains will not be stopping at Hanwell, West Ealing or Acton Main Line.

And that is part of the the complaint that started the thread, was rather advertised for many years as a regular service with branches to Heathrow and Maidenhead with all stations shown on map equally.

I must admit I have looked back at some old publicity and no where does it show stations being avoided or skipped. It might well have in the detailed documents but seems to have been omitted from summary and quick view documents that were most common.

 

[johntea]

Maybe alight at a couple of the core stations to marvel at the architecture too? Those stations are a work of genius, how they got it all built in such a busy place, it's worth stopping for a brief period just to take it all in!

I managed to sneak in a little run very early this morning before my 10am train home!

Did Paddington - Abbey Wood, then fancied a DLR so caught that from Canary Wharf to Stratford and then back on Liz to Liverpool Street before a final hop to Farringdon for a ThamesLink to St Pancras just because why not

I couldn’t believe my eyes when I saw the escalators at Liverpool Street! Shame I didn’t check out Bond Street, I really wanted a go in the futuristic version of the Scarborough Tramway lift too but I thought it best to leave it free for people who might actually need to use it for non novelty purposes

 

[JonathanH]

One wonders why there is so much difficulty merging in services at Paddington, when that is not the case at the other end, at Stepney Junction, with the Shenfield and Abbey Wood lines, which from my experience come together alternately and quite seamlessly.

Fairly obvious that the timetable was set up to make the Shenfield and Abbey Wood lines work and the Paddington times won't work until a recast is possible - the way Paddington works clearly requires services from the West to be the right distance apart for the frequency of services to Abbey Wood.

And that is part of the the complaint that started the thread, was rather advertised for many years as a regular service with branches to Heathrow and Maidenhead with all stations shown on map equally.

Is it more important to have sensible journey times to stations west of West Drayton or for the inner stations to have 14tph?

I'm pretty sure that charts have shown timetable patterns with stations missed, although maybe not the most basic ones. Moreover, the traditional pattern of service has omitted smaller stations, not least because the loadings aren't going to be consistent if a train has come from 20 miles away to one that has come from 5 miles away.

 

[matt_world2004]

The hoardings around stations in the west used to show the frequency of service from each station. It was pretty obvious that there was going to be skip stopping when stations like Hayes and Ealing Broadway were shown to be getting a service every 5 minutes and stations like Hanwell were shown to be getting a service every 15 minutes.

 

[Horizon22]

Actually ... on this line they are. The morning peak coincides with the peak inward flow, from all directions, of the long haul (ie more big luggage) flights into Heathrow. The issues seem to be mainly the inner west stations who find the incoming trains already filled by such passengers. Even in the peak arrival time there's only a 30 minute Elizabeth service from the main BA terminal 5, so the train can pretty much fill up there and at the terminal 2/3 stop.

Well in my experience there aren't many suitcases at that time. Sure there's some, but not as many as at other times of the day although I take your point it is steady.

The fact is those inner stations have always had to deal with only ever being served by a Heathrow train (or Hayes as it was for a while). There is no peak/off-peak service for those stations, which might be more of a concern. But it would be about where you would run that from given the capacity constraints and how big a draw Heathrow is for passengers and its importance financially of keeping that strong link.

One wonders why there is so much difficulty merging in services at Paddington, when that is not the case at the other end, at Stepney Junction, with the Shenfield and Abbey Wood lines, which from my experience come together alternately and quite seamlessly.

Bear in mind this is a line originally intended to open in 2018, so it's not as if there wasn't the time to arrange other services on the GWML appropriately.

How many times has this been mentioned in so many threads? NR didn't want to commit to a December '22 timetable change for all the GWML with the uncertainty around Crossrail. You mention "since 2018" but it was constantly pushed back and you can't plan for a service into the central section when it terminates at Paddington as your turnaround times would be totally out of kilter. Also the service wasn't at even intervals like it is on the GEML (every 7-8 minutes) which also causes issues.

As a result, the old timetable is "slapped on top" of the new one which mandates even headways within the central section. As often happens when you try to fit a square peg, into a round hole, it doesn't quite work. The GWML needs a complete rewrite taking into account GWR semi-fast stoppers and freight to get this to occur, and this will not happen until May '23. This temporary (and 6 months is in the grand scheme of things), but admittedly annoying wait is the price to pay for the through service running as soon as feasible.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jan 2023 ==

In the may timetable, the Heathrow T5 trains will not be stopping at Hanwell, West Ealing or Acton Main Line.

West Ealing keeps the call.

The May timetable has 6tph to Heathrow and 6tph towards Maidenhead and Reading at peak. There really isn't capacity for anything else.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jan 2023 ==

I must admit I have looked back at some old publicity and no where does it show stations being avoided or skipped. It might well have in the detailed documents but seems to have been omitted from summary and quick view documents that were most common.

An arrangement that has been in place for many, many years back when GWR ran the service. It shouldn't come as a surprise, but, given London's population churn this might be new to many people.

 

[Techniquest]

I managed to sneak in a little run very early this morning before my 10am train home!

Did Paddington - Abbey Wood, then fancied a DLR so caught that from Canary Wharf to Stratford and then back on Liz to Liverpool Street before a final hop to Farringdon for a ThamesLink to St Pancras just because why not

I couldn’t believe my eyes when I saw the escalators at Liverpool Street! Shame I didn’t check out Bond Street, I really wanted a go in the futuristic version of the Scarborough Tramway lift too but I thought it best to leave it free for people who might actually need to use it for non novelty purposes

I haven't used the escalators at Liverpool Street yet, indeed a number of the stations need a proper explore, but I remember being impressed at Tottenham Court Road and Farringdon (I did a walk around London between the two, in a typically-Techniques non-direct walk!) when I did them in May 2022. I like Paddington as well, but then I'm biased because I like the mainline station a lot too. Woolwich was my first XR station, having done a load of cycling around London first. I recall being blown away by the whole line, my first impressions going into the Woolwich XR station were very positive. I will have to check out Bond Street properly one day, I've only done it off one train and onto the next just to tick it off!

It sounds like you enjoyed your trip though, thanks for feeding back to us all on it!

 

[matt_world2004]

The post may 2023 timetable is up on real time trains. Hanwell isn't getting the widely speculated six trains per hour.

Some wierd tuff in it still (Like reading trains taking 15 minutes to reach Paddington from ealing broadway, while the trains stopping at acton main line take 10 minutes )

 

[Horizon22]

The post may 2023 timetable is up on real time trains. Hanwell isn't getting the widely speculated six trains per hour.

Some wierd tuff in it still (Like reading trains taking 15 minutes to reach Paddington from ealing broadway, while the trains stopping at acton main line take 10 minutes )

Only W. Ealing will get the 6tph. It's certainly busier than the other 2 although Acton has really shot up as people chose it over the Central line and substantial housing growth in the area.

I did a brief browse for the Monday and could only see 10-11 minutes for all trains no matter whether they had originated at Heathrow, Reading or Maidenhead. Might be some oddities at certain times of day - peak maybe?

Edit - yes some at peak waiting for a departure from Westbourne Park (9W62) - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L79536/2023-05-22/detailed

 

[iphone76]

Something else I noticed is that the Shenfield to T5 trains appear to skip Southall as well as Acton Main Line and Hanwell.

Good to see more Gidea Park to Liverpool Street peak extras are back. From what I can see they are running 6 in the morning and evening peaks.

 

[matt_world2004]

There is a 2257 from Shenfield to terminal 4 I wouldn't want to be the drunk that passes out on that

 

[grandgarrande]

Regarding train pauses post May 2023, It would have been rather optimistic that trains from GWML would arrive to Westbourne Park on time given how many delays it has.

Im kinda surprised that Heathrow T5 trains go to Shenfield however keeping everything at equal intervals it does make sense.

Oh well it was either 10tph at Southall and 4tph at West Ealing or 8tph at Southall and 6 tph at West Ealing.

Sneaky! Only 16 tph off peak rather than 20 tph. However trains are very quiet off peak so there isnt that much demand.

 

[lawried123]

The post may 2023 timetable is up on real time trains. Hanwell isn't getting the widely speculated six trains per hour.

Some wierd tuff in it still (Like reading trains taking 15 minutes to reach Paddington from ealing broadway, while the trains stopping at acton main line take 10 minutes )

Just looked at the post May RTT and it no shows no GWR trains stopping at Twyford. I just hope it's because RTT hasn't yet picked up the GWR timerable. The idea of no proper trains at Twyford fills me with horror !

Lawrie

 

[matt_world2004]

Just looked at the post May RTT and it no shows no GWR trains stopping at Twyford. I just hope it's because RTT hasn't yet picked up the GWR timerable. The idea of no proper trains at Twyford fills me with horror !

Lawrie

There's no gwr trains on it at all at the moment even at Paddington.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Indeed, Vienna for example.

Vienna is a paltry €4.30 from the Hbf on normal trains, and on through trains the Airport fare is often the same as the Hbf. The dedicated city-airport train charges €11.
Munich is €16 by S-bahn (no dedicated service), but long distance fares to the airport are often the same as to the Hbf.
Geneva Airport is CHF 3 from Cornavin, but arriving air passengers get a free ticket.
Stockholm is a high 320 SEK on the Arlanda Express, but you can do it for SEK 39 on SL local services with a bus transfer via Märsta.
Even the 24-hour travelcard is only SEK 165.

Meanwhile in Sydney, you will be charged AUD 6.65 (about £3.80) for the 1-stop hop between the international and domestic terminals (ie across the runway) on Sydney Trains, and something like AUD 19 (£10.86) to reach the city centre.

 

[Horizon22]

Something else I noticed is that the Shenfield to T5 trains appear to skip Southall as well as Acton Main Line and Hanwell.

Good to see more Gidea Park to Liverpool Street peak extras are back. From what I can see they are running 6 in the morning and evening peaks.

Yes but Southall still gets all the 4tph to T4 and of course the 4tph Maidenhead and Reading services. Not sure why Southall isn't served as its a busy station, perhaps it is a pathing problem.

They do exist now, but only 4 a day (2 in each peak in peak direction) at present but they are certainly well patronised with Liverpool Street being more of a destination than Paddington and the cxapacity is there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jan 2023 ==

Just looked at the post May RTT and it no shows no GWR trains stopping at Twyford. I just hope it's because RTT hasn't yet picked up the GWR timerable. The idea of no proper trains at Twyford fills me with horror !

Lawrie

I think the GWR Didcot Parkway service will be running fast to Slough where it crosses onto the Relief and then runs as it does today. So would be an even better service for Twyford, but I can't remember if that's the calling pattern that's been confirmed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jan 2023 ==

Vienna is a paltry €4.30 from the Hbf on normal trains, and on through trains the Airport fare is often the same as the Hbf. The dedicated city-airport train charges €11.
Munich is €16 by S-bahn (no dedicated service), but long distance fares to the airport are often the same as to the Hbf.
Geneva Airport is CHF 3 from Cornavin, but arriving air passengers get a free ticket.
Stockholm is a high 320 SEK on the Arlanda Express, but you can do it for SEK 39 on SL local services with a bus transfer via Märsta.
Even the 24-hour travelcard is only SEK 165.

Meanwhile in Sydney, you will be charged AUD 6.65 (about £3.80) for the 1-stop hop between the international and domestic terminals (ie across the runway) on Sydney Trains, and something like AUD 19 (£10.86) to reach the city centre.

There's also a premium for Heathrow in general now, as part of TfL's funding condition from government.

 

[greyman42]

Surely most, if not all, people with sufficient means to fly to a major city airport are also able, before they even leave home (thanks to the internet) to work out how best to get to the city, including to their hotel if applicable, and what it will cost? I certainly did that last time I flew to New York (and getting from JFK to NYC was far more hassle than any route from Heathrow to London!)

Yes, people assume that because it's the USA there will be a super efficient transport system at JFK waiting to whisk you into the heart of New York in 15 minutes for a few dollars. The reality is anything but that. Heathrow is much better served.

 

[Snow1964]

Yes, people assume that because it's the USA there will be a super efficient transport system at JFK waiting to whisk you into the heart of New York in 15 minutes for a few dollars. The reality is anything but that. Heathrow is much better served.

Not quite as bad as it used to be, still got the air-train linking the terminals, but can now get to new Grand Central Madison (opened in last few days)

It Just Got Easier to Get to New York City from JFK Airport

The new Grand Central Madison station offers a new way for travelers to get into the heart of Manhattan.

www.travelandleisure.com

But question of if Elizabeth line is better way to Heathrow, than the Heathrow Express is probably for a different thread. But I tend to be in the Elizabeth line should be all stations group (not like some trains skip Woolwich or some stations near Romford or whatever).

My view is the 345s were designed for closely spaced stations, so not calling has more negatives. But in longer term really need more GWR services running fast from Paddington to Hayes or Slough area then becoming stoppers to Reading or Didcot or towards Newbury. Even if it means sacrificing the Heathrow Express.

 

[class397tpe]

Only W. Ealing will get the 6tph. It's certainly busier than the other 2 although Acton has really shot up as people chose it over the Central line and substantial housing growth in the area.

I did a brief browse for the Monday and could only see 10-11 minutes for all trains no matter whether they had originated at Heathrow, Reading or Maidenhead. Might be some oddities at certain times of day - peak maybe?

Edit - yes some at peak waiting for a departure from Westbourne Park (9W62) - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L79536/2023-05-22/detailed

Any reason trains like this one can't pick up a West Ealing or Acton Main Line call instead of waiting around outside Paddington for 5 mins?

 

[Horizon22]

Any reason trains like this one can't pick up a West Ealing or Acton Main Line call instead of waiting around outside Paddington for 5 mins?

Hard to say without other trains being in RTT, but possible freight or a GWR service on the relief lines.

 

[matt_world2004]

Hard to say without other trains being in RTT, but possible freight or a GWR service on the relief lines.

Would there be one of these services during peak. I thought the reliefs between reading and Paddington were exclusively el during the peak?

 

[AL1875]

18 billion pounds, brand new trains and stations. Still complaining. Most people in my patch breathe a sigh of relief when they can be crushed onto the hourly 2 carriage sprinter into Manchester.